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viciousdinosaur
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
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 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| No, this is coming because of two things. First, for years now, Korean teachers have been spending a great deal of taxpayers money on vacations known as overseas English immersion "education." Now, Korean school officials want to see a payoff for their investment. We all know it's a joke because all they do is party and hang out with other Koreans during those overseas English immersion trips, but now someone somewhere wants to validate all of that money blown on paid vacations. Six months in Canada or Australia hanging around Koreans and visiting bars is not an effective way to learn English, but that's what's been happening. |
Not exactly. Those 6 month courses mostly comprise intensive study in Korea involving language learning and methodology but mainly the former. Judging by the number of comments on here about how poor Korean public school teachers' English abilities are, this would seem an ideal solution to the problems with English education and well worth spending tax payers' money on. During the 6 month period they may go abroad for a month or two but they continue to study in the English speaking country and are scheduled to observe foreign teachers teaching in English to further strengthen their skills in that area. Of course their evenings are free to do what they want and they can hang out with their Korean colleagues if they wish. |
You think it's a good investment to try and create English teachers in six months?
I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but I know that in the many language classes I took in public school, university, and beyond I was never taught by someone who had studied the language for six months. I was always taught by someone native in that language.
Grade 5-8 French: Native French speaker from Quebec
Grade 9-10 French: Native French speaker from Quebec
University German: Native German speaker from Germany
Post-Grad French Immersion: Native French speaker from Quebec
It seems the standard, in Canada, at least, is using native speakers. What makes Korea the exception that they think they can do what richer could not? |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| You think it's a good investment to try and create English teachers in six months? |
These are Korean teachers already in the system who have graduated from teacher training colleges, have several years experience in the public school system and are already at least intermediate level at English. Virtually everyone on here has already said these teachers should be using more English in the classroom so that is what the government is trying to bring about with their extra training programs. Your experiences in Canada are irrelevant, unless you are suggesting the Korean government sacks all its Korean teachers who are not completely fluent in English and somehow replaces them all with bilingual gyopos with Korean education degrees. |
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Dodge7
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| The King of Kwangju wrote: |
I'm a little shocked that no one has brought this up, but every Korean knows the real reason this is happening, and it has nothing to do with standardized tests, pedagogy, teaching English in English, or getting value for money.
It's because of the sex and drug scandals involving foreigners that Koreans are reading about in the news.
They've had enough.
It's taken some time, but Korean parents are now deciding that they would rather have Korean teachers (who they can trust) around their kids instead of foreign teachers (who they can't).
This is pretty obvious. I'm surprised that the Seoul gov't is taking such drastic steps on it, but look at those numbers: 62.2% of Korean parents would rather have Korean teachers.
They know that the English of Korean teachers is not as good as native speakers, but it's the devil you know, right?
eg: http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=222078 |
I thoroughly agree. |
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viciousdinosaur
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| You think it's a good investment to try and create English teachers in six months? |
These are Korean teachers already in the system who have graduated from teacher training colleges, have several years experience in the public school system and are already at least intermediate level at English. Virtually everyone on here has already said these teachers should be using more English in the classroom so that is what the government is trying to bring about with their extra training programs. Your experiences in Canada are irrelevant, unless you are suggesting the Korean government sacks all its Korean teachers who are not completely fluent in English and somehow replaces them all with bilingual gyopos with Korean education degrees. |
You don't go from being not good enough to teach English to good enough in six months. That's my point, but you knew that. You just like hearing the sound of your own voice.
This is what I'm suggesting. Fire all Korean English teachers. Hire native speakers to teach in the public system (of any ethnic background), but try to hire experienced teachers and/or retain experienced teachers by giving raises, offering realistic housing subsidies (not renting apartments for 500,000 a month and then offering only 300,000 a month to people who get their own place), allowing them academic freedom to plan lessons, showing them respect, and dumping all Korean keepers. If lack of training is a problem, develop and offer a training program for foreigners to become certified teachers in Korea. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| You don't go from being not good enough to teach English to good enough in six months |
That's just not logical. Unless you're saying non-native speakers should not be allowed to teach foreign languages at all, there has to be a point when a non-native speaker teacher becomes good enough to be able to teach EFL. So if you start training someone 6 months before that point then they will logically go from being not good enough to being good enough during that 6 months.
| Quote: |
| This is what I'm suggesting. Fire all Korean English teachers |
This is just pointless. You know it'd never happen so why bother even mentioning it. Not constructive at all. You're coming across as someone who's just arguing for the sake of it now |
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joseasian
Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:38 am Post subject: |
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I think everyone has some pretty valid points with regards to the original OP's post. However, I'm going to assume a major impetus for the removal of foreign teachers simply has to do with economics. With the ongoing international economic uncertainty, governments everywhere are looking for ways to trim down expenses. There's apparently a $10 000 difference in annual wages between a foreign teacher and a korean teacher. The annual payment made to foreign teachers on a yearly basis sits at $45 million in Seoul.
http://www.jejuweekly.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=2342
I mean it is also more beneficial for the government to employ Koreans and thus keep their unemployment rate lower. I don't think foreigners are really accounted for in the country's level of employment.
Just another thought to add to this interesting discussion. |
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different
Joined: 22 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:44 am Post subject: |
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[will edit later]
Last edited by different on Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:57 am Post subject: |
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In general, I think trained Korean teachers would do a better job at teaching English at any level than untrained NETs.
In general, I think trained Korean teachers would do a better job at teaching beginner English (especially for very young kids) than trained NETs.
In general, I think trained NETs would do a better job at teaching advanced English than trained Korean teachers.
In general, Korean mothers will tend to choose the teacher their friends will be most jealous of. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| As the slogan said in the 1992 US Presidential Elections: "It's the Economy stupid"... |
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viciousdinosaur
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
In general, I think trained Korean teachers would do a better job at teaching English at any level than untrained NETs.
In general, I think trained Korean teachers would do a better job at teaching beginner English (especially for very young kids) than trained NETs.
In general, I think trained NETs would do a better job at teaching advanced English than trained Korean teachers.
In general, Korean mothers will tend to choose the teacher their friends will be most jealous of. |
Get real. Who would you rather learn Korean from, a Korean, or a white guy who has never been to Korea, but went to a study camp for six months?
I wouldn't pay a white guy to teach me Korean in a million years, wouldn't matter if he was born and raised here. And I imagine that's exactly how they feel. |
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viciousdinosaur
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| As the slogan said in the 1992 US Presidential Elections: "It's the Economy stupid"... |
Yeah too bad I was 9. Must have a been a good one though, seeing as people keep quoting it 20 years later. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Well, it seemed like the survey could have been there to provide the mothers with a loaded question. They quite possibly already wanted to axe those foreign teachers before the mothers were "aksed" that question. They will probably replace the foreigners and not save anything. The Japanese have long had the JET program, and they have people with similar qualifications. Why can't they get it right without having to make excuses to get rid of those foreign teachers. It's ridiculous. If the Japanese can handle the JET program and do fine without major complaints, then why can't SMOE? And why phrase that question to the mothers that way? I don't blame 'em for how they answered it. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| viciousdinosaur wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| As the slogan said in the 1992 US Presidential Elections: "It's the Economy stupid"... |
Yeah too bad I was 9. Must have a been a good one though, seeing as people keep quoting it 20 years later. |
It was a good one and it got Good ole Bill Clinton elected.
The slogan is funny but also true.
The likeliest reason Korea is cutting back SMOE and eventually EPIK programs is the economic slowdown. Not some idiotic report (or reports) about some foreigners who got drunk or used drugs. They are likely cutting these programs because for the most part they are publically funded (ya know with taxpayers money) and what government on Earth would keep funding such programs in a time of economic slowdown when citizens may need the money a whole lot more?
Still, people have a right to believe whatever they like!
Adventurer, the JET program is slightly different from EPIK and has been scaled back over the years. It also is a lot harder to get into that EPIK or SMOE ever was.
Compared to 2004 (over 6000 hired), the program has hired 2000 fewer foreign teachers (a bit over 4000 hired in 2011) for example. In 2010 it came up for review and the government discussed cutting it all-together in order to save money that could be better used elsewhere. The program is in jeopardy and stands a high chance of being gutted due to economic issues.
As for no complaints, think again! My brother worked for JET in Japan years ago...his placement? A tiny rural school where his "job" was to sit at a desk in the hallway of the school and be available for "free conversation" with students who wanted to talk and when in class (twice a week) to repeat what the Japanese English Teacher said, word for word, in English. He lasted one year and moved on to other work as he was fluent in Japanese.
Last edited by PatrickGHBusan on Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| viciousdinosaur wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
In general, I think trained Korean teachers would do a better job at teaching English at any level than untrained NETs.
In general, I think trained Korean teachers would do a better job at teaching beginner English (especially for very young kids) than trained NETs.
In general, I think trained NETs would do a better job at teaching advanced English than trained Korean teachers.
In general, Korean mothers will tend to choose the teacher their friends will be most jealous of. |
Get real. Who would you rather learn Korean from, a Korean, or a white guy who has never been to Korea, but went to a study camp for six months?
I wouldn't pay a white guy to teach me Korean in a million years, wouldn't matter if he was born and raised here. And I imagine that's exactly how they feel. |
While some may feel this way, I'd guess there are many who feel quite the opposite.
I've had more wasted hours trying to learn Korean from Koreans than I can shake a stick at.
6 months is not enough, on this I agree with you.
But Korean teachers do have a role and you are only deluding yourself
by suggesting otherwise.
I've had many a time when Korean teachers couldn't explain a certain point to me but it took a white guy who had been through the same things I was going through to be able to explain it.
Granted, that white guy had studied for 4 - 5 years, but most Korean English teachers have studied English for several years already.
By the way, I had several French teachers in Canada who weren't native speakers. (even in university) They had studied for many years though and were fluent in French. (I think that is the key)
As for which levels NT's would do best at, that is an individual thing.
Some NT's are better with elementary levels than older students, some are better with kindergarten kids, some are better with adults. Each have their own talents and making such broad assumptions is foolishness. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| viciousdinosaur wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
In general, I think trained Korean teachers would do a better job at teaching English at any level than untrained NETs.
In general, I think trained Korean teachers would do a better job at teaching beginner English (especially for very young kids) than trained NETs.
In general, I think trained NETs would do a better job at teaching advanced English than trained Korean teachers.
In general, Korean mothers will tend to choose the teacher their friends will be most jealous of. |
Get real. Who would you rather learn Korean from, a Korean, or a white guy who has never been to Korea, but went to a study camp for six months?
I wouldn't pay a white guy to teach me Korean in a million years, wouldn't matter if he was born and raised here. And I imagine that's exactly how they feel. |
While some may feel this way, I'd guess there are many who feel quite the opposite.
I've had more wasted hours trying to learn Korean from Koreans than I can shake a stick at.
6 months is not enough, on this I agree with you.
But Korean teachers do have a role and you are only deluding yourself
by suggesting otherwise.
I've had many a time when Korean teachers couldn't explain a certain point to me but it took a white guy who had been through the same things I was going through to be able to explain it.
Granted, that white guy had studied for 4 - 5 years, but most Korean English teachers have studied English for several years already.
By the way, I had several French teachers in Canada who weren't native speakers. (even in university) They had studied for many years though and were fluent in French. (I think that is the key)
As for which levels NT's would do best at, that is an individual thing.
Some NT's are better with elementary levels than older students, some are better with kindergarten kids, some are better with adults. Each have their own talents and making such broad assumptions is foolishness. |
Good points. |
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