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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I love how you refer to Zoltan, whom I worked with for years. He's a brilliant, compassionate man--and far from an ideologue. I'm glad to hear his work is making an impact. |
Great to hear that Mr Dornyei is a nice person as well as a great academic. I've always been impressed by his work. I wish I had studied for my MA at Nottingham instead of Birmingham. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Squire wrote: |
I don't think there's a need for fully qualified teachers to be in the public school foreigner position here. It seems in the vast majority of cases we work with a qualified KET at least some classes every week, which provides a chance to learn how to teach. Given the vast majority are teaching straight from a book most of the time that should probably be enough to effectively teach classes in an English speaking environment
Under qualified teachers in hagwons- supply and demand.
Whether we are worth the money is debatable, but I think there's no doubt we have a positive effect. The students who speak the best English are usually the ones with the most exposure to foreign teachers. The adults that speak the best English (from my own experience) are people who have native English speaking friends (typically foreign teachers) or who have lived abroad for a little while- very often paid for by their parents.
I believe without native English teachers in Korea the standards of practical, conversational English will drop significantly. It seems the majority of Dave's posters would agree, from what I've read here. |
The reality is that many of the Korean teachers who have teaching certificates to teach English cannot converse very well in the language while the native speakers, obviously, can. In addition, many of the native speakers are somewhat versed in new methods of teaching foreign languages on a subconscious level. Why would I make such a claim? Well, many teachers of foreign languages in North America are more in touch with modern methods and approaches when it comes to teaching languages and tend to use the target language much more than Korean teachers do.
The native teachers are qualified because they have diplomas, and that's all you need to be qualified according to immigration. Japan, with the JET program, accepts people with similar qualifications without making a fuss and the co-teachers actually make a major effort to assist the native speakers from what I've been told. Anyway, according to a study I read, there's not necessarily much of a difference between a certified and uncertified teacher. Of course, if you have a degree in linguistics or TESOL you would certainly have certain advantages when it comes to teaching a foreign language that others wouldn't have. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| Just by hearing a word you can guess how it is spelled |
You can guess but quite often you'll be wrong. Doubly so if you're a non native speaker. |
English spelling does not come so intuitively as say Spanish.
For example, if you hear the word maneuver, you might spell it thus: "manoover or manuver" and get it wrong. What about the word "grammar"? So many native speakers spell it thus: "grammer", which is incorrect. Our spelling has been influenced by Old French. That said, if a Korean learns English, that would help him pick up a Germanic language or a Romance language as English. |
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Unibrow
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Given that the Korean peninsula was arbitrarily divided by America and the Soviet Union, this was probably one of the worst pro-imperialism examples you could have picked. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Given that the Korean peninsula was arbitrarily divided by America and the Soviet Union, this was probably one of the worst pro-imperialism examples you could have picked. |
If this was the 50's-80's you might be right, but it's 2012. I wasn't being pro-imperialist I was being anti-chuche. I was also pointing out the irony. Why don't you actually explain yourself though instead of making blanket statements? Maybe you actually have a point. |
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Unibrow
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Given that the Korean peninsula was arbitrarily divided by America and the Soviet Union, this was probably one of the worst pro-imperialism examples you could have picked. |
If this was the 50's-80's you might be right, but it's 2012. I wasn't being pro-imperialist I was being anti-chuche. I was also pointing out the irony. Why don't you actually explain yourself though instead of making blanket statements? Maybe you actually have a point. |
What do you not understand? The Korean peninsula, in particular North Korea, has been negatively affected by American imperialism. South Korea was ruled by a brutal US backed military regime for decades. Due to the arbitrary drawing of a line, most of the farmland is in the south of the peninsula, making it hard to provide enough food for the North Korean people.
The US has more than 20,000 troops in South Korea, which is naturally worrying to North Korea. Not to mention the advanced weaponry provided to the South Korean army. As far as South Korea goes, The IMF is another vehicle of Anglo-American imperialism. It wasn't until they ignored the advice of the IMF that their economy really started to improve. To say that the higher standards of living in South Korea is thanks to the bountiful, generous nature of the US is pretty narrow minded and shortsighted. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Given that the Korean peninsula was arbitrarily divided by America and the Soviet Union, this was probably one of the worst pro-imperialism examples you could have picked. |
If this was the 50's-80's you might be right, but it's 2012. I wasn't being pro-imperialist I was being anti-chuche. I was also pointing out the irony. Why don't you actually explain yourself though instead of making blanket statements? Maybe you actually have a point. |
What do you not understand? The Korean peninsula, in particular North Korea, has been negatively affected by American imperialism. South Korea was ruled by a brutal US backed military regime for decades. Due to the arbitrary drawing of a line, most of the farmland is in the south of the peninsula, making it hard to provide enough food for the North Korean people.
The US has more than 20,000 troops in South Korea, which is naturally worrying to North Korea. Not to mention the advanced weaponry provided to the South Korean army. As far as South Korea goes, The IMF is another vehicle of Anglo-American imperialism. It wasn't until they ignored the advice of the IMF that their economy really started to improve. To say that the higher standards of living in South Korea is thanks to the bountiful, generous nature of the US is pretty narrow minded and shortsighted. |
Like I said, your argument would have two feet to stand on if this wasn't 2012. Unfortunately, it is 2012 and as you noted, South Korea is ignoring the IMF and other bullying tactics used by the USA so I fail to see your point. Your argument was relative back in the day but now you are going to have a hard time convincing people that the US Military regime is "brutal" (in South Korea) or that the South Korean people are suffering under imperialism. I live here, and um...you seem a bit delusional to me. Economically, the USA is brutal, but so is every other country. That is called competition. It sounds like you are scapegoating capitalism in order to hold on to some utopian dreams you had a long time ago. It's much easier to do that than deal with the reality that those dreams may have lead to numerous oppressive dictatorial regimes isn't it? South Korea boomed because it figured out HOW to handle western influence, without bleeding hearts like Philippson holding their hand, they did it themselves. I think they can handle ESL guys running around drinking on a friday night at this point.
So North Korea is worse off because it rejected American Imperialism and South Korea is worse off because it accepted American Imperialism? Maybe you should stop seeing Korean people as incapable of determining their own fate and hold them responsible for the path their country takes. If they made diplomatic, military, or economic mistakes then it is unfortunate, but at the end of the day I hold the Korean people responsible for the fate of their own country. The irony of a foreigner going to Korea to warn Korea of other foreigners trying to impose their beliefs on Korea is totally lost on you and that doesn't surprise me. It's kind of a, "hey, don't listen to those foreigners, listen to me because I'm a good foreigner" approach.
As far as English being a sign of imperialism, even if it is true, if it isn't English it's going to be Chinese or Japanese or Russian or something else. As far as native speakers go, anyone that wants to get as close to fluency as possible is going to be hiring native speakers. Anyone advising someone learning a foreign language to avoid native speakers is a fool. Hate it or love it, it has a lot to do with the location of this peninsula. Time to come to terms with reality and quit blaming the boogeyman. |
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JustinC
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: We Are The World!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Just by hearing a word you can guess how it is spelled |
You can guess but quite often you'll be wrong. Doubly so if you're a non native speaker. |
English spelling does not come so intuitively as say Spanish.
For example, if you hear the word maneuver, you might spell it thus: "manoover or manuver" and get it wrong. What about the word "grammar"? So many native speakers spell it thus: "grammer", which is incorrect. Our spelling has been influenced by Old French. That said, if a Korean learns English, that would help him pick up a Germanic language or a Romance language as English. |
Hey I didn't say guess correctly!
Good point though, that learning some English, even if it's just the alphabet and how individual letters sound could help you with another language (except the ones like 'v', 'w', 'j' etc in German/Spanish). |
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Spongebob Squarepants
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Location: You wanna see my caring face?, ROK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Zoltan supervised my MA thesis and is now supervising my PhD dissertation. He often quotes Sayre's Law:
"Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, precisely because the stakes are so low."
As a practicing Christian, Zoltan is usually very non-confrontational unless it is something he knows the talking heads are absolutely wrong about. Then he can be very acerbic in his criticism.
We need more people in the world like him, and fewer human specimens of this Phillipson genre. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="hiamnotcool"][quote="Unibrow"][quote="hiamnotcool"][quote="Unibrow"]
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
As far as English being a sign of imperialism, even if it is true, if it isn't English it's going to be Chinese or Japanese or Russian or something else. As far as native speakers go, anyone that wants to get as close to fluency as possible is going to be hiring native speakers. |
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2011/04/176_17601.html
At the end of a nine-year primary education program, Finnish students can leave the school competent in speaking English, whereas for Koreans, speaking English is a distant hope no matter what kind of degree they have acquired.
One interesting point is that there are, even now, no native speakers in a classroom ``All English teachers are Finnish, and they speak English the whole time, except when they have to explain grammar.''
Article goes on to point out that K-teachers gotta up their game if they hope to get decent results. |
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Savant
Joined: 25 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:29 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Dave Chance"][quote="hiamnotcool"][quote="Unibrow"][quote="hiamnotcool"]
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
As far as English being a sign of imperialism, even if it is true, if it isn't English it's going to be Chinese or Japanese or Russian or something else. As far as native speakers go, anyone that wants to get as close to fluency as possible is going to be hiring native speakers. |
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2011/04/176_17601.html
At the end of a nine-year primary education program, Finnish students can leave the school competent in speaking English, whereas for Koreans, speaking English is a distant hope no matter what kind of degree they have acquired.
One interesting point is that there are, even now, no native speakers in a classroom ``All English teachers are Finnish, and they speak English the whole time, except when they have to explain grammar.''
Article goes on to point out that K-teachers gotta up their game if they hope to get decent results. |
Unfortunately, Korean public schools will never attain the same level of student English proficiency as their Finnish counterparts.
Koreans (students and parents) are pretty much taught that only test scores matter. An ability to think and use English in practical situations will not help them gain entry to a SKY university.
The Korean education system is set up like a factory; taking in and pushing out like minded drones to work obediently and systematically in the future for the needs of the Chaebols. |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2011/04/176_17601.html
At the end of a nine-year primary education program, Finnish students can leave the school competent in speaking English, whereas for Koreans, speaking English is a distant hope no matter what kind of degree they have acquired.
One interesting point is that there are, even now, no native speakers in a classroom ``All English teachers are Finnish, and they speak English the whole time, except when they have to explain grammar.''
Article goes on to point out that K-teachers gotta up their game if they hope to get decent results. |
A lot of that article directly contradicts Phillipson's theory particularly "``Teachers (only) spoke English. If you had questions, you had to ask it in English. In the beginning (level), especially, you learn to speak without knowing much grammar,'' the ambassador said. This is still the same after several decades. "
and
"The task of the instructions are to accustom them to using their language skills and educate students in understanding and valuing how people live in other cultures,'' he said."
Also the population of Finland makes it incomparable with South Korea. We are talking about a country with 5,000,000 inhabitants being compared to a country with 50,000,000 inhabitants.
The articles most telling statement is "He then shared of an incident during a meeting with Korean-English teachers, which gave him a negative impression on the value of Korean-English teachers.
``If I had deviated from the text I handed out in advance, they didn't seem to understand,'' he said. "Even those who have good degrees from foreign schools didn't seem to communicate very well.''"
Truly a damning testament to the English ability of the majority of Korean English teachers. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| Seoulman69 wrote: |
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http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2011/04/176_17601.html
At the end of a nine-year primary education program, Finnish students can leave the school competent in speaking English, whereas for Koreans, speaking English is a distant hope no matter what kind of degree they have acquired.
One interesting point is that there are, even now, no native speakers in a classroom ``All English teachers are Finnish, and they speak English the whole time, except when they have to explain grammar.''
Article goes on to point out that K-teachers gotta up their game if they hope to get decent results. |
The articles most telling statement is "He then shared of an incident during a meeting with Korean-English teachers, which gave him a negative impression on the value of Korean-English teachers.
``If I had deviated from the text I handed out in advance, they didn't seem to understand,'' he said. "Even those who have good degrees from foreign schools didn't seem to communicate very well.''
Truly a damning testament to the English ability of the majority of Korean English teachers. |
Check your reading comprehension-
"Article goes on to point out that K-teachers gotta up their game if they hope to get decent results" |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Given that the Korean peninsula was arbitrarily divided by America and the Soviet Union, this was probably one of the worst pro-imperialism examples you could have picked. |
If this was the 50's-80's you might be right, but it's 2012. I wasn't being pro-imperialist I was being anti-chuche. I was also pointing out the irony. Why don't you actually explain yourself though instead of making blanket statements? Maybe you actually have a point. |
What do you not understand? The Korean peninsula, in particular North Korea, has been negatively affected by American imperialism. South Korea was ruled by a brutal US backed military regime for decades. Due to the arbitrary drawing of a line, most of the farmland is in the south of the peninsula, making it hard to provide enough food for the North Korean people.
The US has more than 20,000 troops in South Korea, which is naturally worrying to North Korea. Not to mention the advanced weaponry provided to the South Korean army. As far as South Korea goes, The IMF is another vehicle of Anglo-American imperialism. It wasn't until they ignored the advice of the IMF that their economy really started to improve. To say that the higher standards of living in South Korea is thanks to the bountiful, generous nature of the US is pretty narrow minded and shortsighted. |
I think you can blame China for the line actually. America had pushed back all forces out of the peninsula until Chinese forces joined in. If it wasn't for China, Korea would be one country right now and no one would be having to suffer in the northern part. |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Check your reading comprehension-
"Article goes on to point out that K-teachers gotta up their game if they hope to get decent results" |
I'm not sure what you mean by this post. I read the article and made a comment. The comment agreed with yours. That would infer my reading comprehension was successful, as was yours. Why have you advised me to check my reading comprehension? |
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