Korean Job Discussion Forums

DanielYessir · Joined: 18 Mar 2013 Location: Seoul

The nature of these ESL contracts marketed towards new grads who will come to Korea for a year or two max allows the industry to keep salaries relatively stagnant and also treat teachers poorly. Someone coming over here for a 'cultural' experience might get annoyed by the treatment they endure but generally they have a good time and leave feeling like that have done something cool and seen another part of the world. That's great but for those of us who want to stay here and who actually enjoy teaching/have experience/aren't just a face reciting the ABCs it's incredibly frustrating. There is also no push from parents (the customer) to demand quality of education. As long as their child is attending English lessons and there is a native speaker up there, it doesn't really matter. I also don't think parents really realize how much of difference well trained and experienced teachers can do for a child's language fluency. Plus Korean hagwon teachers don't have any training either so there is no comparison between schools that have a well-developed curriculum and highly trained teachers and those that don't. Parents just follow trends rather than ask/demand more, like "why after 10 years of elementary/middle school ESL lessons can my child only speak at a basic level?", "Why is Korean English proficiency so low compared to other Asian countries and the world and yet Koreans spend trillions of won a year on ESL lessons?", "Where is my money going?", "Why does public school teach my kid more?" etc. This issue probably isn't about to change because hagwons are a huge part of the economy but if the government placed greater value on public education and had a decent system is place for learning, parents might not see hagwons as such an important part of their child's education or they would demand more from extra schooling and force hagwons to take care of teachers and pay them what they deserve.

Unposter · Joined: 04 Jun 2006

I really get annoyed by people who talk about the "failure" of English education in Korea. Korea has come a long way and the improvements are everywhere and they most definitely speak as well or as better as anyone in Asia.

Have you ever been to Japan? There is no way you can tell me on average they speak English better than Koreans. It certainly hasn't been my experience.

China? No doubt there are some pretty good speakers. There are plenty in Korea, too. But, in a county of a billion and half, despite the fact that Chinese shares the same word order as English, the Chinese on average know English better. You just run into more elites that's all.

Same thing in Thailand. Yeah, almost everybody you run into speaks "some" English but that is because even though they are in the tourism industry, they are actually among the elite. Try to educate all Thais in English and you will probably get similar results as in Korea.

The industry has improved as well. Teachers have never been better trained, there has never been more adherence to curriculum, the curriculum is updated; Communicative approaches were totally unknown here ten to fifteen years ago; now it is common place.

When I first got here, you couldn't take your complaints to a labor board. Public school positions with government regulation were quite rare. You worked at a hakwon with a contract that was just a "starting" point and rarely adhered to.

There were no foreign beers in the grocery stores and you had travel miles to go to a lotteria, even in Seoul. Western food? You had a few places in Itaewon and the USO but that was it.

Now? They are everywhere.

It is a million and one times easier to live and work in Korea in anytime between now and fifteen years ago.

The improvements are actually amazing when you think about it. The Korean "quickly - quickly" attitude has been surprisingly effective.

Has Korea and the English-language industry full developed? No. It still has room for improvement. But, has it gotten better? Yes and I would say it is a lot!!!

In no way am I saying there aren't problems. There are. But, to answer the OPs question, things really are better - educationally, in terms of enforcing labor agreements and in general living in Korea. Honestly. And, I suspect they will continue to improve.

PatrickGHBusan · Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:11 am Post subject:

Unposter,

That was a great post but unlike a lot of people on here you have the luxury of the long term view and that gives some form of perspective. I think that since I first got to Korea in 1997 things have improved dramatically in terms of general work conditions, support, access to western goods, information, convenience and so on. However, to a newbie, this is largely meaningless as it was for you or me when we first got to Korea.

As for English education, it has had a definite impact and I for one can see it clearly when I visit Korea for a vacation or for my work. The level of English has improved in many areas. However, to a newbie that has his face stuck to the glass teaching, this may not be apparent. Again, this is normal.

Some mid to long timers also seem to be unwilling or unable to see things over the long term. It depends on their experiences.

On the work front, Danielyessir's post is a good example of someone who seems stuck. How or why that happens I do not know. I do know that I never felt stuck or out of options while in Korea. I was not stuck in a hakwon worked to the bone, then again I upgraded my quals and did some networking. I know numerous other longtimers who did the same and who have satisfying jobs where they are valued as experienced educators.

Mw182006 · Joined: 13 Feb 2013

Patrick and other long-timers: Thanks for sharing your insights. As a potential newbie, it helps keep things in perspective and balances out all the negativity and hyperbole that flies around here.

Julius · Joined: 27 Jul 2006

PatrickGHBusan · Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:52 am Post subject:

Weigookin74 · Joined: 26 Oct 2009

DanielYessir · Joined: 18 Mar 2013 Location: Seoul

I have to agree with Patrick that Unposter had a great post and it's true that my perspective is only over a short period of time 3.5 years- obviously nothing compared to long termers like Unposter. It's great to know that changes have been made over the long term. Wages SHOULD have increased, conditions SHOULD have improved, language levels SHOULD be much higher. I still feel though that jobs are generally marketed towards new grads and therefore hagwons can keep wages low. They also get away with providing little training because for most people this is a a temporary stop over to something else. Hopefully that will change though and parents will start to see training and experience as more valuable than a pretty, young American face. And it has as Unposter has watched happened, so that's a positive perspective and forward moving.

I also do agree with Julius in that wages are stagnant compared to inflation (can't ignore that). Starting salaries aren't the only problem. It's wage ceilings too. In the EPIK system the most a teacher can make is 2.7 and that's with lots of experience (in the system) and more quals. That's extremely low for a public school teacher with a master's degree and/or education degree and years of experience.

And as for myself, I'm here because I enjoy my life in Korea and I don't teach English because it's not for me. I think this discussion shows different sides of experiences and certainly people who are new(newish) to Korea can feel frustrated about low wages, and poor working environments. Unposter has stuck with it through changes and now can see that, (which is great) but others might move from one hagwon to another over a short-ish period of time and still experience a somewhat negative work environment forcing their time abroad to be just that, a short-time away before something else.

TheUrbanMyth · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired

TheUrbanMyth · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired

earthquakez · Joined: 10 Nov 2010

in your country's home money at the present time.

Nobody here except if they're married to a Korean has a long term future in Korea.

Any responsible person working abroad will be saving money in the expectation that all their efforts and the discomforts and sacrifices that come from living outside your home country will be compensated for by the money they save.

Well, it's time for reality to hit some on the head.

Current exchange rate (give or take some pence or a pound) for UK expats who are making what is becoming the average salary in Korea for an Engrish teacher - 2million, 300,000 won - is worth around 1,365 Brit pounds.

For those non Brits you double the sum to get an idea of what it is in your money. So Brits make about 2,700 dollars if you're an Ozzie, for example, per month in Korea.

Brits don't have a bad deal at all - when you compare what other native English speakers get when the money is exchanged. But the UK is more expensive than Korea in key areas.

Lets's switch to the Ozzies. When they've finished working that minimum 40 hr week (8 hrs per day, 5 days a week) although some native English teachers from whatever country put in more hours than 40 per week taking into account all the extras like scoring papers, employment activities out of hours etc, guess what they get?

A measley 1,900 dollars Aus per month. From 2 million, 300,000 won. That's peanuts in Aus, I've lived there and travel there at least once a year. It's an incredibly low amount of money, you're just about going to get that on the dole in Australia factoring in all the concessions and extra benefits as well as the money payments in total per month.

Now for the Americans. If they do the exchange they get around 2,020 bucks per month. Hardly gonna fund their basic lifestyle when they go back to the US.

The Canadians get around 2,165 dollars when they change 2 million 300,000 won per month into Canadian dollars.

Talk about getting jacked. Shocked

That 40 hour plus working week in Korea is getting you an exchange rate that in Australia and Canada is gonna fund the lifestyle that the bottom section of those societies live on per month.

Apart from the stupid high rent for garbage accommodation in Seoul, rents, mortgages, electricity, gas, public transportation, car maintenance, taxes, etc are much higher in Australia and Canada.

How are you even gonna think about working in Korea anymore when the money you get in Korea buys the lifestyle of low income people in your home countries?

I've travelled in a few cities in the US but I haven't lived there like I did in Canada as well. I'll let Americans fill in the blanks here.

When you look at how much 2.2 million won down to 2 million won becomes in the money exchange it becomes insane. In Aus you're scraping for the basics on that income and couldn't get near most rental houses, Canadians also would be scraping to live on that money per month.

Do the maths on the currency converters. It sucks. It's actually poverty line type money for Australians and Canadians, and you're working in Korea for that?!!

Wake up!

Unposter · Joined: 04 Jun 2006

I agree that salaries have been stagnant, or worse, declining somewhat. But, as another poster said, salaries were rising until the Great Recession, which suggests that other economic forces are at play here.

I also think the government's campaign to reduce educational costs have disproportionately hurt NESTs, which should not be a surprise, as one would assume most government policies would favor citizens, still it sucks!

But, for me, I think the bottom line is if you are the type of person that is in ESL for the money, and you have some talent/skill, this is not the career for you. There are plenty of better ways to make money and to make more money even with the state of our home economies.

If you are in ESL for other reasons, whatever they may be, and you are willing to exchange lower salaries, less stability and less long term opportunities, then this is the field for you.

But, I think the question about whether things have improved in terms of hakwons cheating and recruiters lying versus the economic realities are really two different things.

People talk about the "wild west" mentality in ESL in Korea and about 15 years ago, I think there was some truth to it. And, there really was something exhilarating about it. But, those days are gone for both good and bad.

The silver lining is that once the economy turns around, and I believe it eventually will, opportunities and salaries will once again increase - somewhat because the market won't be flooded. But, I don't think those days are here now - maybe in a year or two - who knows?