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Shooting at Conneticut School: 28 dead
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reid made clear that he does not intend to do much of anything on the gun issue. Asked �what gun control measures would you support going forward?� Reid�s answer was a study in saying nothing:

REID: I watched the prayers, I watched everything that took place in Connecticut Sunday night. No one law can erase evil; that�s what the president said, and he�s right. But we need to accept the reality that we�re not doing enough to protect our citizens. I�m very happy that the president�s going to do everything he can administratively. We must engage on a thoughtful debate about how to change laws and culture that allow violence not continue to grow. Every idea should be on the table as we discuss how best to keep our children safe.

QUESTION: Can you speak specifically [about any] particular gun control measure?

REID: No. No, I�ve been very clear here. I think we have to have a full discussion.

Reid is not alone among Democrats. Although there has been much press coverage of some in the party, among them West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin and Virginia Sen. Mark Warner, who appear to have softened on gun legislation, there are others who most definitely have not. �I�m going to be one of the more cautious (ones) about doing anything on new gun laws,� Alaska Democratic Sen. Mark Begich told the Anchorage Daily News. �I want to be careful that we just don�t start throwing new laws on the books, driven by emotion, when we need to refocus on this whole issue.� Begich told the paper he preferred to concentrate on the mental illness involved in recent shootings.

In the days since the Newtown killings, many Democrats and their supporters in the press have expressed a desire to enact �meaningful� gun control as soon as possible. In two brief statements, President Obama and Harry Reid have poured some very cold water on those hopes.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
madoka wrote:
I was at the local Turner's Sporting goods store yesterday to buy another gun and I wasn't the only one. This unfortunate incident is causing others to stock up before a new ban takes place. The store was packed; so much so that I thought about taking a picture just so you'd see how crazy it was. I had to wait two hours in line before I could even talk to a salesperson. He told me that there was a line even before the store opened. Stores are just selling out of everything. Everything.

Now I see that Senator Diane Feinstein will introduce new legislation to ban assault weapons. Hypocritical WITCH! For a time, she was the sole possessor of a concealed weapons permit in all of San Francisco. Now she travels around in a limo with an armed escort, so the rest of us peasants don't need protection?



And don't forget the price of ammo has SKYROCKETED in the last five years.


That's because the price of copper has gone up.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Want to be safe? Don't buy a gun, move to a country that has proper gun control laws. Better yet, ask you government to pass stricter gun control laws.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Want to be safe? Don't buy a gun, move to a country that has proper gun control laws. Better yet, ask you government to pass stricter gun control laws.

Yeah, like Mexico.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
Want to be safe? Don't buy a gun, move to a country that has proper gun control laws. Better yet, ask you government to pass stricter gun control laws.

Yeah, like Mexico.


It's quite possible Mexico wouldn't have a problem if it weren't for illegal guns, many of which were legally purchased in the US and illegally smuggled into Mexico. Think about that for a moment.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
visitorq wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
Want to be safe? Don't buy a gun, move to a country that has proper gun control laws. Better yet, ask you government to pass stricter gun control laws.

Yeah, like Mexico.


It's quite possible Mexico wouldn't have a problem if it weren't for illegal guns, many of which were legally purchased in the US and illegally smuggled into Mexico. Think about that for a moment.

Are you kidding? You actually think the sale of guns to criminals can be controlled? How'd that principle work out with the banning of narcotics? Moreover, our own government (the same people now calling for gun bans) actively encouraged the smuggling guns to Mexican drug gangs so they could blame it on the 2nd Amendment. Do some research and get back to me:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/?tag=re1.channel

Also, if you don't like Mexico as an example, how about Brazil? Or Russia? Or a host of other countries with tighter gun controls than the US and higher crime figures?
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or Canada! The Uk! Japan!

Oh, are we just cherry picking to prove our points now?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
Or Canada! The Uk! Japan!

Oh, are we just cherry picking to prove our points now?

If you'd actually been paying attention to the conversation, you'd have realized that it wasn't me making the claim, but the other guy (who was saying that moving to countries with tighter gun control laws would make one safer). Or were you just trying to be petty to get a dig in?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and speaking of the UK:

Quote:
A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

Quote:
Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade:

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html

Quote:
Met police figures show 48% rise in gun crime in London:

There were 3,306 gun crimes recorded in London in 2009

Gun crime in London rose by nearly half and rape and homophobic crime rose by about a quarter over the past year, police figures have revealed.

There were 3,306 firearm offences in London in 2009, a rise of 48.7%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8473029.stm

So much for tighter gun controls making people safer...
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ghostrider



Joined: 27 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
I'm still not sure how this incident has incited so much anger against "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines". Neither of these (however you're defining them) were used in the attack, and the pistols that were used were legally registered to a law-abiding citizen. Nothing that's been proposed would have so much as slowed the killer in Connecticut.

As I understand, the killer did have an AR-15 (the civilian version of the M-16). I think the anger is directed against gun lobby extremism in general. As someone recently posted in the Right Wing Watch facebook group:

‎"One 'shoe bomber' & we all take off our shoes in airports. 62 mass shootings last 30 years, 7 this year but no gun law changes."

There is no lobby with a lot of political power that likes to chant, "Shoe bombs don't kill people. People kill people." There is no fanaticism about shoe bombs comparable to the fanaticism about guns that exists in America.
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ghostrider



Joined: 27 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
Oh, and speaking of the UK:

Quote:
A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

Quote:
Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade:

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html

Quote:
Met police figures show 48% rise in gun crime in London:

There were 3,306 gun crimes recorded in London in 2009

Gun crime in London rose by nearly half and rape and homophobic crime rose by about a quarter over the past year, police figures have revealed.

There were 3,306 firearm offences in London in 2009, a rise of 48.7%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8473029.stm

So much for tighter gun controls making people safer...

Since crime committed with air guns and replica guns is counted as gun crime in the UK your statistics don't actually mean much. At least now you're making an attempt to back up your claims with evidence which is a step in the right direction.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghostrider wrote:
comm wrote:
I'm still not sure how this incident has incited so much anger against "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines". Neither of these (however you're defining them) were used in the attack, and the pistols that were used were legally registered to a law-abiding citizen. Nothing that's been proposed would have so much as slowed the killer in Connecticut.

As I understand, the killer did have an AR-15 (the civilian version of the M-16).

Source?

Quote:
I think the anger is directed against gun lobby extremism in general. As someone recently posted in the Right Wing Watch facebook group:

‎"One 'shoe bomber' & we all take off our shoes in airports. 62 mass shootings last 30 years, 7 this year but no gun law changes."

So? We shouldn't be taking off our shoes (and getting groped by pervert TSA goons for hire) or have gun control measures imposed on us. Both are wrong. The real extremists are the people in government who are subverting our constitutional rights. And people like ghostrider who are spreading their propaganda for them.

Quote:
There is no lobby with a lot of political power that likes to chant, "Shoe bombs don't kill people. People kill people." There is no fanaticism about shoe bombs comparable to the fanaticism about guns that exists in America.

You are a gun-grabbing fanatic. You are fanatical about treating me and other innocent people like criminals and forcing us to give up our property. YOU are the fanatic, not us. We'd just like to be left alone, thank you very much.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghostrider wrote:
Since crime committed with air guns and replica guns is counted as gun crime in the UK your statistics don't actually mean much. At least now you're making an attempt to back up your claims with evidence which is a step in the right direction.

Pitiful. You accuse me of not providing sources, then you make ridiculous claims and attack the data I provided (how unlike a government-worshiping collectivist to question the validity of the BBC!) without providing any sources yourself? Too ironic to be believed...
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changes have to be made. That's got to happen on both sides of the equation. The problem I have is viloating personal liberties to attain it (more cctvs, etc.).

Anyway, there can not be sweeping changes. The government should ban the types of assault rifles that has been used in recent tragedies. Start a buy back program for those who already have one.

Also, I would be for limiting ammunation on present weapons. If you require a gun for home protection you don't need tens of rounds of ammunition.

I would be for 10 bullets at most for a gun. Shooting ranges can have bullets for practice and those accounted for and violators face serious penalties up to and including jail. Hunters are only allowed a certain amount of bullets.

I would be for limiting those who can have a gun. Not sure how clean your background has to be. I've never had a DUI and don't know if you have had one you can or can not obtain a gun but if you can, cut them off.

We have successfully ended certain types of guns. Machine guns for example. After Machine Gun Kellys, Dillingers, etc. those guns were successfully taken out of the populace. Its doable. Enforcement of present laws has to be done.

Home invaders with guns know the homeowner doesn't have a gun typically. They case the place and the people. They are loathe to invade a place where they know the homeowner is armed. Even if he knows the homeowner only has 10 bullets. Its just not worth it.

Basically over time limit the type of guns and ammos people can have. If or when American culture gets to the point where a constitutional amendment can be made to repeal the 2nd amendment then so be it, but until then, limit it in scope. Allow arms but severely so and as little as possible.

Instead of owning several guns for hunting, in time limit where you go to a rental place, such as you do for rental cars. You rent the rifle for hunting along with the bullets and return it. No need for several different type of hunting rifles. You can own one and if you feel the need for a different type, rent it during hunting season.

A serious study has to be made how criminals get the guns they do and plug the holes.

These things may or may not be doable I admit but we have to start somewhere.

btw, I am a gun owner. I would gladly give up my gun for a gun free society. I was hesitant to get one. I lived alone in a rented house near an area that had some break-ins, etc. I wanted to get a dog instead to alert me if a stranger was around but it wasn't in the lease and I worried about the caring and feeding of the dog because I traveled a lot on business when I was in the states. A german shepherd or some such breed was my first choice, a gun was my last. I didn't like owning it. I felt an awesome amount of personal responsibility because it could take a life. Even if I killed someone who broke in my home and my life was threatened and I was well within my rights to protect myself I'd feel bad afterwards I think.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
Anyway, there can not be sweeping changes. The government should ban the types of assault rifles that has been used in recent tragedies. Start a buy back program for those who already have one.

What assault rifles? You mean handguns??

Quote:
Also, I would be for limiting ammunation on present weapons. If you require a gun for home protection you don't need tens of rounds of ammunition.

Says who? How do you expect people to train with their weapons? Limit themselves to 2 bullets per session? Moreover, by making it illegal to own more, you're just criminalizing most of society while doing nothing in practical terms to solve the problem of criminals doing what they've always done.

Quote:
I would be for 10 bullets at most for a gun. Shooting ranges can have bullets for practice and those accounted for and violators face serious penalties up to and including jail. Hunters are only allowed a certain amount of bullets.

Wow. This is a recipe for disaster. You would criminalize most of society. There is no way you could effectively police this and shooting ranges would either become criminal hotspots or all be shut down (driving it all onto the black market), and overall it would have so many unintended consequences it would make your head spin. Maybe you should reconsider this.

Quote:
I would be for limiting those who can have a gun. Not sure how clean your background has to be. I've never had a DUI and don't know if you have had one you can or can not obtain a gun but if you can, cut them off.

They're already trying to do this in government. They'll just make anyone who's on a no-fly list (including young children, as you might recall from the news) part of a no-gun list. Again, it would be the end of the 2nd Amendment as we know it and would criminalize vast segments of the society. A total disaster waiting to happen.

Quote:
We have successfully ended certain types of guns. Machine guns for example. After Machine Gun Kellys, Dillingers, etc. those guns were successfully taken out of the populace. Its doable. Enforcement of present laws has to be done.

You think mafia and other criminals don't have access to these kinds of guns? Actually, machine guns aren't even illegal in some states, so I'm not sure what you're even talking about.

Quote:
Instead of owning several guns for hunting, in time limit where you go to a rental place, such as you do for rental cars. You rent the rifle for hunting along with the bullets and return it. No need for several different type of hunting rifles. You can own one and if you feel the need for a different type, rent it during hunting season.

Sounds pretty arbitrary. Again, criminalizing massive numbers of innocent people on a whim.

Quote:
A serious study has to be made how criminals get the guns they do and plug the holes.

Keep that dream alive.

Quote:
These things may or may not be doable I admit but we have to start somewhere.

I agree, but I would suggest you reconsider your current train of thought.

Quote:
btw, I am a gun owner.

As is your right, and I don't blame you. There's a reason you own a gun: it's called being rational. Only irrational people would want to live without guns in a society where criminals have guns.
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