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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Huckabee said this tragedy happened because "we have systematically removed God from our public schools." |
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AbbeFaria
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| Mike Huckabee said this tragedy happened because "we have systematically removed God from our public schools." |
Of course he did. But I would like to point out that we didn't start having shootings in schools until after we put god on the money and in the pledge. So suck on that, Mr. Huckabee. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Shooting at Conneticut School: 12 dead |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
I agree with some of this, but to say that this isn't about mental illness is weird, because looking at the profile of shooters mental illness is the one thing that reoccurs the most. |
I'm suggesting it's symptomatic of the real problem, not causal in itself. People immediately dismissing these shooters as "isolated lunatics," by contrast, are implicitly (or even explicitly at times) suggesting the opposite. |
Yes, to an extent, but it's not an either:or thing. Obviously some people will be psychopaths regardless of whatever culture they are a part of. Culture needs to be a part of this discussion, but so does mental illness and how best to deal with it. |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Shooting at Conneticut School: 12 dead |
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| Fox wrote: |
I'm inclined to agree with his point, and perhaps even expand upon it. American is not a cohesive society; individual citizens have substantial enmity for one another, and all three major social classes are at the throats of the other two. The police are a largely destructive force, whose two major functions are extracting revenue from citizens and acting as establishment thugs, with their emblems being the speed camera, the pepper-spray canister, and the zip-tie handcuff. |
1. How are the classes "at the throats of the other two"? The American populace views itself as middle class regardless of reality. There wasn't much of an outcry at Wall St. and the financial sector when the great recession started. Income inequality is as great now as it was in the 20s, yet only now are large numbers of people supporting raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans. In contrast, I'd say things are a lot more heated in other countries between classes (most notably France).
2. Like i said, relations with the police have improved remarkably, especially in LA and NYC. Homicide rates and violent crime are at historic lows in DC, NYC, and other cities. While demographics and certain policies have helped curb crime, I'd say another factor is the improved professionalism of police (in some cities at least).
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| Schools? I still remember receiving an infuriating lecture on "Why harassment is wrong" for extending my feet beneath the desk of the student in front of me, and this was a decade and a half ago. Things have gotten worse since then; in terms of knowledge-based education I do not think American schools are terrible (students who fail to learn are generally themselves at fault), but in terms of socialization? In terms of producing adults capable of giving and receiving respect? Complete breakdown, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem if not for the fact that the modern American parent has largely entrusted the raising of their children to the educational system. |
So what do you think schools should do in helping with socialization? I can't really argue against you here since I'm not clear on what you think they're doing wrong (minus the lecture, which seems like a teacher going overboad with PC crap).
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| Government? Americans largely hate their government, while continuing to incentivize the very behavior they hate. The work place? A totally dehumanizing environment for most Americans. Home life? Your mother probably divorced your father and tore apart your family in the process, assuming they were even married in the first place, and your own relationships are statistically likely to follow the same pattern. The media? As a market-driven force, it reinforces every other element of American dysfunction. |
Well the good news is divorce rates have gone down. Agree with you 100% on your government and media. Work place. Hmm.. Minus the lack of vacation time Americans get, I don't think the workplace is much different here than most other developed countries.
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| Virtue is lacking in almost every element of American society; everywhere the average American turns he is denied the beautiful and exposed to the ugly. How can we be surprised when people start breaking? This isn't about mental illness, counseling and medication are not the answer, and it's not something we can magic away with gun control either. This is about broader culture and lifestyle. |
I think you're being a little over the top here. Everywhere the average American turns to he is denied the beautiful? Not literally. There is still plenty of beauty here.  But seriously, there is still plenty of virtue out there. And it isn't cohesive? Given the wide number of cultures and nationalities that populate this country, I would say it has a pretty respectable about of cohesion.
Anyway, I do agree with you it is our culture and lifestyle that causes events like this, and that gun control and counseling would not stop them (or even make a noticeable diference). I just think that those elements that do create this madness aren't as pervasive as you say. Perhaps I'm just wanting to focus on my little bubble and would like to think it represents a substantial chunk of the USA. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| AbbeFaria wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| Mike Huckabee said this tragedy happened because "we have systematically removed God from our public schools." |
Of course he did. But I would like to point out that we didn't start having shootings in schools until after we put god on the money and in the pledge. So suck on that, Mr. Huckabee. |
People in America are becoming an obsessed "me" culture where many have little social interaction outside of the internet, smart phones, and gaming. People feel they are owed everything ... entitled ... and when those with mental illness snap, they do things like this.
Jeeesh, look at the disrespect for teachers and adults, for superiors at work, the movie culture which glamorizes killing and war..... if you think guns are the main problem here, you are blind.
Guns will be needed to overthrow the government in case of a revolution. The Constitution's words, not mine. They will also be needed by sane people who have built their lives rather than rely on the government to provide. When the gov't collapses and the entitled masses stop being given their freebees, they will come after people who have things they want. Guns will be needed then, too.
Last edited by Swampfox10mm on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AbbeFaria
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| AbbeFaria wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| Mike Huckabee said this tragedy happened because "we have systematically removed God from our public schools." |
Of course he did. But I would like to point out that we didn't start having shootings in schools until after we put god on the money and in the pledge. So suck on that, Mr. Huckabee. |
People in America are becoming an obsessed "me" culture where many have little social interaction outside of the internet, smart phones, and gaming. People feel they are owed everything ... entitled ... and when those with mental illness snap, they do things like this.
Jeeesh, look at the disrespect for teachers and adults, for superiors at work, the movie culture which glamorizes killing and war..... if you think guns are the main problem here, you are blind.
Guns will be needed to overthrow the government in case of a revolution. The Constitution's words, not mine. |
Aye, and those words were written when everyone had the same type of gun. How much use is your little handgun collection going to be against a drone strike or a tank? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| AbbeFaria wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| Mike Huckabee said this tragedy happened because "we have systematically removed God from our public schools." |
Of course he did. But I would like to point out that we didn't start having shootings in schools until after we put god on the money and in the pledge. So suck on that, Mr. Huckabee. |
People in America are becoming an obsessed "me" culture where many have little social interaction outside of the internet, smart phones, and gaming. People feel they are owed everything ... entitled ... and when those with mental illness snap, they do things like this.
Jeeesh, look at the disrespect for teachers and adults, for superiors at work, the movie culture which glamorizes killing and war..... if you think guns are the main problem here, you are blind.
Guns will be needed to overthrow the government in case of a revolution. The Constitution's words, not mine. |
Tunisia has the lowest gun ownership per capita in the world, yet managed to overthrow a dictator. Guns weren't needed.
And where exactly in the Constitution does it state anything about overthrowing the government?? (if you're referring to the 2nd amendment, you have an odd interpretation of "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."). |
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JustinC
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: We Are The World!
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Kuros"][quote="JustinC"]
| visitorq wrote: |
These children are innocents (redundant?), so when Obama kills them, he assumes responsibility, at least for their deaths. |
Okay, when I said show me the evidence I meant something concrete, not words off the internet. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| Mike Huckabee said this tragedy happened because "we have systematically removed God from our public schools." |
How does he explain that shooting a while back at a church-run school? I mean, I'm pretty confident that said church-run school hasn't "removed God." |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Dude, I'm with Buncheon Bum on this one, this amount of hatred you have can't be healthy. The idea that someone has to fake tears when they are responsible for talking about kids who were massacred is, and using something like this to push your ideology in this manner is a bit much. I mean you seem to deny the fact that he is human, and not just the sum of everything that you don't like about him. Sure it's hypocritical to cry for American kids while killing kids with drone strikes, but it's human. Call him out for what he's doing wrong and his hypocrisy, but to attack some tears after something like this as a diabolical plot, is taking it pretty far. |
Get over it. He obviously faked his pathetic little show of tears, and anyone who is an adult with any connection to reality will understand it. If you want to be ridiculously naive and pretend it was real, then go ahead 
As for my "level of hatred" you are just projecting. Hatred doesn't enter into it, but my rational approach here is altogether healthy. Calling out Obama for being a political opportunist is the right thing to do (after all, he is a serial liar). Denial is not going to improve anything. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="JustinC"][quote="Kuros"]
| JustinC wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
These children are innocents (redundant?), so when Obama kills them, he assumes responsibility, at least for their deaths. |
Okay, when I said show me the evidence I meant something concrete, not words off the internet. |
Oh please. You were shown the facts, it's not denied by anybody. Obama regularly orders drone attacks that kill children. Fact. Admit it and move on already. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
And where exactly in the Constitution does it state anything about overthrowing the government?? (if you're referring to the 2nd amendment, you have an odd interpretation of "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."). |
Sorry.. US Declaration of Independence:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_is_it_okay_to_overthrow_the_government_according_to_Jefferson |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="JustinC"]
| Kuros wrote: |
| JustinC wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
These children are innocents (redundant?), so when Obama kills them, he assumes responsibility, at least for their deaths. |
Okay, when I said show me the evidence I meant something concrete, not words off the internet. |
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I've never seen someone in an internet discussion engage in a Damn the Source fallacy that impugns the entire internet.
You asked for some evidence that Obama killed children.
The Suffering of an American Drone Operator
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With seven seconds left to go, there was no one to be seen on the ground. Bryant could still have diverted the missile at that point. Then it was down to three seconds. Bryant felt as if he had to count each individual pixel on the monitor. Suddenly a child walked around the corner, he says.
Second zero was the moment in which Bryant's digital world collided with the real one in a village between Baghlan and Mazar-e-Sharif.
Bryant saw a flash on the screen: the explosion. Parts of the building collapsed. The child had disappeared. Bryant had a sick feeling in his stomach.
"Did we just kill a kid?" he asked the man sitting next to him.
"Yeah, I guess that was a kid," the pilot replied.
"Was that a kid?" they wrote into a chat window on the monitor.
Then, someone they didn't know answered, someone sitting in a military command center somewhere in the world who had observed their attack. "No. That was a dog," the person wrote.
They reviewed the scene on video. A dog on two legs? |
Not good enough? How about this.
Robert Gibbs Says Anwar al-Awlaki's Son, Killed By Drone Strike, Needs 'Far More Responsible Father'
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A 16-year-old American boy killed in an Obama administration drone strike "should have [had] a far more responsible father," Obama campaign senior adviser Robert Gibbs says in a new video released by the group We Are Change.
Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was the son of Anwar al-Awlaki, an al Qaeda propagandist killed by a U.S. drone a year ago. But the child was killed in a separate strike some two weeks after his father was killed. Gibbs wasn't entirely familiar with the situation, and didn't know that al-Awlaki's son was killed two weeks after his father was killed, a person familiar with his thinking at the time he was interviewed told HuffPost.
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"I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father if they are truly concerned about the well being of their children. I don't think becoming an al Qaeda jihadist terrorist is the best way to go about doing your business," Gibbs, the former White House press secretary, told the interviewer from We Are Change, when asked to justify "an American citizen that is being targeted without due process, without trial -- and, he's underage, he's a minor." |
There you go. You said you wanted something outside Afghanistan or Iraq? You said you wanted more than something off the internet? Robert Gibbs acknowledges in a puzzling way that the Obama administration killed al-Awlaki's son, an American citizen, in Yemen. |
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JustinC
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: We Are The World!
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="visitorq"][quote="JustinC"]
| Kuros wrote: |
Oh please. You were shown the facts, it's not denied by anybody. Obama regularly orders drone attacks that kill children. Fact. Admit it and move on already. |
The sentence "There are estimates as high as 98% of drone strike casualties being civilians" irked me; who estimated that? |
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