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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I'm alright with the guy getting thrown out and calling it bad sportsmanship.
But I wonder if everyone here would have the same reaction if someone held up a "Free Tibet" banner. |
well first of all it wasn't just "someone" it was one of the officially entered players who agree to play by the rules.
and as another poster already pointed out, it would have meant more in the long run to have the sign in English.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-19234407 |
Right, so if the someone was an athlete, say an American, competing against China and they held up a "Free Tibet" or "Free Ai WeiWei" would people have the same reaction? And if should they hold it up in English or in Chinese? |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| luckylady wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I'm alright with the guy getting thrown out and calling it bad sportsmanship.
But I wonder if everyone here would have the same reaction if someone held up a "Free Tibet" banner. |
well first of all it wasn't just "someone" it was one of the officially entered players who agree to play by the rules.
and as another poster already pointed out, it would have meant more in the long run to have the sign in English.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-19234407 |
Right, so if the someone was an athlete, say an American, competing against China and they held up a "Free Tibet" or "Free Ai WeiWei" would people have the same reaction? And if should they hold it up in English or in Chinese? |
I absolutely would. It is no place for it.
However, I do admire the "black power salute" that Tommie Smith and John Carlos made in the '68 Olympics. |
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StudentInKorea
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I'm alright with the guy getting thrown out and calling it bad sportsmanship.
But I wonder if everyone here would have the same reaction if someone held up a "Free Tibet" banner. |
I would have a lot more sympathy for someone who simply wish to compete for what he considers his own flag. The strongest case would be if someone from Taiwan were to protest because they are not allowed to compete with a Taiwanese flag, but I could to a lesser degree understand someone from Tibet as well.
Dokdo on the other hand has absolutely nothing to do with the Olympics, and losing his bronze medal seems like a fitting penalty for me. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| considers his own flag |
I had a short conversation about this incident with one of my students tonight.
According to her, the athlete didn't even read the poster he was given. He just held up some paper handed to him by someone from the audience.
I asked if she believed that.
She said, "No."
But her 'further point' was that previously 3 Japanese athletes (gymnists?) wore uniforms displaying the World War II flag which, according to her, the US and others have banned.
I have no idea about that. I could not possibly care less. It doesn't matter. One does not cancel the other. |
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StudentInKorea
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:55 am Post subject: |
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I have no idea why you quoted me, but I agree with what you say. My point was just that it would be a political statement (and therefore illegal) for a person from Taiwan or Tibet to wave their own flag, but it is still something I would have sympathy for.
I can understand how some can be upset that the Japanese use the rising sun, but the rising sun hasn't only been used as a World War II flag, so it is not completely unreasonable for the Japanese to use it either. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| StudentInKorea wrote: |
| it would be a political statement (and therefore illegal) for a person from Taiwan or Tibet to wave their own flag |
It would only be "illegal" to Chinese people.
In reality most countries either officially or unofficially recognize taiwan as an independent state. That is actually more than can be said for poor Tibet.
| LuckyLady wrote: |
you are joking, right? apartheid was and will always be about human rights.
learn the difference. |
Its still politics. The IOC banned a country from international competition for decades because it was fashionable to do so at the time. SA was a pet-hate of western nations, mostly because of its economic domination of gold and minerals markets.
While at the same time they let numerous countries with worse human rights records ....compete.
You seem haplessly naive. If the IOC was all about human rights they would not be letting saudi arabia or Iran compete. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| I have no idea why you quoted me, |
I generally just quote the phrase or sentence(s) that triggers my thought.
Sometimes it is in agreement, sometimes not.
I really object to people who just quote the whole thing and respond, expecting people to sort through what it was the first person said and relate it to what the next person said. It's a pet peeve. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| The IOC banned a country from international competition for decades because it was fashionable to do so at the time. SA was a pet-hate of western nations, mostly because of its economic domination of gold and minerals markets. |
Are you sure you are not revealing more about your own point of view than you are commenting on the situation you are addressing?
For myself, I can remember being quite upset about institutionalized racism and the South African situation and not caring a whole lot about gold and diamonds. Actually, pretty close to zero. As I remember saying to a South African in Greece once upon a time, you can choose to be a commie or not, but you have no choice about being black or white.
I am not at all impressed with the 'argument' that 'he threw the spit wad first and therefore you can't punish me'. It's sophomoric in the extreme. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I can remember being quite upset about institutionalized racism and the South African situation and not caring a whole lot about gold and diamonds. |
You were brainwashed by the popular media. The people behind the scenes wanted to destroy the economic prowess of southern africa before later moving in their own companies to suck it dry. They succeeded remarkably well.
| Quote: |
| you can choose to be a commie or not, but you have no choice about being black or white. |
People have no choice to be women in saudi arabia and Iran. But you don't seem to care obviously. You were more interested in trashing and impoverishing a succesful african country simply because it held a close cultural relation and fascination to the west.
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| I am not at all impressed with the 'argument' that 'he threw the spit wad first and therefore you can't punish me'. It's sophomoric in the extreme. |
We've gone off topic. My basic point was that:
a) The IOC does involve itself in politics
b) Its involvement is deeply inconsistent and hypocritical
Basically the IOC is the UN of sport. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote:
I can remember being quite upset about institutionalized racism and the South African situation and not caring a whole lot about gold and diamonds.
You were brainwashed by the popular media. The people behind the scenes wanted to destroy the economic prowess of southern africa before later moving in their own companies to suck it dry. They succeeded remarkably well. |
Nice try, but fail. Was apartheid racist or not? Was there anything, anything at all, that a child of black parents (or even one black parent) able to do to change his/her social status? Talent, skill, intellect, choice? Anything at all? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Quote:
I am not at all impressed with the 'argument' that 'he threw the spit wad first and therefore you can't punish me'. It's sophomoric in the extreme.
We've gone off topic. My basic point was that:
a) The IOC does involve itself in politics
b) Its involvement is deeply inconsistent and hypocritical
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You don't seem to have taught in a public school before. That's OK. Think back to when you were a sophomore in high school: young, ignorant, insecure, raging hormones desperate to impress the female in the seat beside you...
Throckmorton thwacks you upside the head with a wet soppy spit wad and the teacher doesn't catch it. You respond and get called down.
Who is guilty?
Parallel: You get all drunk and stupid and rob the local 7-11. Your friend Throckmorton is jealous of the money you have to spend, so he tries to rob a 7-11. He gets caught.
Who is guilty?
I contend that both are guilty but only one got caught in each situation.
Your point seems to be that neither should be punished because both were not caught.
Nonsense. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Was there anything, anything at all, that a child of black parents (or even one black parent) able to do to change his/her social status? Talent, skill, intellect, choice? Anything at all? |
You mean was there anything a black african could have done to improve their prospects?
Yes.
Be born in South Africa.
It used to (probably still does) have the highest standard of living for blacks in the whole africa. Especially during the apartheid years massive numbers of africans flooded into SA from all over the continent to get jobs. It was an economic powerhouse. Maybe they were restricted to living in their own communities, but more black africans had their own cars, for example, than there were cars existing in the whole soviet union.
If you really wanted to help the inequalities of Africa you might have focussed your humanitarian energies on the rotten, corrupt, genocidal starving dictatorships to the north. The IOC didn't lift a finger while Idi Amin slaughtered 500.000 in the 1970's. Neither did they ban Rwanda during its slaughter of 800.000.
But should white south africans dare to give their black population electricty? "ban them, its intolerable"
| Quote: |
| Was apartheid racist or not? |
Was the Roman empire racist? How about your conquest of America and annihilation of the natives? never mind your slave-owning habits.. Or maybe Japans occupation of Korea. Certainly the latter resulted in dramatic improvements in the standard of living of the occupants. Industry and the economy would never have started were it not for the occupation by a superior civilisation.
Has anything in history ever been driven by perfect motives? The fact is that we can say it is for the greater good, sometimes, that conquests happened and certain peoples were subjugated.
Some empires extant today are hideously evil, their peoples live in appalling oppression. Yet I don't hear you or the int. community crying foul. At least you should admit that SA suffered disproportionate pariah status. Why didn't you foam at the mouth about Kim Jong Il or wear T-shirts protesting Mengistu? Because south africa happened to capture western imagination. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Was there anything, anything at all, that a child of black parents (or even one black parent) able to do to change his/her social status? Talent, skill, intellect, choice? Anything at all? |
You mean was there anything a black african could have done to improve their prospects?
Yes.
Be born in South Africa.
It used to (probably still does) have the highest standard of living for blacks in the whole africa. Especially during the apartheid years massive numbers of africans flooded into SA from all over the continent to get jobs. It was an economic powerhouse. Maybe they were restricted to living in their own communities, but more black africans had their own cars, for example, than there were cars existing in the whole soviet union.
If you really wanted to help the inequalities of Africa you might have focussed your humanitarian energies on the rotten, corrupt, genocidal starving dictatorships to the north. The IOC didn't lift a finger while Idi Amin slaughtered 500.000 in the 1970's. Neither did they ban Rwanda during its slaughter of 800.000.
But should white south africans dare to give their black population electricty? "ban them, its intolerable"
| Quote: |
| Was apartheid racist or not? |
Was the Roman empire racist? How about your conquest of America and annihilation of the natives? never mind your slave-owning habits.. Or maybe Japans occupation of Korea. Certainly the latter resulted in dramatic improvements in the standard of living of the occupants. Industry and the economy would never have started were it not for the occupation by a superior civilisation.
Has anything in history ever been driven by perfect motives? The fact is that we can say it is for the greater good, sometimes, that conquests happened and certain peoples were subjugated.
Some empires extant today are hideously evil, their peoples live in appalling oppression. Yet I don't hear you or the int. community crying foul. At least you should admit that SA suffered disproportionate pariah status. Why didn't you foam at the mouth about Kim Jong Il or wear T-shirts protesting Mengistu? Because south africa happened to capture western imagination. |
Defensive much?
Let's try it this way...was there anything a native-born South African could have done to improve his/her social status, or was skin tone fate?
It's pretty silly to bring up the Roman Empire. That died out about 15 centuries ago. We are talking about nowadays...you know, living memory. Time passes and humans advance in moral sensibility. Well, some of us do. I guess there are those who are stuck in the past.
I don't really blame you, since around 50% of American males are also going through an extreme form of cultural panic at the loss of power.
My only recommendation is to reduce the time at the gym and get cracking on the books. It's mental ability, not muscle power that makes the difference today. If you ain't up to snuff, then all you can do is accept that you are second rate. It's no shame. For centuries you insisted that birth is destiny. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Defensive much? |
Lose debates much?
| Quote: |
| Let's try it this way...was there anything a native-born South African could have done to improve his/her social status, or was skin tone fate? |
Skin tone is fate, to a significant degree, in several Asian countries let alone western countries.
| Quote: |
| For centuries you insisted that birth is destiny. |
It is, to some extent, in every country.
Every nation naturally forms its own superior class of people, which then seeks to perpetuate their priveleged position indefinitely by unfair means. Its just what humans are about.
I didn't see you wearing any T-shirts when Idi killed his 500.000. It was fine by you if thousands of innocents died, just so long as it was at the hands of someone with the same skin colour.
Instead, you singled out SA out of western postcolonial hypocrisy.
You thought that assuming self-righteous arrogance and dismantling racism in another country would exorcise your own historic slave-owning native-killing blood-guilt. The whole emotive racism thing touched a raw nerve in westerners...because of their own appalling history. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Skin tone is fate, to a significant degree, in several Asian countries let alone western countries.
Quote:
For centuries you insisted that birth is destiny.
It is, to some extent, in every country. |
You display the complacency of someone born to the 'superior' class, rather than as someone who actually did something to earn his place in society.
I'll admit that meritocracy is flawed, since moms and dads do whatever they can to skew the system in favor of their mentally-challenged kid, it is better than the rigid alternative.
I don't disrespect hamburger flippers at McDonald's. I just disrespect people who have a comfy white-collar job at 10 times the pay when they only have hamburger flipper mental skills, based on skin tone. |
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