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K1020
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ahh, thanks for clarifying the semantics, OED adds to that definition
"to do violence, to violate"
So violence is out but corporal punishment for educational purposes is ok? got it:
http://youtu.be/hMTXnf7mnZI
She looks like a real out of control, this guy better be careful:
http://youtu.be/8xfE5KwKx9I
Your dream school looks like a nightmare. Why do you want to hit kids so bad? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| K1020 wrote: |
| This again, I'm always surprised by posters who think violence (let's call a spade a spade) against children is some solution to the problem of violent children. Any grownup who wants to hit a child is not a fit educator and at least a lazy and disinterested parent/ caregiver. |
You're misusing those words again.
Discipline does not equal violence.
You also have no experience of corporal punishment, otherwise you would not making such sweeping statements. I had experience of both, and trust me schools employing corporal punishment were far, far ahead in terms of academic, sporting achievement, community responsibility and parent-teacher co-operation.
The type of school you idealise on the other hand, is one I went to. The sort where kids act however they please and disrespect adults. In between catching a quick cigarette and glue sniffing in the playground.
besides you didn't answer my statement. All authority ultimately stems from the use of physical force or at least the potent threat of it. If this were not so, countries would not have police forces to control public behaviour. |
There's really no reason to answer such a obviously false statement. Think of sports--coaches and officials wield great authority without the threat or use of force.
And even though police can and do use physical force, much of their authority comes from being able to punish through fines or jail time.
And as for the best schools use corporal punishment, do you really think they're pounding behinds in top private schools?
Your insistence on corporal punishment as the panacea to all student discipline problems shows a real lack of understanding and imagination. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Your insistence on corporal punishment as the panacea to all student discipline problems shows a real lack of understanding and imagination |
Did he say that? Most people who agree with CP think it should be a last resort as something to threaten kids who just ignore all other sanctions. And you're not offering a better solution to deal with these type of kids. It's a bit like saying prison doesn't work so other things should be tried but then not coming up with anything to replace it. Community service? It's a joke. Fines? They've got no money to pay them. Detention? they don't turn up, lines? They don't do them. In the end you just have to kick them out and let another school deal with it and it starts over again. Or you spend an absolute fortune on individual psychologists to try and analyse their problems and come up with coping strategies to deal with their lack of self esteem. While the kids are laughing at you the whole time. |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Let's all calm down and look at the facts.
Schools today all over the world are safe and controlled environments. I think this is because CP was discontinued. Until recently Korea still used CP and their school system was terrible. Thanks to our western ideals they have now done away with CP and their schools have never been better. One day they will reach the heady heights of excellence that UK and American schools enjoy, where teachers and students mix in an atmosphere of mutual respect.
Anyone who uses physical punishment is wrong, and probably a sadistic pedophile who has a small *beep*/breasts and can't attract a member of the opposite sex.
My inflated sense of self allows me to consider these comments facts, not opinions. If you disagree you are wrong. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Your insistence on corporal punishment as the panacea to all student discipline problems shows a real lack of understanding and imagination |
Did he say that? Most people who agree with CP think it should be a last resort as something to threaten kids who just ignore all other sanctions. And you're not offering a better solution to deal with these type of kids. It's a bit like saying prison doesn't work so other things should be tried but then not coming up with anything to replace it. Community service? It's a joke. Fines? They've got no money to pay them. Detention? they don't turn up, lines? They don't do them. In the end you just have to kick them out and let another school deal with it and it starts over again. Or you spend an absolute fortune on individual psychologists to try and analyse their problems and come up with coping strategies to deal with their lack of self esteem. While the kids are laughing at you the whole time. |
So, in the end, it's all about ego?
School discipline is a skill like any other. It takes knowledge, patience, practice, and understanding. You're looking at it from the wrong way round, starting with blaming it on "these type of kids." |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It takes knowledge, patience, practice, and understanding |
Just meaningless words. What are you actually going to do with a kid who consistently refuses to do what he's told? Know that he comes from a disfunctional background, understand why he's kicking the chairs over in the class room, be patient when he tells you to f...off? Once again I'm not saying CP is a good thing I just don't think what's been tried since has been as effective. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It takes knowledge, patience, practice, and understanding |
Just meaningless words. What are you actually going to do with a kid who consistently refuses to do what he's told? Know that he comes from a disfunctional background, understand why he's kicking the chairs over in the class room, be patient when he tells you to f...off? Once again I'm not saying CP is a good thing I just don't think what's been tried since has been as effective. |
Meaningless to you because you don't know how to put them into practice. Classroom management takes effort and knowing what you're doing.
What you're doing is making excuses--dysfunctional background (nice jargon to hide behind BTW).
He tell you to go f00 yourself. Aw, boo-hoo. He's a kid and he's getting to you, the adult. He's won and you want to hit him because you let him get to you.
First step--grow up. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:32 am Post subject: |
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Meaningless to you because you don't know how to put them into practice. Classroom management takes effort and knowing what you're doing.
What you're doing is making excuses--dysfunctional background (nice jargon to hide behind BTW).
He tell you to go f00 yourself. Aw, boo-hoo. He's a kid and he's getting to you, the adult. He's won and you want to hit him because you let him get to you.
First step--grow up. |
I haven't taught kids for several years now and when I did I was never faced with a situation when CP would have been a useful option. I was arguing academically from what I've seen and heard (in the media and from teachers) of the deterioration of discipline in a lot of Western countries and lack of sanctions available to teachers today. If you want to turn this into a personal slagging match I'm not interested. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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Meaningless to you because you don't know how to put them into practice. Classroom management takes effort and knowing what you're doing.
What you're doing is making excuses--dysfunctional background (nice jargon to hide behind BTW).
He tell you to go f00 yourself. Aw, boo-hoo. He's a kid and he's getting to you, the adult. He's won and you want to hit him because you let him get to you.
First step--grow up. |
I haven't taught kids for several years now and when I did I was never faced with a situation when CP would have been a useful option. I was arguing academically from what I've seen and heard (in the media and from teachers) of the deterioration of discipline in a lot of Western countries and lack of sanctions available to teachers today. If you want to turn this into a personal slagging match I'm not interested. |
Is "arguing academically" some kind of jargon for talking out of your hat? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| K1020 wrote: |
| Why do you want to hit kids so bad? |
Lol. Thanks for the laff.... ridiculous emotional personal jabs...the last resort of someone without a cohesive argument.
Now back to reality. I was partly raised at a corporal punishment school, I even had the cane myself one time.
Pretty simple story: you cane a few troublemakers right at the start of term and then there is zero problem for the next 6 months.
I'm talking a school where kids never give cheek to teachers,, and they actually offer to help parents who may visit. They excel at sport, they do very well academically. Probably very hard for someone like you to imagine. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| The simple fact is, no one has come up with a more effective alternative to date |
We've been through this before, so I don't want to rehash this too much, but in the interest of language...you seem to be using it rather loosely here...yes?
It isn't a simple fact...it isn't simple...and it isn't a fact.
Saying that no one has come up with a 'more effective' alternative...is again...suggesting that corporal punishment 'was effective'...which it wasn't.
It wasn't effective...but it was violent...and it was abusive...that we do know.
And the 'more effective' alternative is better parenting. Period.
Your kid doesn't want to respect school rules...you deal with him.
Anyway...and again...this is just a school thing...the 'fear of corporal punishment' does have it's uses...but not in school. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
We've been through this before, so I don't want to rehash this too much, but in the interest of language...you seem to be using it rather loosely here...yes?
It isn't a simple fact...it isn't simple...and it isn't a fact.
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Yes OK we can sit around debating the appropriate language to use to discuss the problem, like most left wing politicians do, or we can talk about solutions.
Don't want to get into Urban Myth style trawling the inetrnet for surveys but I think most people , in my country anyway, believe discipline in schools is worse now than it was before CP was abolished. I've never heard anyone try to claim that as a result of banning CP, discipline in schools improved. That's what I mean by 'more effective.' I've also seen it in action when I was at school. When a whole class was playing up there was nothing more effective in shutting the class up than the teacher smacking a couple of the ring leaders across the head. Now it may have been violence/child abuse what have you but it worked.
If you believe what you read in the media and what teachers I talk to say, discipline in a lot of UK state schools is getting out of control. Most people also believe that's why overall standards of education in the UK have fallen. And they definitely have. (read this book for some truly shocking descriptions. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Its-Your-Time-Youre-Wasting/dp/0955285402) Of course the parents are at fault for some of this but so are the people who have taken away all the sanctions teachers used to have and not replaced them with anything except the kind of language atwood was coming out with. With certain types of disruptive student that just isn't enough.
Last edited by edwardcatflap on Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:53 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| double post |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| kingplaya4 wrote: |
I could be wrong on this, but I don't believe corporal punishment was removed because the boards of education thought it was always bad. I think a few whacks on the hand for a student who's disrupting the class is completely appropriate. The problem is that teachers in Korea and in the US at times crossed the line and turned corporal punishment into beatings, which I think most agree are never appropriate, neither at home nor at school.
Probably the only way mild corporal punishment could be reinstituted is if there were cameras in all public school classrooms, and the principal or vice principal would have to review when it was used. |
+1. I'd suggest a principal or vice principal use it with a guidance counselor present as a witness. A spanking never hurt anyone. Teachers don't discipline, they ought to send you to the principal's office. Perhaps, institute some type of warning system and a codified list of punishments to match the crime and activity.
Also, some kind of guidelist such as interviewing all the witnesses, other students anonymously, teachers, ect. I suggest this because principals can become lazy and just end up listening to whoever's the most emotional or vocal even if they're the ones in the wrong.
In short, if mild corporal punishment were re-introduced in the west, it would have to be specific and measured. I'd think geared towards elementary and middle school. High school have none but you can be expelled more frequently for un adult like behaviour.
The only other option is to do nothing and instead call the police in. It is happening now. Read a story in an online newpaper about a year ago about a girl who poured her drink on another girl in the school cafeteria and the police came in and charged her. She had to go to court and testify before the judge. Is that really the alternative? I think a good old fashioned spanking would have been more quick, effective, and a whole lot less fuss. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It takes knowledge, patience, practice, and understanding |
Just meaningless words. What are you actually going to do with a kid who consistently refuses to do what he's told? Know that he comes from a disfunctional background, understand why he's kicking the chairs over in the class room, be patient when he tells you to f...off? Once again I'm not saying CP is a good thing I just don't think what's been tried since has been as effective. |
Meaningless to you because you don't know how to put them into practice. Classroom management takes effort and knowing what you're doing.
What you're doing is making excuses--dysfunctional background (nice jargon to hide behind BTW).
He tell you to go f00 yourself. Aw, boo-hoo. He's a kid and he's getting to you, the adult. He's won and you want to hit him because you let him get to you.
First step--grow up. |
No, it's about respect. When I was very young, students wouldn't have dared to say that to a teacher and now they will. When they say it to a cop or someone else when they're an adult, they'll get into a bad situation very quickly because they never learned respect. Classroom managment techniques are definately important, but there are a few bad apples that aren't appeased by those and need some discipline. The safety and the learning environment of the other students has to come first. |
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