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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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 Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
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| Most of the time the message isn't that these are common problems, the message is that as foreigners our countries are guilty too so we should just sit down and shut up. It's ridiculous. |
Actually if you look at the threads here, most of the time the thread is written as:
Why do Koreans do X?
When X is a behaviour or issue just as or more prevalent in many other places.
Let's make it about something non-controversial.
If we said:
Why do Koreans eat with chopsticks?
do you think anyone would hesitate to bring up other Asian countries that also eat with chopsticks?
Of course not, it's hardly a unique behaviour, it's extremely prevalent elsewhere, and relevant to the discussion. Using chopsticks is not a unique behaviour to Koreans.
There are very few behaviours or situations that Koreans have the market cornered on. So the legitimate question is instead: Why do people do X?
When you pointlessly make discussions about common human behaviours about race, you're a racist. It's very simple. |
There are many issues plaguing the world. Corruption, poverty, racism, discrimination - just to name a few. If you move to Thailand, you can bring up poverty, then others will start pointing fingers at other countries (or especially the country of the person who brought up the issue). Just as common is the practice of bringing up a country that has the exact same problem, or a country where the same problem is even worse. The idea is to mitigate the extent of the problem locally - after all, it is much worse elsewhere.
Nations where the the issue at hand has been dealt with are seldom brought up, or if they are brought up, people start to point at other nations in defense. It would appear that as long as several other nations/people have similar, or worse problems, there is no need to admit that the problem is real and/or significant.
By the way.... I'm really not sure what chopsticks have to do with anything. Chopsticks are well known to be the key to winning gold in Olympic archery. Chopsticks and Kimchi^^
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/30/us-oly-arch-fingers-idUSBRE86T12A20120730 |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
[
There are many issues plaguing the world. Corruption, poverty, racism, discrimination - just to name a few. If you move to Thailand, you can bring up poverty, then others will start pointing fingers at other countries (or especially the country of the person who brought up the issue)... |
And why shouldn't they?
Let's take two countries Korea and the U.S.A and look at a common problem affecting them...say racism.
It would be hypocritical for a Korean citizen to come to the U.S and complain about racism there while not actively engaged in KOREA to combat racism there.
By the same token it is just as hypocritical for an American citizen to complain about racism in Korea while not actively engaged in America to combat racism there.
But what is a more significant objection and brings me back to the first line of my post...is that neither person is a citizen of the country they are complaining about...thus their scope for effecting real change is practically nil. It makes more sense for them to focus on their own country as at least they have a voice there as well as family and friends and can more easily find/organize like-minded people.
Plus let's face it...for all the venting on Dave's what has actually changed here?
Things (in terms of employment) have actually gotten worse overall. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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There are many issues plaguing the world. Corruption, poverty, racism, discrimination - just to name a few. If you move to Thailand, you can bring up poverty, then others will start pointing fingers at other countries (or especially the country of the person who brought up the issue). Just as common is the practice of bringing up a country that has the exact same problem, or a country where the same problem is even worse. The idea is to mitigate the extent of the problem locally - after all, it is much worse elsewhere.
Nations where the the issue at hand has been dealt with are seldom brought up, or if they are brought up, people start to point at other nations in defense. It would appear that as long as several other nations/people have similar, or worse problems, there is no need to admit that the problem is real and/or significant.
By the way.... I'm really not sure what chopsticks have to do with anything. Chopsticks are well known to be the key to winning gold in Olympic archery. Chopsticks and Kimchi^^
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/30/us-oly-arch-fingers-idUSBRE86T12A20120730 |
no, it's about correctly identifying a problem as being a world problem/human problem rather than being a problem specific to the country in question.
Is it a problem? Probably
is it unique to that country/race that it needs singling out as such? unlikely
It's crazy to talk about chopsticks right? I mean, lots of places use them, why would it be an issue here? Exactly. That's the point. Why single out Korea for using chopsticks when they're prevalent everywhere? It's an example to illustrate a point you can't quite grasp.
What people are saying when they say "Problem X is common in these other places" is that it's a world issue, nothing specific to Korea and trying to shape the discussion as if it was a Korean only problem is essentially racist.
While nations solve different problems at their own pace, Korea's place is not to solve the world's problems, but rarely are the discussions created for that reason. They're inevitably created because someone had a bad day and wants to vent with a racism to make themselves feel better. You want to see the real apologists? It's the same closet racists who always turn up in those threads, who always rush to defend their fellow racists with the same tired argument. Most people here don't shy away from genuine discussion, they take umbrage with people who can't seem to start a discussion without wrapping it in a racist blanket. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And why shouldn't they?
Let's take two countries Korea and the U.S.A and look at a common problem affecting them...say racism.
It would be hypocritical for a Korean citizen to come to the U.S and complain about racism there while not actively engaged in KOREA to combat racism there.
By the same token it is just as hypocritical for an American citizen to complain about racism in Korea while not actively engaged in America to combat racism there.
But what is a more significant objection and brings me back to the first line of my post...is that neither person is a citizen of the country they are complaining about...thus their scope for effecting real change is practically nil. It makes more sense for them to focus on their own country as at least they have a voice there as well as family and friends and can more easily find/organize like-minded people.
Plus let's face it...for all the venting on Dave's what has actually changed here?
Things (in terms of employment) have actually gotten worse overall. |
Yep... and I find that eslcafe debates have yet to improve the global economy - it's surreal, isn't it?^^
Aside from that, I suspect you would have made an excellent lawyer defending white male supremacy in the 1940's.
According to your argument, women should not have stood up for themselves when they were discriminated - after all, they did not actively engage in protesting similar gender discrimination when it comes to hiring nannies/nurses.
The same scenario applies to minorities in USA - how dare Mexicans protest racial discrimination when there is a similar problem in Mexico!
The citizenship bit is an interesting one, I admit. We are temporary workers (for the most part), and our rights are limited. In fact, if we work at public schools, our rights lessened still due to prohibition from partaking in any sort of political activity. Yet, we do have some rights - and we are most certainly allowed to file complaints to various commissions. What is also true is that we are unlikely to see any improvements if we only point at the countries that have same/worse problems than the country we are in, and ignore the countries that have been able to overcome similar issues. The opinions of foreigners living in Korea seem to be very much divided - with a fraction (perhaps even a large segment of foreigner population?) preferring to look at the nations which have same/bigger problems than Korea, rather than look up to nations which have been able to address similar concerns. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
no, it's about correctly identifying a problem as being a world problem/human problem rather than being a problem specific to the country in question.
Is it a problem? Probably
is it unique to that country/race that it needs singling out as such? unlikely
It's crazy to talk about chopsticks right? I mean, lots of places use them, why would it be an issue here? Exactly. That's the point. Why single out Korea for using chopsticks when they're prevalent everywhere? It's an example to illustrate a point you can't quite grasp.
What people are saying when they say "Problem X is common in these other places" is that it's a world issue, nothing specific to Korea and trying to shape the discussion as if it was a Korean only problem is essentially racist.
While nations solve different problems at their own pace, Korea's place is not to solve the world's problems, but rarely are the discussions created for that reason. They're inevitably created because someone had a bad day and wants to vent with a racism to make themselves feel better. You want to see the real apologists? It's the same closet racists who always turn up in those threads, who always rush to defend their fellow racists with the same tired argument. Most people here don't shy away from genuine discussion, they take umbrage with people who can't seem to start a discussion without wrapping it in a racist blanket. |
You will find that most topics here are based on the problems encountered in Korea because..... most people posting here are in Korea. If someone specifically says that the discussed problem is unique to Korea - that's wrong and then bringing up comparisons which would highlight the existence of similar problem elsewhere makes perfect sense, and I do not have an issue with that.
At the same time, when people bring up the problems they've encountered in Korea, it is common for a number of people here to presuppose that those posters are ignorant in their world views and are unaware that similar problems exist elsewhere. That, I suppose is where the comparisons often begin - and they most often derail the existing discussions. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Most of the time the message isn't that these are common problems, the message is that as foreigners our countries are guilty too so we should just sit down and shut up. It's ridiculous. |
Actually if you look at the threads here, most of the time the thread is written as:
Why do Koreans do X?
When X is a behaviour or issue just as or more prevalent in many other places.
Let's make it about something non-controversial.
If we said:
Why do Koreans eat with chopsticks?
do you think anyone would hesitate to bring up other Asian countries that also eat with chopsticks?
Of course not, it's hardly a unique behaviour, it's extremely prevalent elsewhere, and relevant to the discussion. Using chopsticks is not a unique behaviour to Koreans.
There are very few behaviours or situations that Koreans have the market cornered on. So the legitimate question is instead: Why do people do X?
When you pointlessly make discussions about common human behaviours about race, you're a racist. It's very simple. |
Q. Why do Koreans eat with Chopsticks?
A. A lot of Asian countries eat with chopsticks.
That isn't actually an answer, it's a comparison. That is the problem. Someone is looking for a reason and instead they get the response that it happens in other countries so there is no reason to ask why. A better option would be to give the history of how chopsticks were brought to Korea, etc, maybe you could even toss in the differences between how Korean people typically use chopsticks and people of other Asian countries use them.
On more complex topics like suicide or sexism it's just a cop out. Stating that suicide occurs in other countries too, so there is nothing to see here it just avoiding the issue. And if you you look at the causes in the USA and those in Korea you will find some similarities and some differences. There really is no need to take it as an insult if someone asks on a forum why so many Koreans are committing suicide (although I think it's in very bad taste if someone just brings it up bluntly around a Korean person). People come here, get frustrated, occasionally get targeted...they are looking for answers.
On immigration, the USA and Korea are totally different in my opinion. If you want to attack the USA for being xenophobic and racist that is fine but it doesn't change the situation in Korea at all. The root of the problems with immigrants is different in both countries, so if you treat them the same you are going to end up with an inadequate solution.
I'm not on Dave's fighting for some change in Korea, I actually don't care too much about what Korea does. I just think it's interesting to discuss. If it gets too bad I'll pack up my bags and leave, but it's a pretty great country so I don't see myself doing that anytime soon.
I understand some people make tasteless and racist comments on here, but we don't all need to be grouped together like that. People get angry and vent too, I think we all slip up from time to time. |
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