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Netz
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Location: a parallel universe where people and places seem to be the exact opposite of "normal"
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 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed |
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| dairyairy wrote: |
This is a disturbing viral video. Should this be happening in Itaewon?
Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed
http://www.youtube.com/U |
It IS disturbing, in that it's disturbing to you, and others on this forum.
Think about this.
It's not your Western cultural relativism that is so abhorrent, rather your infantile conjecture on a myriad of elements of which you clearly fail to grasp.
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
It's not about an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people on this forum.
It's about the US Military personnel, and the problems THEY have caused in Korean establishments off post for decades. I won't even mention the criminal conduct against Korean citizens.
Anyone NOT in the US Military does not get a "free pass" when transgressions occur.
For the most part, the SOFA allows a HUGE amount of leeway for US military and DOD personnel, so wide in fact, most Koreans "know the deal" (Including Korean law enforcement), and just look the other way 98% of the time.
Just think of some things in the news that have been swept under the carpet over the years, that were perpetrated by US Military personnel stationed here. IF it had been an ENGLISH TEACHER who had raped, killed, or robbed a Korean, they would be in prison now, and it would have been paraded around in the media FOREVER.
I could go on about why Koreans just want to run their businesses in peace without drunken GIs making problems, and turn a profit from their work, rather than cater to the low income ESL teachers here, lol, BUT, I'm not going to do it.
As "harsh" as you may find activities like this, which clearly aren't directed at you, the good news is, SO MUCH of the racism that was here, is not nearly as bad today, than in days gone by.
Someone already broke the trail for you, and for that, you should be happy, because you only have to worry about a few clubs, in one district of the city.
The rest got taken care of for you.
Lucky you. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed |
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| Netz wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
This is a disturbing viral video. Should this be happening in Itaewon?
Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed
http://www.youtube.com/U |
It IS disturbing, in that it's disturbing to you, and others on this forum.
Think about this.
It's not your Western cultural relativism that is so abhorrent, rather your infantile conjecture on a myriad of elements of which you clearly fail to grasp.
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
It's not about an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people on this forum.
It's about the US Military personnel, and the problems THEY have caused in Korean establishments off post for decades. I won't even mention the criminal conduct against Korean citizens.
Anyone NOT in the US Military does not get a "free pass" when transgressions occur.
For the most part, the SOFA allows a HUGE amount of leeway for US military and DOD personnel, so wide in fact, most Koreans "know the deal" (Including Korean law enforcement), and just look the other way 98% of the time.
Just think of some things in the news that have been swept under the carpet over the years, that were perpetrated by US Military personnel stationed here. IF it had been an ENGLISH TEACHER who had raped, killed, or robbed a Korean, they would be in prison now, and it would have been paraded around in the media FOREVER.
I could go on about why Koreans just want to run their businesses in peace without drunken GIs making problems, and turn a profit from their work, rather than cater to the low income ESL teachers here, lol, BUT, I'm not going to do it.
As "harsh" as you may find activities like this, which clearly aren't directed at you, the good news is, SO MUCH of the racism that was here, is not nearly as bad today, than in days gone by.
Someone already broke the trail for you, and for that, you should be happy, because you only have to worry about a few clubs, in one district of the city.
The rest got taken care of for you.
Lucky you. |
Your first 10 sentences make an interesting point.
Your last 3 sentences contradict that point. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Netz wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
This is a disturbing viral video. Should this be happening in Itaewon?
Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed
http://www.youtube.com/U |
It IS disturbing, in that it's disturbing to you, and others on this forum.
Think about this.
It's not your Western cultural relativism that is so abhorrent, rather your infantile conjecture on a myriad of elements of which you clearly fail to grasp.
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
It's not about an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people on this forum.
It's about the US Military personnel, and the problems THEY have caused in Korean establishments off post for decades. I won't even mention the criminal conduct against Korean citizens.
Anyone NOT in the US Military does not get a "free pass" when transgressions occur.
For the most part, the SOFA allows a HUGE amount of leeway for US military and DOD personnel, so wide in fact, most Koreans "know the deal" (Including Korean law enforcement), and just look the other way 98% of the time.
Just think of some things in the news that have been swept under the carpet over the years, that were perpetrated by US Military personnel stationed here. IF it had been an ENGLISH TEACHER who had raped, killed, or robbed a Korean, they would be in prison now, and it would have been paraded around in the media FOREVER.
I could go on about why Koreans just want to run their businesses in peace without drunken GIs making problems, and turn a profit from their work, rather than cater to the low income ESL teachers here, lol, BUT, I'm not going to do it.
As "harsh" as you may find activities like this, which clearly aren't directed at you, the good news is, SO MUCH of the racism that was here, is not nearly as bad today, than in days gone by.
Someone already broke the trail for you, and for that, you should be happy, because you only have to worry about a few clubs, in one district of the city.
The rest got taken care of for you.
Lucky you. |
Your first 10 sentences make an interesting point.
Your last 3 sentences contradict that point. |
I disagree. Netz is making two separate points in his post.
The end is about how things changed over the years because of what Koreans and Foreigners did to change things. This does not contradict the point he made about the issues created by some US soldiers stationned in Korea. In fact, there is not contradiction at all. He also makes a salient point when he says that this is not about "YOU". That you being foreign teachers who feel everything is done agains't them and is out of pure racism. Netz's post shows its a bit more complex than that. |
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Netz
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Location: a parallel universe where people and places seem to be the exact opposite of "normal"
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Netz wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
This is a disturbing viral video. Should this be happening in Itaewon?
Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed
http://www.youtube.com/U |
It IS disturbing, in that it's disturbing to you, and others on this forum.
Think about this.
It's not your Western cultural relativism that is so abhorrent, rather your infantile conjecture on a myriad of elements of which you clearly fail to grasp.
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
It's not about an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people on this forum.
It's about the US Military personnel, and the problems THEY have caused in Korean establishments off post for decades. I won't even mention the criminal conduct against Korean citizens.
Anyone NOT in the US Military does not get a "free pass" when transgressions occur.
For the most part, the SOFA allows a HUGE amount of leeway for US military and DOD personnel, so wide in fact, most Koreans "know the deal" (Including Korean law enforcement), and just look the other way 98% of the time.
Just think of some things in the news that have been swept under the carpet over the years, that were perpetrated by US Military personnel stationed here. IF it had been an ENGLISH TEACHER who had raped, killed, or robbed a Korean, they would be in prison now, and it would have been paraded around in the media FOREVER.
I could go on about why Koreans just want to run their businesses in peace without drunken GIs making problems, and turn a profit from their work, rather than cater to the low income ESL teachers here, lol, BUT, I'm not going to do it.
As "harsh" as you may find activities like this, which clearly aren't directed at you, the good news is, SO MUCH of the racism that was here, is not nearly as bad today, than in days gone by.
Someone already broke the trail for you, and for that, you should be happy, because you only have to worry about a few clubs, in one district of the city.
The rest got taken care of for you.
Lucky you. |
Your first 10 sentences make an interesting point.
Your last 3 sentences contradict that point. |
I disagree. Netz is making two separate points in his post.
The end is about how things changed over the years because of what Koreans and Foreigners did to change things. This does not contradict the point he made about the issues created by some US soldiers stationned in Korea. In fact, there is not contradiction at all. He also makes a salient point when he says that this is not about "YOU". That you being foreign teachers who feel everything is done agains't them and is out of pure racism. Netz's post shows its a bit more complex than that. |
Wow.
Thanks Patrick, I never thought you'd defend my position, but see, that's how things change.
It does take time, and patience, and the willingness to let go of what you think "is right", in order to see someone else's point of view.
Just remember,
It's not about you........as much as you wish that is was, lololol, it's not.
They treat each other the same way, if not worse.
Sorry, it just really,
isn't about you.
Imagine if you had a Foreign army stationed in your home country, with bases, and deploying, aircraft, personnel, vehicles, you name it, all over YOUR country.
How would you feel about that?
Think about that scenario, and how you would react if the Chinese had military bases all over your home country for "protection", what your position on racism would be.
Furthermore, this IS a mostly homogeneous culture, I mean srsly, that's why they use the term "minority". This isn't the 47% minority of the US of A. It's 4.7 percent minority of "anyone who can get a visa" lol.
Wake up.
Really, and don't misunderstand me, I think you're right in principle, but you need to look around you, and adapt, because there's way more people who DON'T think like you here, than do.
lol
Love it, or leave it.
Good luck. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed |
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| Netz wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
This is a disturbing viral video. Should this be happening in Itaewon?
Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed
http://www.youtube.com/U |
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
It's not about an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people on this forum.
It's about the US Military personnel, and the problems THEY have caused in Korean establishments off post for decades. I won't even mention the criminal conduct against Korean citizens.
Anyone NOT in the US Military does not get a "free pass" when transgressions occur.
Lucky you. |
Eh, just put a sign up that says no military personnel like a lot of other clubs do. There is Tinpan that says "Only Koreans" then there is Mama (or it might be Papa, can't really remember) Gorilla which says no US Military personnel. Tin Pan is racist the Gorilla club isn't. Saying no military isn't racist, saying "Only Koreans" is.
The OP asks should it be happening in Itaewon and I say no. Itaewon does a good job of providing places for foreigners to voluntarily get away from the strictly Korean areas where they may not be welcome. If foreigners are no longer welcome in Itaewon (and I know, that is a long way from happening) they will probably start bleeding out into other areas of Seoul and more incidents will occur. Just my opinion though.
Were all those spaces necessary? Is there some reason your voice is more important than anyone else on Dave's that you have to take up half of a page on the forum? |
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Netz
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Location: a parallel universe where people and places seem to be the exact opposite of "normal"
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Netz wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
This is a disturbing viral video. Should this be happening in Itaewon?
Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed
http://www.youtube.com/U |
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
It's not about an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people on this forum.
It's about the US Military personnel, and the problems THEY have caused in Korean establishments off post for decades. I won't even mention the criminal conduct against Korean citizens.
Anyone NOT in the US Military does not get a "free pass" when transgressions occur.
Lucky you. |
Eh, just put a sign up that says no military personnel like a lot of other clubs do. There is Tinpan that says "Only Koreans" then there is Mama (or it might be Papa, can't really remember) Gorilla which says no US Military personnel. Tin Pan is racist the Gorilla club isn't. Saying no military isn't racist, saying "Only Koreans" is.
The OP asks should it be happening in Itaewon and I say no. Itaewon does a good job of providing places for foreigners to voluntarily get away from the strictly Korean areas where they may not be welcome. If foreigners are no longer welcome in Itaewon (and I know, that is a long way from happening) they will probably start bleeding out into other areas of Seoul and more incidents will occur. Just my opinion though.
Were all those spaces necessary? Is there some reason your voice is more important than anyone else on Dave's that you have to take up half of a page on the forum? |
I don't nee d to take a half a page
I just need to make my point,
but you did it for me, thanks.
This is the problem with the younger kids who come here with your soundbites, and ADD mentality, and can't grasp the bigger picture.
Wake up.
Stop demonizing people who who have been her longer that you.
We're not you enemy, we're actually trying to help you, but
I know
You already know it all
So, Why is my response longer, I've been here longer, almost 20 years now
Have a little respect, regardless of our ethnicity
anyway
you're still missing the point
it's not about you |
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Netz
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Location: a parallel universe where people and places seem to be the exact opposite of "normal"
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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would you rather I slammed into a TL;DR post with Zero formatting, and one God#*$^&% run on sentence with no end in sight, so you could have just blown past this?
Dream on. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed |
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| Netz wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Netz wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
This is a disturbing viral video. Should this be happening in Itaewon?
Discrimination in Itaewon: no foreigners allowed
http://www.youtube.com/U |
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
It's not about an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people on this forum.
It's about the US Military personnel, and the problems THEY have caused in Korean establishments off post for decades. I won't even mention the criminal conduct against Korean citizens.
Anyone NOT in the US Military does not get a "free pass" when transgressions occur.
Lucky you. |
Eh, just put a sign up that says no military personnel like a lot of other clubs do. There is Tinpan that says "Only Koreans" then there is Mama (or it might be Papa, can't really remember) Gorilla which says no US Military personnel. Tin Pan is racist the Gorilla club isn't. Saying no military isn't racist, saying "Only Koreans" is.
The OP asks should it be happening in Itaewon and I say no. Itaewon does a good job of providing places for foreigners to voluntarily get away from the strictly Korean areas where they may not be welcome. If foreigners are no longer welcome in Itaewon (and I know, that is a long way from happening) they will probably start bleeding out into other areas of Seoul and more incidents will occur. Just my opinion though.
Were all those spaces necessary? Is there some reason your voice is more important than anyone else on Dave's that you have to take up half of a page on the forum? |
I don't nee d to take a half a page
I just need to make my point,
but you did it for me, thanks.
This is the problem with the younger kids who come here with your soundbites, and ADD mentality, and can't grasp the bigger picture.
Wake up.
Stop demonizing people who who have been her longer that you.
We're not you enemy, we're actually trying to help you, but
I know
You already know it all
So, Why is my response longer, I've been here longer, almost 20 years now
Have a little respect, regardless of our ethnicity
anyway
you're still missing the point
it's not about you |
Um, first you said I made your point for you, then you said I'm missing the point. Which is it?
Blaming the US Military is a total copout because Korea has a pretty extensive history of being aloof and not welcoming foreigners. A nigerian or turkish person is not going to be let into those same clubs, and they have nothing to do with the US Military.
I'm not demonizing you, I'm just letting you know the format you type in is irritating and probably discourages people from reading your posts more than a few single spaced paragraphs would. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Being in one place for 20 some odd years does not automatically garner you respect. Being able to type coherently and in a standard format does help some. Notice the lack of run-on sentences here?
Not all of us are kids, toots.
As for the foreign army being in my country, if that foreign army were protecting me from a neighbor with whom I was at war, and the worst offense they committed was the occasional drunken brawl�a crime, I may add, that is just as common outside of the army�I'd be plenty grateful. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
Being in one place for 20 some odd years does not automatically garner you respect. Being able to type coherently and in a standard format does help some. Notice the lack of run-on sentences here?
Not all of us are kids, toots.
As for the foreign army being in my country, if that foreign army were protecting me from a neighbor with whom I was at war, and the worst offense they committed was the occasional drunken brawl�a crime, I may add, that is just as common outside of the army�I'd be plenty grateful. |
While not demeaning the U.S Army here, the worst offenses members have committed in Korea are way worse than a drunken brawl. Such as rapes and robbery.
To say nothing of murder and manslaughter.
http://www.iacenter.org/Koreafiles/ktc-civilnetwork.htm
| Quote: |
| Crimes committed by US soldiers were found as early as when US troops were first stationed in south Korea. According to the south Korean government's official statistics, 50,082 crimes were committed by US soldiers from 1967 to 1998 (including those by soldiers' families), and 56,904 US soldiers were involved (including soldiers' families) in these crimes. The statistics imply that the actual figure may be higher if taken into account those cases not handled by the south Korean police. |
| Quote: |
| A study by Ministry of Justice of south Korea shows that among the 39,452 cases (45,183 US soldiers involved) of crimes committed by US soldiers from 1967 to 1987, south Korea was able to exercise its jurisdiction only in 234 cases, punishing only 351 US soldiers. Among them, 84 US soldiers were convicted of rape and 89 US soldiers were convicted of murder and robbery. |
"But TUM" I hear you cry "Those are years ago".
Well here are some more recent stats for you.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/us-military-south-korea-status-of-forces-agreement-sofa-rapes-intenational-diplomacy.html
| Quote: |
| South Korean authorities cite a rising crime rate among U.S. servicemen. There were 377 alleged crimes last year, up from 306 in 2009, according to national police statistics. Between 2000 and 2010, rapes rose from zero to 11; burglaries from 9 to 24 and violent crime in general from 118 to 154, according to officials. |
Take that kind of history and ONGOING issues into account. Now imagine if it were Chinese or Russian soldiers in Canada or America and behaving like that. And getting away with it in most cases. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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So Netz and Urban Myth support "no foreigners" policies in bars and night clubs in Itaewon? Wow. Isn't Itaewon supposed to be a "foreigner friendly" zone?
Maybe the U.S. Embassy is right to issue alerts about some of these areas. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Netz, last anyone checked there's still a war going on between the two Koreas and the one up north enslaves its own people and has nukes. The U.S. military is here DEFENDING South Korea. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough, but it's a very small percentage, compared to the native population, when it comes to sex crimes.
Either way, it's Itaewon. It was made for foreigners so that they could have a place to escape the same cookie-cutter stuff. I wouldn't open an "American Only" lounge in Chinatown. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| dairyairy wrote: |
| So Netz and Urban Myth support "no foreigners" policies in bars and night clubs in Itaewon? Wow. |
Wow is right. How on earth do you get that from my post? First of all I was replying to a side topic introduced by another poster.
Secondly how do you equate my links about the U.S MILITARY with all FOREIGNERS? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
Fair enough, but it's a very small percentage, compared to the native population, when it comes to sex crimes.
Either way, it's Itaewon. It was made for foreigners so that they could have a place to escape the same cookie-cutter stuff. I wouldn't open an "American Only" lounge in Chinatown. |
Whether it's a small percentage or not is not the issue I was responding to...just pointing out that the military has committed many more serious crimes than a drunken brawl AND in the majority of cases do not face justice in a Korean court.
And as for Itaewon being made for foreigners so they could escape the same cookie-cutter stuff...that was a policy of the Korean government at the time? |
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