|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Unibrow
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
|
 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:32 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Given that the Korean peninsula was arbitrarily divided by America and the Soviet Union, this was probably one of the worst pro-imperialism examples you could have picked. |
If this was the 50's-80's you might be right, but it's 2012. I wasn't being pro-imperialist I was being anti-chuche. I was also pointing out the irony. Why don't you actually explain yourself though instead of making blanket statements? Maybe you actually have a point. |
What do you not understand? The Korean peninsula, in particular North Korea, has been negatively affected by American imperialism. South Korea was ruled by a brutal US backed military regime for decades. Due to the arbitrary drawing of a line, most of the farmland is in the south of the peninsula, making it hard to provide enough food for the North Korean people.
The US has more than 20,000 troops in South Korea, which is naturally worrying to North Korea. Not to mention the advanced weaponry provided to the South Korean army. As far as South Korea goes, The IMF is another vehicle of Anglo-American imperialism. It wasn't until they ignored the advice of the IMF that their economy really started to improve. To say that the higher standards of living in South Korea is thanks to the bountiful, generous nature of the US is pretty narrow minded and shortsighted. |
Like I said, your argument would have two feet to stand on if this wasn't 2012. Unfortunately, it is 2012 and as you noted, South Korea is ignoring the IMF and other bullying tactics used by the USA so I fail to see your point. Your argument was relative back in the day but now you are going to have a hard time convincing people that the US Military regime is "brutal" (in South Korea) or that the South Korean people are suffering under imperialism. I live here, and um...you seem a bit delusional to me. Economically, the USA is brutal, but so is every other country. That is called competition. It sounds like you are scapegoating capitalism in order to hold on to some utopian dreams you had a long time ago. It's much easier to do that than deal with the reality that those dreams may have lead to numerous oppressive dictatorial regimes isn't it? South Korea boomed because it figured out HOW to handle western influence, without bleeding hearts like Philippson holding their hand, they did it themselves. I think they can handle ESL guys running around drinking on a friday night at this point.
So North Korea is worse off because it rejected American Imperialism and South Korea is worse off because it accepted American Imperialism? Maybe you should stop seeing Korean people as incapable of determining their own fate and hold them responsible for the path their country takes. If they made diplomatic, military, or economic mistakes then it is unfortunate, but at the end of the day I hold the Korean people responsible for the fate of their own country. The irony of a foreigner going to Korea to warn Korea of other foreigners trying to impose their beliefs on Korea is totally lost on you and that doesn't surprise me. It's kind of a, "hey, don't listen to those foreigners, listen to me because I'm a good foreigner" approach.
As far as English being a sign of imperialism, even if it is true, if it isn't English it's going to be Chinese or Japanese or Russian or something else. As far as native speakers go, anyone that wants to get as close to fluency as possible is going to be hiring native speakers. Anyone advising someone learning a foreign language to avoid native speakers is a fool. Hate it or love it, it has a lot to do with the location of this peninsula. Time to come to terms with reality and quit blaming the boogeyman. |
You obviously failed at reading comprehension. Notice I said ruled, which is past tense. As a native speaker I'm quite happy that English is the most understood language worldwide, but the spread of it was clearly a product of imperialism. First the Anglo settler society methods of decimating the native populations and moving them to isolated reservations far from economically productive areas, leaving much of the country for the descendants of English speaking settlers.
When you come to now, English is still the dominant language of the internet. The only non English URL's are in Arabic. I don't know if you have noticed, but Korean URL's are in English. The spread of English has been to serve the English empire and later American corporations in their quest to control the worlds resources. Imperialism has had an extremely negative impact on Korea, whether it was Japanese, Russian, or American. There are people alive who witnessed the massive amount of artillery and bombs dropped by American forces on much of the peninsula. And there's still a line separating a people that was drawn by Americans and Soviets. The fact that you dispute these facts shows your historical ignorance. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Seoulman69 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Check your reading comprehension-
"Article goes on to point out that K-teachers gotta up their game if they hope to get decent results" |
I'm not sure what you mean by this post. I read the article and made a comment. The comment agreed with yours. That would infer my reading comprehension was successful, as was yours. Why have you advised me to check my reading comprehension? |
You launch into a whole spiel to contradict what the Finnish ambassador was saying about not needing any native speakers only to conclude by agreeing on one point?
Disingeneous or lacking in basic debate or reading comprehension skills.
Further, you said-
| Quote: |
| A lot of that article directly contradicts Phillipson's theory particularly "``Teachers (only) spoke English. If you had questions, you had to ask it in English. In the beginning (level), especially, you learn to speak without knowing much grammar,'' the ambassador said. This is still the same after several decades. |
"
neglecting the Finnish ambassador's statement-
| Quote: |
| ``All English teachers are Finnish, and they speak English the whole time, except when they have to explain grammar.'' |
indicating a conscious deletion of contradicting info, or again a basic lack of reading comp skills...mmm looking a bit under-qualified there pal... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Given that the Korean peninsula was arbitrarily divided by America and the Soviet Union, this was probably one of the worst pro-imperialism examples you could have picked. |
If this was the 50's-80's you might be right, but it's 2012. I wasn't being pro-imperialist I was being anti-chuche. I was also pointing out the irony. Why don't you actually explain yourself though instead of making blanket statements? Maybe you actually have a point. |
What do you not understand? The Korean peninsula, in particular North Korea, has been negatively affected by American imperialism. South Korea was ruled by a brutal US backed military regime for decades. Due to the arbitrary drawing of a line, most of the farmland is in the south of the peninsula, making it hard to provide enough food for the North Korean people.
The US has more than 20,000 troops in South Korea, which is naturally worrying to North Korea. Not to mention the advanced weaponry provided to the South Korean army. As far as South Korea goes, The IMF is another vehicle of Anglo-American imperialism. It wasn't until they ignored the advice of the IMF that their economy really started to improve. To say that the higher standards of living in South Korea is thanks to the bountiful, generous nature of the US is pretty narrow minded and shortsighted. |
Like I said, your argument would have two feet to stand on if this wasn't 2012. Unfortunately, it is 2012 and as you noted, South Korea is ignoring the IMF and other bullying tactics used by the USA so I fail to see your point. Your argument was relative back in the day but now you are going to have a hard time convincing people that the US Military regime is "brutal" (in South Korea) or that the South Korean people are suffering under imperialism. I live here, and um...you seem a bit delusional to me. Economically, the USA is brutal, but so is every other country. That is called competition. It sounds like you are scapegoating capitalism in order to hold on to some utopian dreams you had a long time ago. It's much easier to do that than deal with the reality that those dreams may have lead to numerous oppressive dictatorial regimes isn't it? South Korea boomed because it figured out HOW to handle western influence, without bleeding hearts like Philippson holding their hand, they did it themselves. I think they can handle ESL guys running around drinking on a friday night at this point.
So North Korea is worse off because it rejected American Imperialism and South Korea is worse off because it accepted American Imperialism? Maybe you should stop seeing Korean people as incapable of determining their own fate and hold them responsible for the path their country takes. If they made diplomatic, military, or economic mistakes then it is unfortunate, but at the end of the day I hold the Korean people responsible for the fate of their own country. The irony of a foreigner going to Korea to warn Korea of other foreigners trying to impose their beliefs on Korea is totally lost on you and that doesn't surprise me. It's kind of a, "hey, don't listen to those foreigners, listen to me because I'm a good foreigner" approach.
As far as English being a sign of imperialism, even if it is true, if it isn't English it's going to be Chinese or Japanese or Russian or something else. As far as native speakers go, anyone that wants to get as close to fluency as possible is going to be hiring native speakers. Anyone advising someone learning a foreign language to avoid native speakers is a fool. Hate it or love it, it has a lot to do with the location of this peninsula. Time to come to terms with reality and quit blaming the boogeyman. |
You obviously failed at reading comprehension. Notice I said ruled, which is past tense. As a native speaker I'm quite happy that English is the most understood language worldwide, but the spread of it was clearly a product of imperialism. First the Anglo settler society methods of decimating the native populations and moving them to isolated reservations far from economically productive areas, leaving much of the country for the descendants of English speaking settlers.
When you come to now, English is still the dominant language of the internet. The only non English URL's are in Arabic. I don't know if you have noticed, but Korean URL's are in English. The spread of English has been to serve the English empire and later American corporations in their quest to control the worlds resources. Imperialism has had an extremely negative impact on Korea, whether it was Japanese, Russian, or American. There are people alive who witnessed the massive amount of artillery and bombs dropped by American forces on much of the peninsula. And there's still a line separating a people that was drawn by Americans and Soviets. The fact that you dispute these facts shows your historical ignorance. |
No, your statement was clear and now you are backpedaling. the internet argument is funny too. The internet was pioneered in the USA, I guess in your mind the USA should have taken care to make sure a URL was available in every language in the world? I would say if other countries want to have URLs that aren't in English then let them make them. Noone is stopping them.
Please, show me where I disputed those facts. I'm not denying Korea suffered under imperialism. I don't even know what your point is anymore. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
You launch into a whole spiel to contradict what the Finnish ambassador was saying about not needing any native speakers only to conclude by agreeing on one point?
Disingeneous or lacking in basic debate or reading comprehension skills.
Further, you said-
Quote:
A lot of that article directly contradicts Phillipson's theory particularly "``Teachers (only) spoke English. If you had questions, you had to ask it in English. In the beginning (level), especially, you learn to speak without knowing much grammar,'' the ambassador said. This is still the same after several decades.
"
neglecting the Finnish ambassador's statement-
Quote:
``All English teachers are Finnish, and they speak English the whole time, except when they have to explain grammar.''
indicating a conscious deletion of contradicting info, or again a basic lack of reading comp skills...mmm looking a bit under-qualified there pal... |
Okay. I see the misunderstanding now. The part of Phillipson's theory I was referring to was his disapproval of the British Council only using English in the classroom. This directly contradicts the Finish system where English is used for everything except grammar. I wasn't referring to the native teacher aspect.
In response to your comment about the "except when they have to explain grammar". In the article it says ""As far as I understand, learning English in Korea focuses on grammar and rote learning, which is not the focus in our system,'' the ambassador said."
We can see from this that grammar is not a large part of the Finish English education system. That would further support the benefits of solely using English in the classroom.
The rude tone in your post suggests you are an argumentative person. While it's tempting to respond with insults of my own I don't think it would achieve anything. I've explained my point in a polite manner and hope that, if you feel the need to respond, you would do so in a similar manner. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Unibrow
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Given that the Korean peninsula was arbitrarily divided by America and the Soviet Union, this was probably one of the worst pro-imperialism examples you could have picked. |
If this was the 50's-80's you might be right, but it's 2012. I wasn't being pro-imperialist I was being anti-chuche. I was also pointing out the irony. Why don't you actually explain yourself though instead of making blanket statements? Maybe you actually have a point. |
What do you not understand? The Korean peninsula, in particular North Korea, has been negatively affected by American imperialism. South Korea was ruled by a brutal US backed military regime for decades. Due to the arbitrary drawing of a line, most of the farmland is in the south of the peninsula, making it hard to provide enough food for the North Korean people.
The US has more than 20,000 troops in South Korea, which is naturally worrying to North Korea. Not to mention the advanced weaponry provided to the South Korean army. As far as South Korea goes, The IMF is another vehicle of Anglo-American imperialism. It wasn't until they ignored the advice of the IMF that their economy really started to improve. To say that the higher standards of living in South Korea is thanks to the bountiful, generous nature of the US is pretty narrow minded and shortsighted. |
Like I said, your argument would have two feet to stand on if this wasn't 2012. Unfortunately, it is 2012 and as you noted, South Korea is ignoring the IMF and other bullying tactics used by the USA so I fail to see your point. Your argument was relative back in the day but now you are going to have a hard time convincing people that the US Military regime is "brutal" (in South Korea) or that the South Korean people are suffering under imperialism. I live here, and um...you seem a bit delusional to me. Economically, the USA is brutal, but so is every other country. That is called competition. It sounds like you are scapegoating capitalism in order to hold on to some utopian dreams you had a long time ago. It's much easier to do that than deal with the reality that those dreams may have lead to numerous oppressive dictatorial regimes isn't it? South Korea boomed because it figured out HOW to handle western influence, without bleeding hearts like Philippson holding their hand, they did it themselves. I think they can handle ESL guys running around drinking on a friday night at this point.
So North Korea is worse off because it rejected American Imperialism and South Korea is worse off because it accepted American Imperialism? Maybe you should stop seeing Korean people as incapable of determining their own fate and hold them responsible for the path their country takes. If they made diplomatic, military, or economic mistakes then it is unfortunate, but at the end of the day I hold the Korean people responsible for the fate of their own country. The irony of a foreigner going to Korea to warn Korea of other foreigners trying to impose their beliefs on Korea is totally lost on you and that doesn't surprise me. It's kind of a, "hey, don't listen to those foreigners, listen to me because I'm a good foreigner" approach.
As far as English being a sign of imperialism, even if it is true, if it isn't English it's going to be Chinese or Japanese or Russian or something else. As far as native speakers go, anyone that wants to get as close to fluency as possible is going to be hiring native speakers. Anyone advising someone learning a foreign language to avoid native speakers is a fool. Hate it or love it, it has a lot to do with the location of this peninsula. Time to come to terms with reality and quit blaming the boogeyman. |
You obviously failed at reading comprehension. Notice I said ruled, which is past tense. As a native speaker I'm quite happy that English is the most understood language worldwide, but the spread of it was clearly a product of imperialism. First the Anglo settler society methods of decimating the native populations and moving them to isolated reservations far from economically productive areas, leaving much of the country for the descendants of English speaking settlers.
When you come to now, English is still the dominant language of the internet. The only non English URL's are in Arabic. I don't know if you have noticed, but Korean URL's are in English. The spread of English has been to serve the English empire and later American corporations in their quest to control the worlds resources. Imperialism has had an extremely negative impact on Korea, whether it was Japanese, Russian, or American. There are people alive who witnessed the massive amount of artillery and bombs dropped by American forces on much of the peninsula. And there's still a line separating a people that was drawn by Americans and Soviets. The fact that you dispute these facts shows your historical ignorance. |
No, your statement was clear and now you are backpedaling. the internet argument is funny too. The internet was pioneered in the USA, I guess in your mind the USA should have taken care to make sure a URL was available in every language in the world? I would say if other countries want to have URLs that aren't in English then let them make them. Noone is stopping them.
Please, show me where I disputed those facts. I'm not denying Korea suffered under imperialism. I don't even know what your point is anymore. |
My point is quite clear actually. Imperialism is bad and makes people suffer. Your point seems to be that imperialism and grinding poverty are a good thing? I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, that it's good that millions of people live on less than $1 a day to benefit those of us in the "1st world?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Given that the Korean peninsula was arbitrarily divided by America and the Soviet Union, this was probably one of the worst pro-imperialism examples you could have picked. |
If this was the 50's-80's you might be right, but it's 2012. I wasn't being pro-imperialist I was being anti-chuche. I was also pointing out the irony. Why don't you actually explain yourself though instead of making blanket statements? Maybe you actually have a point. |
What do you not understand? The Korean peninsula, in particular North Korea, has been negatively affected by American imperialism. South Korea was ruled by a brutal US backed military regime for decades. Due to the arbitrary drawing of a line, most of the farmland is in the south of the peninsula, making it hard to provide enough food for the North Korean people.
The US has more than 20,000 troops in South Korea, which is naturally worrying to North Korea. Not to mention the advanced weaponry provided to the South Korean army. As far as South Korea goes, The IMF is another vehicle of Anglo-American imperialism. It wasn't until they ignored the advice of the IMF that their economy really started to improve. To say that the higher standards of living in South Korea is thanks to the bountiful, generous nature of the US is pretty narrow minded and shortsighted. |
Like I said, your argument would have two feet to stand on if this wasn't 2012. Unfortunately, it is 2012 and as you noted, South Korea is ignoring the IMF and other bullying tactics used by the USA so I fail to see your point. Your argument was relative back in the day but now you are going to have a hard time convincing people that the US Military regime is "brutal" (in South Korea) or that the South Korean people are suffering under imperialism. I live here, and um...you seem a bit delusional to me. Economically, the USA is brutal, but so is every other country. That is called competition. It sounds like you are scapegoating capitalism in order to hold on to some utopian dreams you had a long time ago. It's much easier to do that than deal with the reality that those dreams may have lead to numerous oppressive dictatorial regimes isn't it? South Korea boomed because it figured out HOW to handle western influence, without bleeding hearts like Philippson holding their hand, they did it themselves. I think they can handle ESL guys running around drinking on a friday night at this point.
So North Korea is worse off because it rejected American Imperialism and South Korea is worse off because it accepted American Imperialism? Maybe you should stop seeing Korean people as incapable of determining their own fate and hold them responsible for the path their country takes. If they made diplomatic, military, or economic mistakes then it is unfortunate, but at the end of the day I hold the Korean people responsible for the fate of their own country. The irony of a foreigner going to Korea to warn Korea of other foreigners trying to impose their beliefs on Korea is totally lost on you and that doesn't surprise me. It's kind of a, "hey, don't listen to those foreigners, listen to me because I'm a good foreigner" approach.
As far as English being a sign of imperialism, even if it is true, if it isn't English it's going to be Chinese or Japanese or Russian or something else. As far as native speakers go, anyone that wants to get as close to fluency as possible is going to be hiring native speakers. Anyone advising someone learning a foreign language to avoid native speakers is a fool. Hate it or love it, it has a lot to do with the location of this peninsula. Time to come to terms with reality and quit blaming the boogeyman. |
You obviously failed at reading comprehension. Notice I said ruled, which is past tense. As a native speaker I'm quite happy that English is the most understood language worldwide, but the spread of it was clearly a product of imperialism. First the Anglo settler society methods of decimating the native populations and moving them to isolated reservations far from economically productive areas, leaving much of the country for the descendants of English speaking settlers.
When you come to now, English is still the dominant language of the internet. The only non English URL's are in Arabic. I don't know if you have noticed, but Korean URL's are in English. The spread of English has been to serve the English empire and later American corporations in their quest to control the worlds resources. Imperialism has had an extremely negative impact on Korea, whether it was Japanese, Russian, or American. There are people alive who witnessed the massive amount of artillery and bombs dropped by American forces on much of the peninsula. And there's still a line separating a people that was drawn by Americans and Soviets. The fact that you dispute these facts shows your historical ignorance. |
No, your statement was clear and now you are backpedaling. the internet argument is funny too. The internet was pioneered in the USA, I guess in your mind the USA should have taken care to make sure a URL was available in every language in the world? I would say if other countries want to have URLs that aren't in English then let them make them. Noone is stopping them.
Please, show me where I disputed those facts. I'm not denying Korea suffered under imperialism. I don't even know what your point is anymore. |
My point is quite clear actually. Imperialism is bad and makes people suffer. Your point seems to be that imperialism and grinding poverty are a good thing? I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, that it's good that millions of people live on less than $1 a day to benefit those of us in the "1st world?" |
Actually, from what your first sentence says, your point was the that the spread of english has been a product of anglo-american imperialism. My point was that maybe in the past it was true, but that is no longer the case. So at this point in time the spread of english has been a result of many factors, anglo-american imperialism being just one of them. Semantics I guess. I think "has been" was a poor choice of words, and you are simplifying a very complex subject by simply blaming it on western imperialism.
I also said I wasn't being pro-imperialist, I was being anti-chuche. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I am disputing facts, denying imperialism hurt Korea, or that I am pro-imperialism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Seoulman69 wrote: |
| Quote: |
You launch into a whole spiel to contradict what the Finnish ambassador was saying about not needing any native speakers only to conclude by agreeing on one point?
Disingeneous or lacking in basic debate or reading comprehension skills.
Further, you said-
Quote:
A lot of that article directly contradicts Phillipson's theory particularly "``Teachers (only) spoke English. If you had questions, you had to ask it in English. In the beginning (level), especially, you learn to speak without knowing much grammar,'' the ambassador said. This is still the same after several decades.
"
neglecting the Finnish ambassador's statement-
Quote:
``All English teachers are Finnish, and they speak English the whole time, except when they have to explain grammar.''
indicating a conscious deletion of contradicting info, or again a basic lack of reading comp skills...mmm looking a bit under-qualified there pal... |
Okay. I see the misunderstanding now. The part of Phillipson's theory I was referring to was his disapproval of the British Council only using English in the classroom. This directly contradicts the Finish system where English is used for everything except grammar. I wasn't referring to the native teacher aspect.
In response to your comment about the "except when they have to explain grammar". In the article it says ""As far as I understand, learning English in Korea focuses on grammar and rote learning, which is not the focus in our system,'' the ambassador said."
We can see from this that grammar is not a large part of the Finish English education system. That would further support the benefits of solely using English in the classroom.
The rude tone in your post suggests you are an argumentative person. While it's tempting to respond with insults of my own I don't think it would achieve anything. I've explained my point in a polite manner and hope that, if you feel the need to respond, you would do so in a similar manner. |
| Quote: |
| "This directly contradicts the Finish system where English is used for everything except grammar. I wasn't referring to the native teacher aspect." |
No it doesn't. It affirms his idea that every country ought to teach English the way it sees fit to, rather then being being dictated to by TESOL, CELTA, or anyone else; my CELTA trainer would've had a cardiac arrest and flunked us all if we'd suggested the possibility of teaching grammar in L1.
| Quote: |
| "We can see from this that grammar is not a large part of the Finish English education system." |
It may not play a large part, but he didn't say it wasn't important. I don't think you'd get far in any language-related discipline if you were to say grammar wasn't necessary in some basic capacity. Any amount of time spent in the classroom here with beginners (i.e. word order malfunction)will tell u that.
| Quote: |
| "That would further support the benefits of solely using English in the classroom." |
No it doesn't. He said they use L1 to teach grammar. I'm sorry but you're gonna be docked another point for shoddy reading comprehension. And that's not being rude.
| Quote: |
| "While it's tempting to respond with insults of my own I don't think it would achieve anything. I've explained my point in a polite manner and hope that, if you feel the need to respond, you would do so in a similar manner." |
Ok, Mr. "Phillipson is just another liberal hippy-dippy bed-wetter" who "is a guilt riddled, liberal, half-wit"... (refer to p. 1 of this thread) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| No it doesn't. It affirms his idea that every country ought to teach English the way it sees fit to, rather then being being dictated to by TESOL, CELTA, or anyone else; my CELTA trainer would've had a cardiac arrest and flunked us all if we'd suggested the possibility of teaching grammar in L1. |
Yes, it does. Also who are these TESOL and CELTA people who are forcing Korea to learn English? Students attend the British Council of their own free will. It's not part of some dictatorship.
| Quote: |
| It may not play a large part, |
Exactly.
| Quote: |
| but he didn't say it wasn't important. |
"English in Korea focuses on grammar and rote learning, which is not the focus in our system,'' the ambassador said."
"In the beginning (level), especially, you learn to speak without knowing much grammar,'' the ambassador said. This is still the same after several decades."
Nobody, apart from you, said it wasn't important. They did however say it wasn't the focus of their system.
| Quote: |
| No it doesn't. He said they use L1 to teach grammar. I'm sorry but you're gonna be docked another point for shoddy reading comprehension. And that's not being rude. |
See the quotes above.
It's also strange that you feel the need to grade people on a message board. Do you walk around docking people imaginary points in real life or is it just online?
| Quote: |
| Ok, Mr. "Phillipson is just another liberal hippy-dippy bed-wetter" who "is a guilt riddled, liberal, half-wit"... (refer to p. 1 of this thread) |
And if he replies I will be far more understanding if he counters with insults. But I fail to see how this relates to you. I never insulted you.
This seems like the kind of conversation that could continue indefinitely therefore I will refrain from replying from here on. People can read the posts both of us have made and draw their own conclusions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
my CELTA trainer would've had a cardiac arrest and flunked us all if we'd suggested the possibility of teaching grammar in L1.
|
I don�t know if you agree with this guy Philipson or not but here�s a response anyway
The criteria for passing the CELTA are clearly laid out in the handbook and can be read before taking the course. The course is designed primarily for adults in multilingual classes so the whole concept of there being an 'L1' is redundant anyway. This is for numerous reasons.
1. People doing the CELTA often don�t know in what country they will be teaching in the future and will probably change countries at least once so they want transferable skills. People often do the CELTA on the cheap in Thailand for example and then come to Korea to teach.
2. The class the trainees are experimenting on might itself be multilingual so it would be completely inappropriate
3. The assessor might not know the language being used so would be unable to assess the lesson properly.
4. The other participants on the course might not know the language being used so would be unable to carry out peer observations satisfactorily.
For these reasons the classes the trainnees are asked to teach are always above Elementary level so should not need any grammar explanations in L1 anyway
Once the trainee has passed the course whether or nor they use L1 in the class room is of course up to them and the school they work at. The British Council�s terms and conditions of service, for example, have no rules about not using L1 and is quite happy for their teachers to use it in the class room as long as the students are happy with it. In Korea adult students and parents have been shown to be pretty strongly against it in surveys and written feedback, but in other countries this is not the case.
In terms of training local Korean teachers all courses and trainers are open to the use of L1 as long as the context dictates it and the teacher can justify reasons for using it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="edwardcatflap"]
| Quote: |
my CELTA trainer would've had a cardiac arrest and flunked us all if we'd suggested the possibility of teaching grammar in L1.
|
| Quote: |
I don�t know if you agree with this guy Philipson or not but here�s a response anyway
The criteria for passing the CELTA are clearly laid out in the handbook and can be read before taking the course. The course is designed primarily for adults in multilingual classes so the whole concept of there being an 'L1' is redundant anyway. This is for numerous reasons.
1. People doing the CELTA often don�t know in what country they will be teaching in the future and will probably change countries at least once so they want transferable skills. People often do the CELTA on the cheap in Thailand for example and then come to Korea to teach.
2. The class the trainees are experimenting on might itself be multilingual so it would be completely inappropriate
3. The assessor might not know the language being used so would be unable to assess the lesson properly.
4. The other participants on the course might not know the language being used so would be unable to carry out peer observations satisfactorily.
For these reasons the classes the trainnees are asked to teach are always above Elementary level so should not need any grammar explanations in L1 anyway
quote] |
You didn't have my trainer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| You didn't have my trainer |
True but all the points I made were general ones about the course not about specific trainers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You didn't have my trainer |
True but all the points I made were general ones about the course not about specific trainers |
Yeah I was a bit taken aback at the disparity between the "guidelines" and the reality of our situation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
This thread begs the question;
"If all the local teachers are so highly qualified, why on Earth are they importing untrained waygooks?"
It's obviously a smoke show.
My guess is the Korean ultra-nationalist movement is looking for
justification for its own existence. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crashlanding
Joined: 29 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As one of the few people on Earth who has taught English in Finland and South Korea after studying English in the United States and the U.K., I have to say that I'm fascinated to see a conversation about how English is taught in both countries.
I also must say that I'm quite puzzled as to why no one has asked to talk to me about this, despite my rather unique experience. Phillipson, on the other hand, has never taught in either of the two. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crashlanding wrote: |
As one of the few people on Earth who has taught English in Finland and South Korea after studying English in the United States and the U.K., I have to say that I'm fascinated to see a conversation about how English is taught in both countries.
I also must say that I'm quite puzzled as to why no one has asked to talk to me about this, despite my rather unique experience. Phillipson, on the other hand, has never taught in either of the two. |
Oh yeah, actually please let us know. I looked into Finland and it seems like maybe it's a matter of smaller population, smaller student to teacher ratio, and a geographic location that doesn't put it on the brink of war. I am interested in how good their english level actually is though, I don't like the word "competent" as a measure of how proficient someone is in a language.
And the girls, how do the girls in Finland compare.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
