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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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 Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Cambridge is an examinations organisation. It created the CELTA. It is not a school and does not recruit teachers. Whether you stand by what you said or not, it's still inaccurate. |
Anyone is welcome to take a close look at the jobs that demand a certain brand of TEFL overseas, and they will find that they are somehow affiliated with that degree itself.
It's a no-brainer.
The CELTA is not the only culprit, no matter how they try to white-wash the profits. |
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aqm22
Joined: 21 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Okay, Celta debate aside, any Tefl cert with at least 100 class hour will do for now? |
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Guajiro
Joined: 04 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| aqm22 wrote: |
| Okay, Celta debate aside, any Tefl cert with at least 100 class hour will do for now? |
As I stated in a previous thread recently about TEFL certification, public schools in Korea are beginning to demand at least 20 in-class certification hours. This does not apply to hagwons, but according to the news section on the EPIK website:
"Greetings Prospective Applicants,
In recent terms, the application process has gradually become more competitive. At this point, it is almost impossible for level 3 applicants to secure a position with the EPIK program. As such, the most common way for level 3 applicants to increase their qualifications would be to enroll in a TEFL or TESOL course.
Currently, we accept a minimum 100 hour TEFL or TESOL certificate as a qualification criteria for level 2 or higher pay grade, regardless of how the course was taken. However, starting from the Fall 2013 term, when we recommend candidates to the POE/MOEs we will give a priority to the applicants possessing a minimum 100 hour TEFL or TESOL with at least a 20 hour offline, in-class component, as opposed to those who only completed a strictly online course. We strongly advise you to take the TEFL or TESOL programs including at least a 20 hour offline, in-class component. This decision was made to meet requests from the POE/MOEs and schools who wish to have the most qualified Guest English Teachers possible.
Thank you for your cooperation."
As others have said, a 120-hour certificate with at least 6 hours of observed teaching practicum is preferred in some regions (especially the Middle East, Western Europe, English-speaking countries). So if you're in it for the long haul a CELTA or Trinity TESOL type certificate is a good idea, in my opinion. If you want to work in public schools in Korea, a 100-hour certificate with at least 20 in-class hours seems to be sufficient. For hagwons, any old certificate will probably give you a leg up over candidates without. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
isitts, you have an interesting way of determining how you can recoup the costs. In Korea, you can get a job without a TEFL certificate. Chances are, the job you'd need one for doesn't pay significantly (if any) more than the job that doesn't require one.
For example, if having no TEFL gets you 2.1 per month at a job, and having a TEFL means you'll get 2.2 per month at another job, then it would be two years before you recouped the cost of the degree. |
Fair enough. But I think your chances of getting that job that technically doesn't require a TEFL cert are less without it. But, sure, looking at the numbers, I see your point.
I think it's interesting, though, that you think a TEFL cert is not worth the expense but that an MA is. Far fewer jobs require an MA and it would take a lot longer to recoup the cost of one.
And talking about an MA to someone who's just starting out is kind of like suggesting jumping from point A to point C...or D. There's no need to jump in head first. It's perfectly fine to get your feet wet first and see from there where you want to go. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| aqm22 wrote: |
| Okay, Celta debate aside, any Tefl cert with at least 100 class hour will do for now? |
100 for Korea, 120 (and likely not online) for anywhere else, as was answered on the first page.  |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| isitts wrote: |
I think it's interesting, though, that you think a TEFL cert is not worth the expense but that an MA is. Far fewer jobs require an MA and it would take a lot longer to recoup the cost of one.
And talking about an MA to someone who's just starting out is kind of like suggesting jumping from point A to point C...or D. There's no need to jump in head first. It's perfectly fine to get your feet wet first and see from there where you want to go. |
If you're in for the short haul (1 to 2 years), then no... I do not think something like the CELTA will be worth the cost.
If you're in the for the long haul, then yes, I think it is a better idea to think about getting an MA. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Anyone is welcome to take a close look at the jobs that demand a certain brand of TEFL overseas, and they will find that they are somehow affiliated with that degree itself. |
Ok prove it. Post a link to one job that asks specifically for a CELTA and not a Trinity or other equivalent cert and that also happens to be a CELTA training centre, and I'll believe what you're saying |
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McSalty
Joined: 14 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Anyone is welcome to take a close look at the jobs that demand a certain brand of TEFL overseas, and they will find that they are somehow affiliated with that degree itself. |
Ok prove it. Post a link to one job that asks specifically for a CELTA and not a Trinity or other equivalent cert and that also happens to be a CELTA training centre, and I'll believe what you're saying |
This one? http://koreajobfinder.com/jobs/cambridge-institute-is-looking-for-teachers/ |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
Anyone is welcome to take a close look at the jobs that demand a certain brand of TEFL overseas, and they will find that they are somehow affiliated with that degree itself.
Ok prove it. Post a link to one job that asks specifically for a CELTA and not a Trinity or other equivalent cert and that also happens to be a CELTA training centre, and I'll believe what you're saying
This one? http://koreajobfinder.com/jobs/cambridge-institute-is-looking-for-teachers/ |
1) They teach students for the Cambridge exams: FCE, IELTS etc...they are not a training centre for CELTA trainers
2) Just because they have Cambridge in their name does not mean they have anything to do with Cambridge ESOL exams (the organization that created and regulates the CELTA) I think if they were they would at least have a native speaker on the staff to write their ad properly for starters.
3) I would hazard a guess that, bearing in mind how little Korea recognizes or cares about the CELTA, that they are using CELTA in this ad as a generic
term for any month-long TEFL course with a practical element.
Have you noticed by the way that they are looking for someone with an F visa to work 40 hours a week with 3 days holiday a year for 2.5 million a month? Good luck with that. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
If you're in for the short haul (1 to 2 years), then no... I do not think something like the CELTA will be worth the cost.
If you're in the for the long haul, then yes, I think it is a better idea to think about getting an MA. |
So zero to MA, with nothing in between. Gotcha. Does the long haul start at three years then?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not against getting an MA, but I think there's a little more time and experience that can fit between the short haul and the long haul. Everyone who promotes these high credentials thinks you need to be at the destination without actually taking the journey there. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the job post, McSalty. That one gave me a chuckle.
Yes, isitts, I consider 3 years plus to be "the long haul." As I mentioned, the CELTA is not, by any means, a standard for moving any farther than a hagwon or public school job paying at or around (at best -- slightly above) a base wage.
I'll state this more clearly so the newbees here can understand:
1. You want a job that gives you more than 1 to 2 weeks of vacation per year, teaching around 12 to 20 hours per week? You want a job that gives you 4 months + of PAID vacation? Get an MA and work for a university. A TEFL certification alone is almost never enough to get you a university job in Seoul anymore.
2. After 2 to 3 years of working here, do you want your base pay to rise above more than just 100,000 to 200,000 more than fresh-off-of-the-boat college grads? Get an MA and work for a university.
Or, you can get your CELTA and maybe get a job that provides astounding numbers like:
Working days: Monday to Friday
Working Time: 1:00pm to 9:00pm
Working Hours: 40 hrs / a week
Salary: 2.5M � 2.8M
Vacation: 3 days year (Not included Holidays)
http://koreajobfinder.com/jobs/cambridge-institute-is-looking-for-teachers/
Oh, and by the way, unless you are: British or Irish, and are married to a Korean with an F-2 or F-6, you don't even qualify for that. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and one more thing.... you want to make big money in Korea? Some people actually DO make good money in ESL.
How about selling TEFL certifications? I hear that pays pretty well.
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Again, how many people earning 100-250,000 dollars a year don't own a car? |
Me for one (at the risk of getting flamed by various people) |
Source: http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2825684&highlight=#2825684
Although I'm not certain what Mr. edwardcatflap's job is, his obsessive pro-CELTA recruiting posts began to appear a few years ago, just about the same time that a certain CELTA training center opened in Seoul. Anyone is welcome to click on his profile name, view the past few years of his posts, and see exactly what I'm talking about. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Oh, and one more thing.... you want to make big money in Korea? Some people actually DO make good money in ESL.
How about selling TEFL certifications? I hear that pays pretty well.
edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
Again, how many people earning 100-250,000 dollars a year don't own a car?
Me for one (at the risk of getting flamed by various people)
Source: http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2825684&highlight=#2825684
Although I'm not certain what Mr. edwardcatflap's job is, his obsessive pro-CELTA recruiting posts began to appear a few years ago, just about the same time that a certain CELTA training center opened in Seoul. Anyone is welcome to click on his profile name, view the past few years of his posts, and see exactly what I'm talking about |
The only person who seems to be obsessed by the CELTA on here is you. You were the same under your previous username, always having a go at it and seeing conspiracy theories where they don't exist. You don't have a shred of evidence for any of it. I asked you to prove that schools offering CELTA training exclusively demand the CELTA for their own positions and you have failed to do so. Now show me a post where I am 'obsessively' recruiting people to do one.
I recommend it from time to time sure and I'll argue against people who slag it off, just like many other people on here because I think it's a good practical qualification for a newbie. With one or two exceptions, the people who have a go at it all the time are those like you who have never done one, resent the idea of paying for it so try to make out it's useless.
| Quote: |
Yes, isitts, I consider 3 years plus to be "the long haul." As I mentioned, the CELTA is not, by any means, a standard for moving any farther than a hagwon or public school job paying at or around (at best -- slightly above) a base wage.
I'll state this more clearly so the newbees here can understand:
1. You want a job that gives you more than 1 to 2 weeks of vacation per year, teaching around 12 to 20 hours per week? You want a job that gives you 4 months + of PAID vacation? Get an MA and work for a university. A TEFL certification alone is almost never enough to get you a university job in Seoul anymore.
2. After 2 to 3 years of working here, do you want your base pay to rise above more than just 100,000 to 200,000 more than fresh-off-of-the-boat college grads? Get an MA and work for a university.
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I agree with all of this and would recommend that if someone only had enough money for one qualification they should do an MA if they want to get a job in a university. I would also say that getting an MA and a practical qualification like the Trinity or CELTA, as many people who work in universities in Korea have, would be even better.
I would also say that in other parts of the word a practical qualification such as a CELTA or Trinity would be more useful than an MA. It all depends what kind of place you want to work at and in which country.
| Quote: |
Oh, and one more thing.... you want to make big money in Korea? Some people actually DO make good money in ESL.
How about selling TEFL certifications? I hear that pays pretty well.
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This line just shows that you really don't know what you're talking about. Do you actually know anything about how the CELTA is run, who profits from it and how? I know for a fact that the people who make the most money out of the CELTA are Cambridge (which is a non-profit organisation). Centres who run CELTA courses make very little, mainly I suspect due to the expense of having to fly a Cambridge assessor in for every course. They are also strictly limited with regards to the numbers of people they can train. The only place that offers the CELTA in Seoul at the moment as far as I know is the British Council. They are always oversubscribed yet they only run a course twice a year. if it was as profitable as you make out, why wouldn't they be running courses constantly throughout the year? The fact is, the CELTA is not really part of their objectives here in Korea and they're mainly offering it as a service.
The money I make in Korea is not at all related to how many people decide to do the CELTA and nor, incidently has it got anything to do with having an MA. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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If a CELTA center made very little money, then why would someone have an interest in opening one?
Out of the goodness of their heart? |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
If a CELTA center made very little money, then why would someone have an interest in opening one?
Out of the goodness of their heart |
Prestige I suppose - having Cambridge as a partner, being able to use the Cambridge logo for marketing etc... As I said before people don't open a CELTA centre they open a school first then apply for that school to become a training or exams centre. I'm sure some centres make more than the British Council by underpaying their trainers, having centres in areas with low rent or skimping on facilities. However if you run a CELTA you need empty class rooms for the trainees, and the lessons for teaching practice for which you can't charge the students. It would be a lot more lucrative for the centre to fill those class rooms with normal EFL students throughout the day for which they would only be paying the teachers. The real money for a centre is in exams, IELTS and the like, as there are fewer extra costs for assessors or trainers and constant demand. |
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