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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Unibrow wrote: |
| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| So what do we call first-year students now? Freshpersons? Fresh people? Noobs? |
Don't be willfully dense. You simply say first years. We don't call first graders freshmen, why should we subject women to this kind of prejudice? |
Your logic is sound and I have seen the light regarding this issue. We should write our congressmen and take the fight nationwide. It truly is an inhuman travesty with which no woman should have to contend. I will not rest until anchormen across every media outlet have cried out in joyous victory of our success!
Don't let others stand by and rely on brinkmanship to make light of this. Call the knuckle-dragging cavemen out on it! |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know who is worse: the people who care about the PC of a word or the people who complain that others care about the PC of a word?
I'll go with the people who complain that others care about the PC of a word. If the original word didn't have power than you wouldn't care about its change in the first place. The politics do matter to the anti-PC crowd and that is just sad.
Let me put in terms maybe you can understand better. You don't want others telling you what words you can or cannot use. If the University of North Carolina wants to drop the word, "Freshman," its their university and their choice.
See how simple that is.
And all I was thinking when I read the article was there go the Southerners again putting the interests of others before themselves. I say good for them and who really cares what UNC calls its first year students. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
I don't know who is worse: the people who care about the PC of a word or the people who complain that others care about the PC of a word?
I'll go with the people who complain that others care about the PC of a word. If the original word didn't have power than you wouldn't care about its change in the first place. The politics do matter to the anti-PC crowd and that is just sad.
Let me put in terms maybe you can understand better. You don't want others telling you what words you can or cannot use. If the University of North Carolina wants to drop the word, "Freshman," its their university and their choice.
See how simple that is.
And all I was thinking when I read the article was there go the Southerners again putting the interests of others before themselves. I say good for them and who really cares what UNC calls its first year students. |
There is a difference between agreeing with someone's actions and allowing that they have the right to do that action in the first place.
By conflating these two separate issues together as you have done here is one of those tiresome attempts to shut down conversation that you don't agree with.
Personally, I think anyone who objects to the word " freshman" is foolish, because to me language does not consist of discrete units of latent discrimination strung together, but instead evolves so that each word takes on its own mental picture in the mind of the user independent of the actual components or origin of the word itself. When someone says to me "There were a bunch of freshmen in the bar" I honestly picture a group of both genders, unless told otherwise. As would everyone on Earth EXCEPT those who want to trawl through the dictionary to try and literalise words in order to promote political ideals. That is ridiculous and goes against the very notion of what language actually is and how it is used.
Yes, the university can do what it wants. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing disagreement about it. You'd realize that if you didn't have an agenda of your own. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:31 am Post subject: |
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First of all, I am not trying to shut down discussion - that is your relative experience to my words.
I am trying to point out that the word "Freshman" does have political meaning, otherwise those who disagree with university's decision not to use it wouldn't be upset. It would be like deciding to call the university cafetaria, "a dining hall." No one would care. But, because the word has gender connotations, and hence political connotations, people get upset. It is the political ramifications (in this case gender neutrality) that upsets people, not the use or non use of the word.
And, I am sorry you are going to have to explain to me what a language "actually" is and "how it is used" - because I have no idea at what you are getting on about. Do you mean something like words accurately reflect the reality of the world or do you mean the meaning of words are subjective to the limited experience of the user or something else? Because, I really have no idea what you are talking about.
And, I honestly do look forward to the discussion. I am all for learning things or teaching things or both as the case may be. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| I personally prefer '1st year student'. Not a huge fan of the 'freshman', 'sophomore', 'junior', 'senior' labels. |
Thier traditional, I like them a lot. |
Traditional where? It's a regional thing. We don't used those where I'm from. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
I am trying to point out that the word "Freshman" does have political meaning, otherwise those who disagree with university's decision not to use it wouldn't be upset.. |
This makes no sense. Lets say some homeless guy sets up camp on my front yard claiming that its actually his land. If I get pissed off and force him to leave, this is not proof that there is a valid territorial dispute underway, is it?
So why is it, when people want to protect their language, or be allowed to continue using words they consider harmless, like "freshmen" without being tut-tutted by social engineers, this is somehow used as proof that the original assertion, that the word has a "loaded meaning"' is true. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I'm not even sure how you can argue it with a straight face.
Me: You should stop wearing red, because it is an aggressive color and it offends me.
You: Piss off, you idiot.
Me: Told you it was aggressive, and your behavior just reinforces the obvious problem with this nasty color. |
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Unibrow
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Obviously none of you have experiences what its like to be a woman in this world. Less pay no respect, and a world rigged against you. Small steps like this will hopefully change things. So many people here are stuck in the patriarchy, it's quite disgusting |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Unibrow wrote: |
| Obviously none of you have experiences what its like to be a woman in this world. Less pay no respect, and a world rigged against you. Small steps like this will hopefully change things. So many people here are stuck in the patriarchy, it's quite disgusting |
From another thread:
| Unibrow wrote: |
| Bro, be careful getting married. I was married once to a woman similar to what you're describing. It was great for a while, but then she tried to get a divorce and take all my money. Luckily, I had the best lawyer in the state and shut her down, but just be careful. |
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Unibrow
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| Obviously none of you have experiences what its like to be a woman in this world. Less pay no respect, and a world rigged against you. Small steps like this will hopefully change things. So many people here are stuck in the patriarchy, it's quite disgusting |
From another thread:
| Unibrow wrote: |
| Bro, be careful getting married. I was married once to a woman similar to what you're describing. It was great for a while, but then she tried to get a divorce and take all my money. Luckily, I had the best lawyer in the state and shut her down, but just be careful. |
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Unlike some of these PUA artists in here I still respect women despite having a broken heart. Hard for some men to do, yes, but I realize the issues they face. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Transmorgifier,
If UNC was penalizing students for using the word, let say $20, I would agree with you.
But, I don't understand why you care what word THEY CHOOSE to use. If the UNC wants to use a term like first year student or whatever instead of freshman, it is A) no skin off my back and B) kind of cool because they are making a stand for gender neutrality in language.
If you want to go on using the word freshman, I might think a little less of you, but I wouldn't really care.
The sad part is that the concept of gender neutral language scares some people. To be honest, I don't really understand why. Do such people feel it somehows demasculates them or gives women too much power if there is gender neutral language? Do they think the concept accuses them of something? Because it shouldn't. It is just a way to make our language more gender neutral. Personally, I don't see anything dangerous in that.
Again, if UNC suddenly decides that using the term freshman is taboo and people using it should be penalized, I would strongly agree that that is not right, an offense to free loving people and "PC going too far." But, if an institution chooses to use a word, what is the problem? And, what is the problem with gender neutral language? |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
Transmorgifier,
If UNC was penalizing students for using the word, let say $20, I would agree with you.
But, I don't understand why you care what word THEY CHOOSE to use. If the UNC wants to use a term like first year student or whatever instead of freshman, it is A) no skin off my back and B) kind of cool because they are making a stand for gender neutrality in language.
If you want to go on using the word freshman, I might think a little less of you, but I wouldn't really care.
The sad part is that the concept of gender neutral language scares some people. To be honest, I don't really understand why. Do such people feel it somehows demasculates them or gives women too much power if there is gender neutral language? Do they think the concept accuses them of something? Because it shouldn't. It is just a way to make our language more gender neutral. Personally, I don't see anything dangerous in that.
Again, if UNC suddenly decides that using the term freshman is taboo and people using it should be penalized, I would strongly agree that that is not right, an offense to free loving people and "PC going too far." But, if an institution chooses to use a word, what is the problem? And, what is the problem with gender neutral language? |
Wow, so much supposition about my position, asking questions that have no relationship to my actual thoughts on the matter. The fact that you STILL think that I am against UNC's right to do what they like, despite expressly stating previously that I am not, is concerning.
But I'll plow on regardless, hoping that something will stick for you.
To me, the fight for gender neutral language is a complete sideshow, and has no worth in promoting equal rights. Firstly, because I personally do not think most people equate the origins or individual components of a traditionally used words with the essential characteristics of that word. Does using the word "husband" today, which derives from a Norse word meaning "master of the house", help to keep women down, because when someone says the word "husband" the image in their mind that it create is of a man lording over everything in their home? No. There are some people who still believe the man is the undisputed king of the house, but the word "husband" has nothing to do with perpetuating that view.
When someone says "freshman", is the image in their mind a young lad in a sea of young lads in a boys only university, because that's who education is aimed for? No. There are still some people who think that women shouldn't be educated, but the word "freshman" has absolutely nothing to do with perpetuating that view.
But no, apparently, the word freshman is the enemy, because it contains the word "man". So does manager, and manacle, and manatee (how the hell do they keep from going extinct, seeing as they are obviously all men?).
But in freshman, the word man specifically referred to males, you say. Well, as I already pointed out, the word husband specifically referred to the master of the house. Is that in the firing line too?
PC language crusades do more harm than good. Individual words are easy targets for assassination, but do nothing to change values. In fact, I would say it does nothing but entrench them. So that is why what UNC is doing is, IMO, stupid and worthless.
But again, I will repeat, I fully support their RIGHT TO DO IT. In case you still want to equate the two |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Unibrow wrote: |
| Obviously none of you have experiences what its like to be a woman in this world. Less pay no respect, and a world rigged against you. Small steps like this will hopefully change things. So many people here are stuck in the patriarchy, it's quite disgusting |
Explain to me as clearly as you can how the word "freshman" as used today rigs the world against women. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| Obviously none of you have experiences what its like to be a woman in this world. Less pay no respect, and a world rigged against you. Small steps like this will hopefully change things. So many people here are stuck in the patriarchy, it's quite disgusting |
Explain to me as clearly as you can how the word "freshman" as used today rigs the world against women. |
I'll take a shot at this.
How?
By the simple fact that you don't feel the obvious force behind the word 'man' in words that do/did in fact refer to men.
How you perceive the word is upsetting to those who do feel it.
Gender neutrality in the English language would be an easy thing to achieve if it weren't for 'man'. 
It is not the same as PC language in general...as in the term
'We are pregnant.'
Expressions like that are insane. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| Obviously none of you have experiences what its like to be a woman in this world. Less pay no respect, and a world rigged against you. Small steps like this will hopefully change things. So many people here are stuck in the patriarchy, it's quite disgusting |
Explain to me as clearly as you can how the word "freshman" as used today rigs the world against women. |
By the simple fact that you don't feel the obvious force behind the word 'man' in words that do/did in fact refer to men.
How you perceive the word is upsetting to those who do feel it.. |
Sorry, but that is a ridiculous line of reasoning.
A: This thing is wrong.
B: I don't think it's wrong.
A: The very fact you don't think it is wrong is what makes it wrong.
I call bullshit on that. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Transmorgifier,
Things change. Words change. Language usage changes. Whether or not these changes as you asked in your previous post depends a lot on what people think and how people want to use these words.
So, the answer you are going to get for me, is I don't know if that will happen or not.
But, you did not answer my previous question which is why are you afraid of these words changing? Why does it really matter to you? |
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