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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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 Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Forgive the copy paste from the Internet, but I'm on the android and hate typing on this small keyboard. Let's not forget:
It is vital to understand that collectivism is a totally different concept from egalitarianism, socialism or communism.
- collectivism : caring about what others in your group think of you, caring about the image of your group from the outside. It's essentially about image, respect, interpersonal relationships and emotional dependence on the group.
- egalitarianism : feeling/opinion that other people in society deserve the same fundamental rights (which nowadays has come to include social security and education, in addition to freedom). Egalitarian societies also prone lower income inequalities and equal salaries between men and women. Nordic countries, which are individualistic, are usually regarded as the most egalitarian. This doesn't prevent some strongly collectivist countries to be egalitarian (e.g. Japan). Some English-speaking countries are quite egalitarian (Ireland, Canada, Australia), while others are among the least egalitarian in the world (USA), but all are resolutely individualistic. There is absolutely no correlation between egalitarianism and individualism.
- socialism/communism : economic system in which the state owns a large part of the economy and plays a strong role as a regulator (using restrictive laws, taxes, subsidies, etc.). Historically socialism was never really implemented before the 20th century, but all developed countries now have at least some socialist policies. The only countries that still lack the socialist system of tax redistribution in public health care, education, pensions and other public services are all strongly collectivist countries (mostly in Africa). The most individualistic countries in Europe have some of the most generous socialist systems too (obviously Scandinavia, but also Britain which has one of the few completely free health care in the world). Therefore socialism is a really more an index of socio-economic development and is completely unrelated to the individualism level.
None of these three concepts are related with one another other than by chance and circumstances.
Last edited by War Eagle on Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:04 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
| I would also like to add, despite TJ's protests, that from my experience and perspective, there is considerably less oversight of the English-language education industry than the rules on the book suggest. And, while I do think this lack of oversight both helps and hinders FTs in Korea, usually when FTs complain about the English-language education industry, it is because of this lack of over-sight. |
http://travel.cnn.com/seoul/life/hagwons-arms-now-they-have-list-fees-online-and-issue-receipts-634977
I think the industry is becoming more regulated though...more laws are getting made and more black markets are disappearing. Ask anyone in the game: it is getting harder and harder to get part time work without the F visa. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Unposter wrote: |
| I would also like to add, despite TJ's protests, that from my experience and perspective, there is considerably less oversight of the English-language education industry than the rules on the book suggest. And, while I do think this lack of oversight both helps and hinders FTs in Korea, usually when FTs complain about the English-language education industry, it is because of this lack of over-sight. |
http://travel.cnn.com/seoul/life/hagwons-arms-now-they-have-list-fees-online-and-issue-receipts-634977
I think the industry is becoming more regulated though...more laws are getting made and more black markets are disappearing. Ask anyone in the game: it is getting harder and harder to get part time work without the F visa. |
Didn't they just open up part-time work to E2s a couple years ago? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
+1 for Patrick on this one.
All cultures have aspects of individualism and communalism. You will find both in Korea both historically and currently and you will find both in our home cultures as well.
Family units (whether nuclear or extended), churches, businesses, clubs and organizations, public (as in outside the family unit) schooling, fraternities and sororities, even going to night clubs and discos are all examples of communal behavior.
I think we should be careful of black/white dualism in any discussion of culture.
What we are really talking about is degrees of individualism.
I think we can find many aspects of heard behavior in Korea, as well as in our home countries. I also think we can find many examples of in-group loyalty in Korea but I certainly think we can find that in our home countries, such as preferences for people who share the same political party, religion, church, disco, musical artist as us.
There is nothing unique about in-group/out-group relations.
On the other hand, I do think there is a stronger tendency to criticize these relationships in most Western countries than it is in Korea. It has much to do with Western history and Western education as much of the ("subtle") differences of culture between our home countries and Korea.
It is easy to understand that we need to understand where a person has been (walk in his shoes) before we can understand him or her. The same can be true about (the admittedly abstract notion) of a group of people or culture.
When people (individually and collectively in culture) understand that we understand where they have come from, there is a tendency to be more accepting of any discussion of his/her/collective behavior/culture.
There is also more of a chance that visitors to that culture will be more accepting and more relaxed around different behaviors of their own.
I would also like to add that while language is a part of culture, language is not culture itself. Understanding a language may help someone understand a culture but learning a language is not the same as understanding a culture and can be mutually exclusive.
I personally think there are advantages to learning Korean culture, seperate from the advantages of learning the Korean language if one wants to live and work in Korea.
I would also like to add, despite TJ's protests, that from my experience and perspective, there is considerably less oversight of the English-language education industry than the rules on the book suggest. And, while I do think this lack of oversight both helps and hinders FTs in Korea, usually when FTs complain about the English-language education industry, it is because of this lack of over-sight.
Now, I find this interesting because my home country, the U.S., seems to be moving more and more in this direction. And, I find it amusing that in some ways the U.S. is copying Korea (and other developing countries which generally have less over-sight and regulation than developed countries). I guess this is really a two-way street. |
Of course in short posts one tends to generalize and things are often more nuanced. But just to take one of your examples--clubs. In a Korean club there will be a strict hierarchy that you won't find in the U.S. They are very different.
As to lack of oversight in U.S. education, maybe I'm misreading you, but there is an increasing amount of oversight in U.S. education as testing becomes more important. In fact, I was just reading a letter of resignation from a history teacher of 27 years because of a lack of freedom to teach as he sees fit. Curriculums, lesson plans, materials are all being taken out of the hands of teachers. |
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augustine
Joined: 08 Sep 2012
Location: México
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| In a Korean club... |
You'll be collectively C-blocked by at least four Korean dudes.  [/img] |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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I basically agree that there is MORE collectivist/heard behavior in Korea than in the West; I only have a problem with saying that Korea is exclusively collectivist and the West is exclusively individualistic.
In many ways, culture is the same. All cultures outlaw murder. It is how it is defined that becomes a difference. All cultures have families. It is how it is defined that can become different.
All cultures have communal and individualistic aspects, it is just what they are and how people go about them that CAN be different.
Clubs/discos are a communal activity in that groups of people go there for a common purpose and form a common identity by selecting a certain club/disco over another. People who go to the same club/disco often wear similar kinds of fashion and listen to similar kinds of music and may share other tastes and hold other similar values as well.
Sometimes, it is easier to see other people's behavior than our own. I don't doubt that one can see a lot of similarity between Koreans at a club/disco; the same is basically true everywhere - it is just what or how is similar CAN be different. Koreans may be more exact (the same) in their fashion similarities than in our home countries but within socially expected norms in our home countries we also dress similarly and we find ourselves attracted to people who share similar tastes and interests.
As for educational curriculum, I 100% degree, the U.S. is moving to less and less individual control. Public school curriculum is highly regulated. The general rationale is to create an equality of outcome - that anyone, anywhere can get the same quality of education. It is surprisingly collectivist.
On the other hand, in Korea, education is still more teacher centered. Korean teachers often have more latitude in what and how they teach than their American counterparts. Outside of public education, in private education such as hakwons and tutoring, curiculum is even more teacher centered. Parents and students look for "great" teachers that can give an advantage to their children or to them. It is surprisingly individualistic.
Imagine that.
When I mentioned de-regulation, I was mostly thinking in the field of business not education.
Regardless, we need to be careful about blanket statements about individualism and collectivism. They may fuel national and cultural pride but I suspect you will find varying degrees of both in all cultures and in all individual people with in those varying cultures.
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
I basically agree that there is MORE collectivist/heard behavior in Korea than in the West; I only have a problem with saying that Korea is exclusively collectivist and the West is exclusively individualistic.
In many ways, culture is the same. All cultures outlaw murder. It is how it is defined that becomes a difference. All cultures have families. It is how it is defined that can become different.
All cultures have communal and individualistic aspects, it is just what they are and how people go about them that CAN be different.
Clubs/discos are a communal activity in that groups of people go there for a common purpose and form a common identity by selecting a certain club/disco over another. People who go to the same club/disco often wear similar kinds of fashion and listen to similar kinds of music and may share other tastes and hold other similar values as well.
Sometimes, it is easier to see other people's behavior than our own. I don't doubt that one can see a lot of similarity between Koreans at a club/disco; the same is basically true everywhere - it is just what or how is similar CAN be different. Koreans may be more exact (the same) in their fashion similarities than in our home countries but within socially expected norms in our home countries we also dress similarly and we find ourselves attracted to people who share similar tastes and interests.
As for educational curriculum, I 100% degree, the U.S. is moving to less and less individual control. Public school curriculum is highly regulated. The general rationale is to create an equality of outcome - that anyone, anywhere can get the same quality of education. It is surprisingly collectivist.
On the other hand, in Korea, education is still more teacher centered. Korean teachers often have more latitude in what and how they teach than their American counterparts. Outside of public education, in private education such as hakwons and tutoring, curiculum is even more teacher centered. Parents and students look for "great" teachers that can give an advantage to their children or to them. It is surprisingly individualistic.
Imagine that.
When I mentioned de-regulation, I was mostly thinking in the field of business not education.
Regardless, we need to be careful about blanket statements about individualism and collectivism. They may fuel national and cultural pride but I suspect you will find varying degrees of both in all cultures and in all individual people with in those varying cultures.
On the |
I agree about blanket statements, but one can make generalizations that hold true.
First, by clubs I meant groups with a common purpose, not nightclubs.
I think you're offbase about education. In the U.S., it's not equality of outcome that is the goal but equal opportunity. The tests are aimed more at schools and teachers than at students to assure a quality of education.
I taught in the U.S. and collectivist is not a word that comes to mind. The faculties I belonged to voted on the textbooks they used. After that, how classes were taught was up to each teacher. That some are protesting so vociferously about changes which move in the direction of standardization is evidence of individualism, not collectivism. Plus there are the private schools, etc. which have their own agendas.
Korean public school teachers teach to a test, pure and simple. If they have additional class time they can add to their curriculum. As for hagwons, that's more business than education and they place a great emphasis on entertainment as well. Those star teachers who bring in the big bucks are usually teaching test prep classes, so they're limited by that. |
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