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Mr Lee's Monkey
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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 Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:51 pm Post subject: half of Korean workers are IC's according to ontheway |
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ontheway,
Show us the stats. Prove it. You keep saying this over and over in numerous threads. I have been told and have read that it isn't true - not even close to half, and dwindling very quickly according to an article I just read this morning in a Korean newspaper. Prove it, or stop pulling stuff out of your hiney to support your argument. Please. |
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Wildbore
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| fustiancorduroy wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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No book cooking going on here, Edward, as I've explained to you before. Why would you NOT want to reduce the amount of taxes you pay? Please explain that.
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I could try answering that question seriously and talk about fairness and responsibility and playing your part in society etc.. but I really think it'd be lost on you.
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| As for needing to grow up, I'll just say that I don't feel the need to comment about some aspect of you every time you make a post, even if it is not related to the topic at hand. Some people don't feel this way, apparently. |
I don't come on here repeatedly boasting about certain activities that people feel strongly about. Tax avoidance/evasion really winds me up and I will always comment on posters like you who seem to be promoting it as a cool thing to do. |
All right, Edward. That you for explaining your viewpoint. But I must argue that this thread is about working as an IC, so my post is completely relevant. I also mention my situation because it illustrates that working as an IC is not innately illegal or a stupid act. In certain situations, it can actually be more beneficial to the employer and the employee.
I can understand your point about social responsibility, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I pay as much tax as I have to legally. I don't view this as turning my back on society. I see it as a way to pay my share of the government purse while financially benefiting myself as much as possible. I see nothing wrong with that. Paying more tax than you absolutely have to seems foolish to me. You work for yourself, not the government. Pay to the government what you need to, but not any more.
As for paying medical bills when you are sick, well... I know one fellow who needed a major surgery. He worked as an IC without health insurance. His total bills for the surgery exceeded 25 million won. Fortunately, he had enough savings to cover the costs easily. I think that's fine. I'd rather pay money when I get sick than have to pay for costly health insurance that I may never use. Rather than throwing money away into insurance, it is better to take home more money each month and save and invest it. That way, you have complete control over your money and can use it when necessary. |
The national health insurance premium is a TAX, as it is mandatory. You CANNOT legally avoid it. By not enrolling as an IC or employee, as you are required to by law, you are tax evading. Also, compared to other western countries, the monthly health insurance tax here is cheap as dirt, so why you wouldn't pay the small tax for this coverage is just ridiculous.
Also, you friend was clueless if he paid the 25 million won bill in full. He could have just back-paid his health insurance taxes, got the insurance, and then had the insurance retro-actively pay for 70% of that bill, which is allowed under the scheme. |
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Wildbore
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:06 am Post subject: Re: half of Korean workers are IC's according to ontheway |
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| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
ontheway,
Show us the stats. Prove it. You keep saying this over and over in numerous threads. I have been told and have read that it isn't true - not even close to half, and dwindling very quickly according to an article I just read this morning in a Korean newspaper. Prove it, or stop pulling stuff out of your hiney to support your argument. Please. |
It is legal to be an IC on an E2 visa, and in many cases a good idea. The only difference is the withholding tax rate (you do a tax refund yourself and get money back) and the requirement to register with National Health by yourself. Why people are fussing about this is ridiculous.
Actually, the health insurance is cheap, if you are a foreigner the NHIC office just gives you the average rate which is currently about 86,000. You aren't getting screwed at all (since you now covered if you get hit by a bus) and since your Hagwon doesn't have to pay anything, they might give you extra cash.
It is actually QUITE BENEFICIAL for people who don't get a pension refund (Brits, NZs, etc.) to do it this way.
I wish people on here could use their brains. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:51 am Post subject: Re: half of Korean workers are IC's according to ontheway |
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| Wildbore wrote: |
| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
ontheway,
Show us the stats. Prove it. You keep saying this over and over in numerous threads. I have been told and have read that it isn't true - not even close to half, and dwindling very quickly according to an article I just read this morning in a Korean newspaper. Prove it, or stop pulling stuff out of your hiney to support your argument. Please. |
It is legal to be an IC on an E2 visa, and in many cases a good idea. The only difference is the withholding tax rate (you do a tax refund yourself and get money back) and the requirement to register with National Health by yourself. Why people are fussing about this is ridiculous.
Actually, the health insurance is cheap, if you are a foreigner the NHIC office just gives you the average rate which is currently about 86,000. You aren't getting screwed at all (since you now covered if you get hit by a bus) and since your Hagwon doesn't have to pay anything, they might give you extra cash.
It is actually QUITE BENEFICIAL for people who don't get a pension refund (Brits, NZs, etc.) to do it this way.
I wish people on here could use their brains. |
My understanding is you have to wait 3 months to be self cover with NHIC insurance. Great in a foreign country with no health insurance seems smart. Once you register you are then liable to make the full NPS contribution, 9% yourself a huge advantage for British and Kiwis who get 0% back.
Its legal to be on an IC on an E2. Where is your source for this information?
There are advatages of being an IC. What are they? Where is your source for these advantages?
Finally you wish people would use their brains, so do I. At university we're taught to use our brains and evaluate evidence. Without evidence there is no reason to waste our brains on an issue. |
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Wildbore
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:23 am Post subject: Re: half of Korean workers are IC's according to ontheway |
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| big_fella1 wrote: |
| Wildbore wrote: |
| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
ontheway,
Show us the stats. Prove it. You keep saying this over and over in numerous threads. I have been told and have read that it isn't true - not even close to half, and dwindling very quickly according to an article I just read this morning in a Korean newspaper. Prove it, or stop pulling stuff out of your hiney to support your argument. Please. |
It is legal to be an IC on an E2 visa, and in many cases a good idea. The only difference is the withholding tax rate (you do a tax refund yourself and get money back) and the requirement to register with National Health by yourself. Why people are fussing about this is ridiculous.
Actually, the health insurance is cheap, if you are a foreigner the NHIC office just gives you the average rate which is currently about 86,000. You aren't getting screwed at all (since you now covered if you get hit by a bus) and since your Hagwon doesn't have to pay anything, they might give you extra cash.
It is actually QUITE BENEFICIAL for people who don't get a pension refund (Brits, NZs, etc.) to do it this way.
I wish people on here could use their brains. |
My understanding is you have to wait 3 months to be self cover with NHIC insurance. Great in a foreign country with no health insurance seems smart. Once you register you are then liable to make the full NPS contribution, 9% yourself a huge advantage for British and Kiwis who get 0% back.
Its legal to be on an IC on an E2. Where is your source for this information?
There are advatages of being an IC. What are they? Where is your source for these advantages?
Finally you wish people would use their brains, so do I. At university we're taught to use our brains and evaluate evidence. Without evidence there is no reason to waste our brains on an issue. |
The information is the Korean tax code. It doesn't say ANYWHERE in there that an E2 visa holder must be an employee. Doesn't say that anywhere in immigration law either. Check a law dictionary about "employee" and "contractor" and an E2 visa can be either one.
Secondly, the fact is many of us, including myself, are doing it now. My Hagwon registered me as an IC. If the tax office wanted to stop it, they could just disallow IC registration by E2 visas. They haven't, obviously. That would simply screw up businesses and workers who are fine working in this manner.
The NPS self-enrollment isn't enforced. So Brits/Kiwis don't have to pay anything if they don't want to, NPS won't hunt them down. Also, your whole contribution is tax deductible, so even if you do get the lump-sum refund, you can get a bigger tax return from the NTS just by paying in.
As for the health insurance, yes there is a 3 month wait. That's another consideration one must make when determining whether to be an IC, and it's a risk you can manage if you obtain private insurance for that transition.
If you don't want to be registered as an IC, and you Hagwon wrongly does so, complain to the tax office. Many of us are perfectly content with our status, but that doesn't mean everyone will be. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| With the new stricter laws pertaining to Letters of Release, the Korean government is strengthening the position of hagwons to exploit their foreign wokers and cheat them out of pension and health insurance. It's going to become a much bigger problem now. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: half of Korean workers are IC's according to ontheway |
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| Wildbore wrote: |
| big_fella1 wrote: |
| Wildbore wrote: |
| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
ontheway,
Show us the stats. Prove it. You keep saying this over and over in numerous threads. I have been told and have read that it isn't true - not even close to half, and dwindling very quickly according to an article I just read this morning in a Korean newspaper. Prove it, or stop pulling stuff out of your hiney to support your argument. Please. |
It is legal to be an IC on an E2 visa, and in many cases a good idea. The only difference is the withholding tax rate (you do a tax refund yourself and get money back) and the requirement to register with National Health by yourself. Why people are fussing about this is ridiculous.
Actually, the health insurance is cheap, if you are a foreigner the NHIC office just gives you the average rate which is currently about 86,000. You aren't getting screwed at all (since you now covered if you get hit by a bus) and since your Hagwon doesn't have to pay anything, they might give you extra cash.
It is actually QUITE BENEFICIAL for people who don't get a pension refund (Brits, NZs, etc.) to do it this way.
I wish people on here could use their brains. |
My understanding is you have to wait 3 months to be self cover with NHIC insurance. Great in a foreign country with no health insurance seems smart. Once you register you are then liable to make the full NPS contribution, 9% yourself a huge advantage for British and Kiwis who get 0% back.
Its legal to be on an IC on an E2. Where is your source for this information?
There are advatages of being an IC. What are they? Where is your source for these advantages?
Finally you wish people would use their brains, so do I. At university we're taught to use our brains and evaluate evidence. Without evidence there is no reason to waste our brains on an issue. |
The information is the Korean tax code. It doesn't say ANYWHERE in there that an E2 visa holder must be an employee. Doesn't say that anywhere in immigration law either. Check a law dictionary about "employee" and "contractor" and an E2 visa can be either one.
Secondly, the fact is many of us, including myself, are doing it now. My Hagwon registered me as an IC. If the tax office wanted to stop it, they could just disallow IC registration by E2 visas. They haven't, obviously. That would simply screw up businesses and workers who are fine working in this manner.
The NPS self-enrollment isn't enforced. So Brits/Kiwis don't have to pay anything if they don't want to, NPS won't hunt them down. Also, your whole contribution is tax deductible, so even if you do get the lump-sum refund, you can get a bigger tax return from the NTS just by paying in.
As for the health insurance, yes there is a 3 month wait. That's another consideration one must make when determining whether to be an IC, and it's a risk you can manage if you obtain private insurance for that transition.
If you don't want to be registered as an IC, and you Hagwon wrongly does so, complain to the tax office. Many of us are perfectly content with our status, but that doesn't mean everyone will be. |
I refer you to article 9 of the National Pension Act of Korea, the only people exempt from indivividual contributions other than those covered by their workplace are:
| Quote: |
1. Non-income spouses of persons falling under one of the following items:
(a) Persons excluded from the coverage of the National Pension Scheme under the
proviso of Article 6;
(b) Workplace-based or Individually Insured Persons, or Voluntarily &
Continuously Insured Persons;
(c) Employees of a Special Post Office;
(d) Beneficiaries of the Old-age Pension or beneficiaries of the retirement pension,
etc.; and
2. Beneficiaries of the retirement pension, etc.;
3. Persons aged from eighteen to less than twenty-seven who are in school or
military service, etc. and have no income (excluding those who have ever paid
contributions);
4. Pensioners under the National Basic Living Security Act; and
5. Persons who have been missing for over one year. In this case, the recognition
criteria and the confirmation method regarding the missing person shall be
determined by the Presidential Decree. |
Article 6 refers to people covered by the private teachers or government employees pension fund.
Some country's citizens also have an exemption based on their countries treatment of Korean citizens, South Africans are the only English E2 people that fall in this category.
Just because you haven't been contributing and they haven't caught up with you doesn't make you exempt. Just like a lack of enforcement by the tax office doesn't mean being an IC is okay.
The disadvantages of being an IC and working in one place:
No tax deduction for rent, mortgage interest, or jonsei loan interest (actually this doesn't apply to foreigners, we can't get the deduction at all, but the Korean government doesn't discriminate.)
No deduction for credit card, check card or cash spending.
Liability for 100% of the health insurance premium of around 6%, I don't know how you're getting away with w90,000.
Liability for the whole 9% of the pension which some countries citizens can't get back.
Now if you are working at multiple companies on a real IC agreement there are some advantages, like being able to claim legitimate income related expenses like running a car, phone calls, printing, buying text books and the like. Trying to claim these as an IC at one workplace is likely to generate some interest from the tax office.
The best benefit as a real IC is not having a boss, being able to select your clients, and running your own business. No IC at a hagwon gets these benefits.
There are reasons that people would choose to be an IC, but honestly a lot of hagwons are using it to scam employees (Korean and expat) out of their legally entitled benefits. The only reason expat IC's usually get severance is hagwons know that is one benefit that the labour board will enforce, I feel sorry for the Korean employees in this position. |
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Mr Lee's Monkey
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:43 pm Post subject: half of Korean employees are IC's according to ontheway |
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The tax, legal, and ethical issues are all relevant in this thread. I am specifically asking ontheway to show proof that, as he alleges, half the Korean work force is comprised of IC's. He can't prove it, because it isn't a fact. He is using misinformation to bolster an argument for exploitation. Some here may choose to be an IC. The strongest defense of being one in this thread ends with the poster suggesting that maybe his school will throw him some extra cash. That doesn't sound like it's necessarily legal or desirable. Some among us are not mercenaries, and prefer the legit way of doing things.
If an individual wants to sign up for national health insurance, they must intend to be in country for at least three months. Can someone clarify what you are talking about in terms of a three month waiting period to be eligible for health care? |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: half of Korean employees are IC's according to ontheway |
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| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
| Can someone clarify what you are talking about in terms of a three month waiting period to be eligible for health care? |
My understanding was self insured E2's can't get coverage for their first 3 months as they're contractors not employees.
Source :http://www.nhic.or.kr/static/html/wbd/g/a/wbdga0602.html
| Quote: |
Date of Acquisition of Eligibility
(entered from Dec. 17, 2008) Date when 3 months have passed after entry into the country
(In case of studying or employment, eligibility is acquired on the
arrival date) |
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Skippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: half of Korean employees are IC's according to ontheway |
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| big_fella1 wrote: |
| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
| Can someone clarify what you are talking about in terms of a three month waiting period to be eligible for health care? |
My understanding was self insured E2's can't get coverage for their first 3 months as they're contractors not employees.
Source :http://www.nhic.or.kr/static/html/wbd/g/a/wbdga0602.html
| Quote: |
Date of Acquisition of Eligibility
(entered from Dec. 17, 2008) Date when 3 months have passed after entry into the country
(In case of studying or employment, eligibility is acquired on the
arrival date) |
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Thanks for this info. I always thought the waiting 3 months on Insurance was a delay tactic with schools. So a 3 month wait on health is likely means a school is registering someone as a IC. |
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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: half of Korean employees are IC's according to ontheway |
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| Skippy wrote: |
| big_fella1 wrote: |
| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
| Can someone clarify what you are talking about in terms of a three month waiting period to be eligible for health care? |
My understanding was self insured E2's can't get coverage for their first 3 months as they're contractors not employees.
Source :http://www.nhic.or.kr/static/html/wbd/g/a/wbdga0602.html
| Quote: |
Date of Acquisition of Eligibility
(entered from Dec. 17, 2008) Date when 3 months have passed after entry into the country
(In case of studying or employment, eligibility is acquired on the
arrival date) |
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Thanks for this info. I always thought the waiting 3 months on Insurance was a delay tactic with schools. So a 3 month wait on health is likely means a school is registering someone as a IC. |
No I don't think so Skippy, IC's get the self-employed insurance. they have to do this themselves.
Schools register teachers as employee insured, but there still is quite possibly a three month waiting period (processing paperwork etc) |
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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Looking at the NHIC website, the calculation seems to be a bit convoluted for self-employed health coverage.
| Quote: |
| "This Insaurance Contribution is calculated based on the householder�s income using a calculation method by referring to it's property, income, vehicle, age, and gender.' |
http://www.nhic.or.kr/static/html/wbd/g/a/wbdga0404.html
Has anyone gone through the process. Is it as difficult as it seems? |
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hogwonguy1979
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: the racoon den
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:22 am Post subject: |
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people say there is nothing in the tax or immig code saying E2s cant work as IC's
but here is the question:
What are the legal requirements for an employer to legally employ a foreigner? Remember the EMPLOYER makes the app to immigration to allow you in the country Do they in their application (or the law) say the employee they are bringing in (you) will be a regular employee or an IC? I assume there are standards (financials etc) that will cause immig not to allow employers to hire foreigners (I've heard of companies who have been busted for stuff not being allowed to hire foreigners)
thats what needs to be found out. |
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Lazio
Joined: 15 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Axiom wrote: |
Looking at the NHIC website, the calculation seems to be a bit convoluted for self-employed health coverage.
| Quote: |
| "This Insaurance Contribution is calculated based on the householder�s income using a calculation method by referring to it's property, income, vehicle, age, and gender.' |
http://www.nhic.or.kr/static/html/wbd/g/a/wbdga0404.html
Has anyone gone through the process. Is it as difficult as it seems? |
It might seem complicated but it�s non of your worry. They know everything about you and will calculate your monthly rate accordingly.
We used to pay under 30,000/month for my wife and I. We got older (falling into a different age bracket), moved to a jeonse lease etc. and now it jumped to around 60,000 for the 2 of us. We did not report any of these changes to them.
My wife is Korean but I don�t think it makes a difference. Just go to their nearest office and have it set up. Keep in mind that if you haven�t contributed for a while than you will be charged for those missed months. |
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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Lazio wrote: |
| Axiom wrote: |
Looking at the NHIC website, the calculation seems to be a bit convoluted for self-employed health coverage.
| Quote: |
| "This Insaurance Contribution is calculated based on the householder�s income using a calculation method by referring to it's property, income, vehicle, age, and gender.' |
http://www.nhic.or.kr/static/html/wbd/g/a/wbdga0404.html
Has anyone gone through the process. Is it as difficult as it seems? |
It might seem complicated but it�s non of your worry. They know everything about you and will calculate your monthly rate accordingly.
We used to pay under 30,000/month for my wife and I. We got older (falling into a different age bracket), moved to a jeonse lease etc. and now it jumped to around 60,000 for the 2 of us. We did not report any of these changes to them.
My wife is Korean but I don�t think it makes a difference. Just go to their nearest office and have it set up. Keep in mind that if you haven�t contributed for a while than you will be charged for those missed months. |
Thanks Lazio, nice to know. |
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