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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Learning Korean was not easy but it certainly is not impossible. One thing is dead certain: if you do not have the right motivation, you will not learn much.
For me, the motivation was being able to speak to my in-laws in their language, understanding the culture better and because I saw it could open up professional doors down the road.
Motivation will vary by learner of course and it will pretty much dictate, more than anything else, how far you get with the language.
All this being said, it is not susprising that you have encountered so few westerners who speak high level Korean where you work kyosuro. In fact, most westerners have very little incentive to bother learning Korean because they are for the most part short term foreign workers (1-3 years) and for the most part can get by with a mixture of sign language, basic Korean words and a couple of Korean friends to help out. |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| T-J wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| How many lifers (living here since the 90s, married to a Korean, have a Korean kid or two, etc.) can speak Korean? Almost none at all. That should tell you something. |
Before all the regular lifers on here chime in with how fluent they are, I tend to agree with you from my experience. Having said that, virtually all the people I know who married Koreans have left the country so there's even less motivation than usual for them. The one guy I know who can speak Korean fluently can also speak a few other obscure languages pretty well. |
I know people that can and can't speak Korean well that are married with kids. The distinguishing factor in my experience is that those that can studied before they met their significant other. I haven't met anyone that started their relationship speaking English and then after marriage studied and practiced to a conversational level.
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When I met my wife I knew next to no Korean. Her English was half decent. We used English to communicate for that first year even if I did start to study. I became fluent over the years as I studied and practice. However, I know lots of westerners who studied Korean a bit before meeting their K-spouse and then stopped doing so as their spouse bascially translated everything when they were out and about. It does roll both ways. |
Well I guess I've "met" one then. (We really do need to hook up for a beer next time you're in Seoul so I can take that out of quotes)
I still think you're the exception. As you went on to say lots of the Westerners that you know gave up or at least curtailed their language study when their partner took away the need, or motivation.
That I think we agree is the necessity for learning Korean, or anything for that matter, motivation. I think people look at Westerners married to Koreans and assume that laziness, inability, or similar factors are to blame if they can't speak Korean. I've been guilty of this in the past as well. The truth of the matter is that their partner removes the motivation to learn if they are using English and providing crutch by translating.
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Motivation will vary by learner of course and it will pretty much dictate, more than anything else, how far you get with the language.
All this being said, it is not susprising that you have encountered so few westerners who speak high level Korean where you work kyosuro. In fact, most westerners have very little incentive to bother learning Korean because they are for the most part short term foreign workers (1-3 years) and for the most part can get by with a mixture of sign language, basic Korean words and a couple of Korean friends to help out. |
How about all the lifers with Korean wives and Korean kids? Do they not have motivation to learn? Why is it that nearly everyone who has been in Korea for 20+ years cannot speak Korean (beyond a beginner level)?
Answer: For adults (UNLESS they were exposed to another language as a child), learning Korean will probably (almost certainly) be extremely difficult, if not impossible.
http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test4materials/secondlangacquisition.htm
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Any small child will acquire native fluency in any language if exposed to it on a consistent basis in a social setting. A child will naturally acquire native fluency in more than one language under these circumstances.
In the overwhelming majority of individuals, however, this natural ability to acquire spoken language without deliberate effort begins to diminish sharply at about the age of puberty (12-14 years of age). Teenagers exposed to a new language after this age will acquire it with definite interference from whatever language or languages they had been exposed to before puberty. Language acquisition by adults is language learning--a deliberate, painstaking, intellectual process that rarely, if ever, results in the total native fluency acquired so naturally by any small child, regardless of intellectual ability or personal motivation. The deficiency is particularly evident at the phonetic level |
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110218092539.htm
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| Presented at the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) Annual Meeting in Washington, DC, Werker's latest findings provide further evidence that exposure to two native languages contributes to the development of perceptual sensitivity that extends beyond their mother tongues. |
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People who can speak two languages are more adept at learning a new foreign language than their monolingual counterparts, according to research conducted at Northwestern University. And their bilingual advantage persists even when the new language they study is completely different from the languages they already know.
"It's often assumed that individuals who've learned multiple languages simply have a natural aptitude for learning languages," said Viorica Marian, associate professor of communication sciences and disorders at Northwestern University. "While that is true in some cases, our research shows that the experience of becoming bilingual itself makes learning a new language easier." |
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090519172157.htm
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| "We're seeing that exposure to two languages early in life carries far-reaching benefits," said co-author Kaushanskaya. "Our research tells us that children who grow up with two languages wind up being better language learners later on." |
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People (and, for that matter, various species of animals) have what is termed "critical period". If you learn *any* new skill during its critical period, you can do it. If you miss the critical period, you will either never learn it, or learn it imperfectly. This is true of many skills, not just language. The critical period for language learning is birth to age 10-15 (depending on the individual). If you learn 2 or more languages during the critical period, it is easier to learn other languages later on, although it *still* takes a lot more work than if you learn them earlier.
Source(s):
I have learned at least 8 foreign languages to varying degrees of fluency at different times. And my husband is a professional theoretical linguist (and has learned at least a *dozen* languages--several of them perfectly). |
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Linguists don't completely understand the process yet, but before the age of 12, the brain is highly adaptable to language, whether one language or 4 languages. Children learn language at an astonishing rate without formal training, just by hearing it used among their playmates. After 12, the brain actually turns off the language learning ability in most people. That is also the beginning of the onset of puberty in many societies. So it seems that there is a cognitive relationship between the cessation of easy language learning and the onset of puberty--the onset of breeding behavior.
Source(s):
I have a PhD in Linguistics and teach at a major US university |
Havard professor Steven Pinker, twice a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize, is one of the most respected intellectuals in the world. He wrote:
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| language acquisition is guaranteed for children up to the age of six, is steadily compromised from then until shortly after puberty, and is rare thereafter. |
Others agree:
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| Our ability to effortlessly absorb a new language�any new language�begins to decline by age six, according to Robert DeKeyser, a professor of second-language acquisition at the University of Maryland. By the time we are 16, we have lost just about all hope of being able to speak a second language without a telltale accent, DeKeyser says. The reasons why children have a remarkable capacity to absorb new languages that adults generally lack are unclear. Some researchers studying the brain believe the answer may lie in a fundamental process by which grey matter develops. As we age, nerve fibers in our brain become sheathed in a protective coating made of fats and proteins. This coating, called myelin, boosts the speed of signals moving through the brain, but it also limits the potential for new connections. "It's as if you have a lot of tracks where people walked around the countryside and somebody came down and put asphalt on them," says Mike Long, who also teaches second-language acquisition at the University of Maryland. "Those roads are stronger and better, but they also limit possibility." |
I saw this in Time Magazine:
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| Nash summarizes much of current research on the development of the human brain. She states that there are a series of �windows for developing language. The window for acquiring syntax may close as early as five or six years of age . . . The ability to learn a second language is highest between birth and the age of six, then undergoes a steady and inexorable decline.� She concludes, �it is clear that foreign language should be taught in the elementary school, if not before� |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Language acquisition by adults is language learning--a deliberate, painstaking, intellectual process that rarely, if ever, results in the total native fluency acquired so naturally by any small child, regardless of intellectual ability or personal motivation. The deficiency is particularly evident at the phonetic level |
This is true but all it amounts to is that total native fluency is a rare achievement for adult learners. That does not mean adults cannot reach advanced levels. If you are near-native, for example, you are still short of total native fluency but you are pretty darned good - and there are levels way below that that are still impressive. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:23 am Post subject: |
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How about all the lifers with Korean wives and Korean kids? Do they not have motivation to learn? Why is it that nearly everyone who has been in Korea for 20+ years cannot speak Korean (beyond a beginner level)?
Answer: For adults (UNLESS they were exposed to another language as a child), learning Korean will probably (almost certainly) be extremely difficult, if not impossible. |
Now, you did not quite read or understand what I wrote in your hurry to respond.
Motivation is highly personnal. For example, my friend Jeff is also married to a Korean woman. I met him in Busan in 1998ish. They moved to Canada in 2002. His Korean is at low intermediate, it was at low intermediate back then too. When he met his wife, it basically drained his motivation as she would translate for him. His motivation to learn was thereby drained as he knew they would also move out of Korea in the near future back then.
Impossible is not a word I would use when discussing learning ANY language. My Mother speaks 4 languages. The first two she got as she grew up. The other two she learned as an adult (the last one she started studying in her early 50s and became conversant in).
The challenge of learning a language can deter many people, however it certainly is not impossible.
Now, you discussed full fluency and that is rare in any second or third language. Being conversant however is far less rare.... |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| T-J wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| How many lifers (living here since the 90s, married to a Korean, have a Korean kid or two, etc.) can speak Korean? Almost none at all. That should tell you something. |
Before all the regular lifers on here chime in with how fluent they are, I tend to agree with you from my experience. Having said that, virtually all the people I know who married Koreans have left the country so there's even less motivation than usual for them. The one guy I know who can speak Korean fluently can also speak a few other obscure languages pretty well. |
I know people that can and can't speak Korean well that are married with kids. The distinguishing factor in my experience is that those that can studied before they met their significant other. I haven't met anyone that started their relationship speaking English and then after marriage studied and practiced to a conversational level.
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When I met my wife I knew next to no Korean. Her English was half decent. We used English to communicate for that first year even if I did start to study. I became fluent over the years as I studied and practice. However, I know lots of westerners who studied Korean a bit before meeting their K-spouse and then stopped doing so as their spouse bascially translated everything when they were out and about. It does roll both ways. |
Well I guess I've "met" one then. (We really do need to hook up for a beer next time you're in Seoul so I can take that out of quotes)
I still think you're the exception. As you went on to say lots of the Westerners that you know gave up or at least curtailed their language study when their partner took away the need, or motivation.
That I think we agree is the necessity for learning Korean, or anything for that matter, motivation. I think people look at Westerners married to Koreans and assume that laziness, inability, or similar factors are to blame if they can't speak Korean. I've been guilty of this in the past as well. The truth of the matter is that their partner removes the motivation to learn if they are using English and providing crutch by translating.
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I agree.
As for the beer, I would be open to meeting up next time I am in Seoul. |
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dharma bum
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
They do mean ours but not necessarily as a put down towards you. That is where the confusion happens for a lot of us. The same thing happens with wayguk saram or wayguk in. In Korea it means something pretty neutral, however many of us take it personally or as some sort of clue that its an exclusion of some sort.
So 우리나라 can simply mean "Korea", it can also mean "our country" which in essence for a Korean it is. The starting point is different in English so of course confusion occurs.
You can of course choose to take it as some sort of insult or racist put down, that is entirely your call. Or can actually discuss this with Korean friends of yours and figure out where it comes from and how they mean it.
Let me provide a more personal example...
We have a son and a daughter. In English I will often refer to him as my son and seldom as our son. A person asks me is this your son, I will say yes he is my son.
Switch to Korean and it becomes 우리 아들 and almost never 내 아들. Why? because that is how Koreans view and refer to their family.
Another example, when my mother first visited Korea and I introduced her to my wifes parents, I refered to her as 우리 어머니. In English I would have said "this is my mother".
Nothing offensive is implied in this. |
I think most people know that 우리 나라, 우리 말, and 외국인 are not intended to be offensive, but these words can still be offensive in some cases. For me, for example, those words imply nativism and the exclusion of non-Koreans from true ownership/participation in the language, culture, and society, which I don't mind personally but could certainly be offensive to someone who considers Korea their permanent home. At the same time, I don't think people are consciously aware of the ideas these words imply, just that many are accustomed to thinking of 외국인 in a different category from Koreans and of Korea and Korean as something that belongs solely to the Korean ethnic group. That doesn't seem that bad on the surface, but if you unpack it, it becomes an assumption that 외국인 are not invested in the country/language to the extent necessary to claim any kind of ownership over it--and, in the case of the term 외국인, it's not hard to see that an over-reliance on that term can lead people to see 외국인 as foreigners first and people second. Either way, my point is that the assumptions that these words imply can be offensive in certain cases, especially when they take the form of ethnicism/ethno-nationalism and apply to people who have tried to make Korea their home (such as in the example above where there was some question as to whether someone of non-Korean ethnic descent should be able to use 우리 나라 and 우리 말 after becoming a Korean citizen), whether any offense is intended or not. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| That I think we agree is the necessity for learning Korean, or anything for that matter, motivation. |
Yep, it's all motivation. I was fascinated with Mandarin a few years ago and picked it up so quick the locals couldn't believe I'd only been in CH a few weeks. With Korean I picked up the basics equally fast, meh then lost interest.
There are so many things to be interested in you really need to pick and choose. If I was going to dig into language I'd go back to focusing on Mandarin. Korean isn't very relevant outside of this little peninsula. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| dharma bum wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
They do mean ours but not necessarily as a put down towards you. That is where the confusion happens for a lot of us. The same thing happens with wayguk saram or wayguk in. In Korea it means something pretty neutral, however many of us take it personally or as some sort of clue that its an exclusion of some sort.
So 우리나라 can simply mean "Korea", it can also mean "our country" which in essence for a Korean it is. The starting point is different in English so of course confusion occurs.
You can of course choose to take it as some sort of insult or racist put down, that is entirely your call. Or can actually discuss this with Korean friends of yours and figure out where it comes from and how they mean it.
Let me provide a more personal example...
We have a son and a daughter. In English I will often refer to him as my son and seldom as our son. A person asks me is this your son, I will say yes he is my son.
Switch to Korean and it becomes 우리 아들 and almost never 내 아들. Why? because that is how Koreans view and refer to their family.
Another example, when my mother first visited Korea and I introduced her to my wifes parents, I refered to her as 우리 어머니. In English I would have said "this is my mother".
Nothing offensive is implied in this. |
I think most people know that 우리 나라, 우리 말, and 외국인 are not intended to be offensive, but these words can still be offensive in some cases. For me, for example, those words imply nativism and the exclusion of non-Koreans from true ownership/participation in the language, culture, and society, which I don't mind personally but could certainly be offensive to someone who considers Korea their permanent home. At the same time, I don't think people are consciously aware of the ideas these words imply, just that many are accustomed to thinking of 외국인 in a different category from Koreans and of Korea and Korean as something that belongs solely to the Korean ethnic group. That doesn't seem that bad on the surface, but if you unpack it, it becomes an assumption that 외국인 are not invested in the country/language to the extent necessary to claim any kind of ownership over it--and, in the case of the term 외국인, it's not hard to see that an over-reliance on that term can lead people to see 외국인 as foreigners first and people second. Either way, my point is that the assumptions that these words imply can be offensive in certain cases, especially when they take the form of ethnicism/ethno-nationalism and apply to people who have tried to make Korea their home (such as in the example above where there was some question as to whether someone of non-Korean ethnic descent should be able to use 우리 나라 and 우리 말 after becoming a Korean citizen), whether any offense is intended or not. |
That is true, a person can use some of those expressions or words offensively. That is the nature of language. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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They do mean ours but not necessarily as a put down towards you. That is where the confusion happens for a lot of us. The same thing happens with wayguk saram or wayguk in. In Korea it means something pretty neutral, however many of us take it personally or as some sort of clue that its an exclusion of some sort.
So 우리나라 can simply mean "Korea", it can also mean "our country" which in essence for a Korean it is. The starting point is different in English so of course confusion occurs.
You can of course choose to take it as some sort of insult or racist put down, that is entirely your call. Or can actually discuss this with Korean friends of yours and figure out where it comes from and how they mean it.
Let me provide a more personal example...
We have a son and a daughter. In English I will often refer to him as my son and seldom as our son. A person asks me is this your son, I will say yes he is my son.
Switch to Korean and it becomes 우리 아들 and almost never 내 아들. Why? because that is how Koreans view and refer to their family.
Another example, when my mother first visited Korea and I introduced her to my wifes parents, I refered to her as 우리 어머니. In English I would have said "this is my mother".
Nothing offensive is implied in this. |
as the dharma bum has said, these terms can be offensive..It depends on who is using them, and why. 우리나라 is meant to be exclusive...just like when I talk about your father or mother. I may be an only child and still say 우리 어머니, but when you talk about my mother, you don't call her 우리어머니.. I don't go around getting offended, but I do like it when they use "this country" instead of mine. I think that if you have been in this country for over ten years and if you speak Korean at an advanced level (as in can pass level 5 of the Topik ) and if you are married, then you have some sort of claim here. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I honestly think it is a question of perception and how these expressions are said and used. 99 times out of a100 I found these expressions to be innoffensive with no intent to insult or exclude. The odd occasion had a Korean person say these things as a chest thumping gesture.
I also saw so many expats with limited Korean get insulted when a Korean refered to them as wayguk or used the ouri na ra expression. Again, perspective is so critical here.
Anyway, interesting discussion. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| I honestly think it is a question of perception and how these expressions are said and used. |
True. But don't underestimate the impact of "unintended effects" of language. In English, for example, using the term "non-White" is innocuous enough, but sets up a natural distinction between "normal" and "other".
우리 나라 can have a similar effect. This is even more pronounced when 외국인 is used to identify someone based solely on appearance without regard for their nationality or citizenship. |
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kyosuro
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: Women and men, what %? |
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Just what % of this forum is men? If I were a man, I would undoubtedly be much happier in Korea. There is so much respect for a *beep* and *beep* here, regardless of how attractive/unattractive the rest of your body may be.
How easy it must be, to marry a Korean woman who is just grateful that you don't treat her like s***, teach English, bring home a paycheck, live in an English bubble...that's how most of English teachers are. Or you get the hell out of Korea where you and your spouse are treated with respect, and you understand everything people are saying.
Western women come here only to pay off student loans and build up a savings reserve. Seriously, what western woman would appreciate a man who hawks/spits when they see someone they'd like to f***? Western men come here maybe to pay off student loans, but also to take advantage of the easy p****. This culture is only attractive to men who are (for various reasons) not attractive, or people who need money. Actually, I had an attractive male Korean sexual partner for three years, but I ended it after I saw that he only valued me for the great sex/potential green card.
I heard firsthand about a woman who interviewed and got a job at the university where I work last semester. The woman came to the interview in a sleeveless red minidress, and gushed hilariously (to a westerner who translated) about how exciting a place Korea is, how Korea is becoming globally known (Gangnam Style!!!) and how Korea is just such a happening place, about how much she is interested in learning Korean language and culture (she doesn't know anything). The alternate interpreter was called in because the head teachers were out of the country on holiday during the interviewing and hiring process, and the alternate was the only one who could interpret passable Korean to the high position ajosshis (deans and presidents). They needed only three new teachers; they hired the first three they interviewed. The others waiting for an interview were told some sort of lie, not interviewed, and told to go home.
I know those of you who benefit from Korean culture don't want to believe this, but how could I make such a story up? Seriously, I am not lying. This is Korea. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| I honestly think it is a question of perception and how these expressions are said and used. |
True. But don't underestimate the impact of "unintended effects" of language. In English, for example, using the term "non-White" is innocuous enough, but sets up a natural distinction between "normal" and "other".
우리 나라 can have a similar effect. This is even more pronounced when 외국인 is used to identify someone based solely on appearance without regard for their nationality or citizenship. |
Exactly what I meant! Hence the comment about perception and how language can be perceived. Add to this people who often are not very proficient with a foreign language and the scope of interpretation becomes ever larger. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| T-J wrote: |
| That I think we agree is the necessity for learning Korean, or anything for that matter, motivation. |
Yep, it's all motivation. I was fascinated with Mandarin a few years ago and picked it up so quick the locals couldn't believe I'd only been in CH a few weeks. With Korean I picked up the basics equally fast, meh then lost interest.
There are so many things to be interested in you really need to pick and choose. If I was going to dig into language I'd go back to focusing on Mandarin. Korean isn't very relevant outside of this little peninsula. |
I feel like the "basics" of Mandarin provide a much more immediate return than the "basics" of Korean, though, because of the absence of serious morphology in Mandarin. Even right from the start, when I checked my Mandarin/English dictionary, I could often make sense of the example sentences, while it took me quite a while to begin making serious sense out of most of the example sentences in my Korean/English dictionary. |
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