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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
[In the end though - I am talking about Korean media - why should I not address it as such?
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Because for starters there are two/more distinct groups of media in terms of their political leanings. It is certainly NOT one cohesive bloc and so to discuss it in those terms becomes an exercise in futility. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
Apologist excuse #492. It's okay to single them out and sound racist because we're all here. If we were all in Harlem it'd be okay to comment on some black people eating chicken? It's just where we are right? When you tie the behaviour to something that has nothing to do with the behaviour, like skin color, race, etc. you are a racist.
That's right though, most people are in Korea, and for a lot of people it is their first foray into the real world, but they are, supposedly, educated people. I guess that doesn't really account for much, but you should have some awareness of how people act and do things in the world around you.
I have not seen that many threads brought up there have actually targeted a uniquely Korean behaviour/situation or been brought up as a general "why do people do X?"
If people want to come here and say "Some guy pushed me crossing the street" no problem.
But you don't have to have been here long to see how a thread about that issue would actually be created and how it would evolve. |
So... what are the first 491 apologist excuses? I am curious^^
Are you implying that people should not discuss issues/problems they face here? Or that people that discuss such problems are inherently racist?
By the way, I am talking about real issues. When I talk about Korean media, I'm not saying that media in every other nation is unbiased/non-discriminative. In fact, I keep bringing up fox news, because I know that if I do not, people will start shoving that in my face (hence having to prove I am well aware of the bias issues in the American media). In the end though - I am talking about Korean media - why should I not address it as such?
BTW- I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a 'uniquely Korean behavior/situation'. |
No, I'm saying that people can discuss the issues/problems they have, but they can do so without being racist.
Let's have a look at a typical example:
Thread title: Why is Korean immigration so difficult?
I had to submit a document I already submitted a year or two ago, These rice farmers can't even photocopy something! boo hoo!!
Reply: Typical Adjosshi power trip!
Reply: damn kimmi and their incompetent bureaucracy
Reply: These Klowns are barely bipedal, you expect them to hold onto a form?
Reply: You know, compared to other countries, some of the procedures and policies that they have are quite relaxed and very easy/cheap to do.
Reply: OMG You're such an apologist!
and thread spiral to the point we're at now.
Expats have developed all kinds of little pejoratives that amount to little more than cloaked racism in some kind of attempt to appear superior to any aspect of Korean life, but for the most part, I've seen no evidence they actually are.
If people wanted to actually discuss the issue at hand and not simply vent their impotent rage, then they could do so without the loaded terms, without the racism, and discuss the actual issue at hand. Someone was rude to you, you left the house without your bigboy helmet and couldn't take it, and now you want to cry about it on Dave's. That's the motivation behind 99% of these threads.
Yes, there are a few things which are uniquely or at least more specifically Korean problems:
1-Using ID cards to sign up for websites. I don't know many countries that do this.
2 - The belief in fan death, though not really as prevalent or rampant as some people would insist.
As just a couple of examples. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| why more FTs in Korea over the past 10 years? Demand to be sure. That proves the point however that IF Foreigners truly were the victims of a campaign to demonize them, there is NO way the demand for FTs would have continued to grow and reach 20 000+. not a chance on Earth this happens. |
You think what is shown on the media does not have a negative impact on us? It can and does.
Why do you think so many jobs are hiring females over males? Think it has nothing to do with the negative portrayal of foreign males in the Korean media? What people see on TV and read in newspapers does have a definate impact.
How about the deep cuts in public school jobs? What was the cause(s) of that? How Westerners are percieved could very well be a factor.
Are Korean females less eager to be with Westerners compared to 10+ years ago? I heard yes. I also heard women in other Asian countries- Japan, the Philippines, China, Thailand, etc. are more eager to be with a Western male compared to K-princesses/ice princesses where we are here. |
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McQwaid
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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alongtheway wrote:
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| but you should have some awareness of how people act and do things in the world around you |
This is a good point. We are discussing people. Human behavior. Often, we get caught up in the ethnicities of things, only because it is quite often an emotional driving force that initiates the discussed human behaviors. This is when we start using labels for people. ie. Koreans/ Wayguks . Labels make our language so much more efficient, especially when we use a label that others understand and perhaps empathize with. ie. Koreans/Dave's EFL Teachers.
By this time, it's too late to claim objectivity with logic and reason in the discussion because you've already 'otherized' and labeled 'people'. Now, you will lose ground in your logic from any contrary reading opponent.
The key is, I think, is to share your experiences in a cafe like discussion that somehow uses a language that suggests to your readers that you are aware of human/people's natures, considering environmental backgrounds, and also considering that you yourself is also a part and responsible for the situation in discussion because you are human too and that you would most likely be behaving the same way as the peoples you are discussing due to the fact that you are human/people too.
In sum, if you were born a different race and in a different country than what you were, it is very likely you would be sharing the same perspectives of the peoples that are often complained about in the EFL countries on Dave's EFL cafe. Human reasoning about humans will always be flawed because nobody knows for sure what humans are let alone what it must be like to be someone else. Now add emotions to this!People are a hot mess as the ethnicities mix. Let's discuss it! Start from here and perhaps the language gets less racist. Forget about "you" or "them" and let's start discussing "us". |
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McQwaid
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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alongtheway wrote:
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| but you should have some awareness of how people act and do things in the world around you |
This is a good point. We are discussing people. Human behavior. Often, we get caught up in the ethnicities of things, only because it is quite often an emotional driving force that initiates the discussed human behaviors. This is when we start using labels for people. ie. Koreans/ Wayguks . Labels make our language so much more efficient, especially when we use a label that others understand and perhaps empathize with. ie. Koreans/Dave's EFL Teachers.
By this time, it's too late to claim objectivity with logic and reason in the discussion because you've already 'otherized' and labeled 'people'. Now, you will lose ground in your logic from any contrary reading opponent.
The key is, I think, is to share your experiences in a cafe like discussion that somehow uses a language that suggests to your readers that you are aware of human/people's natures, considering environmental backgrounds, and also considering that you yourself is also a part and responsible for the situation in discussion because you are human too and that you would most likely be behaving the same way as the peoples you are discussing due to the fact that you are human/people too.
In sum, if you were born a different race and in a different country than what you were, it is very likely you would be sharing the same perspectives of the peoples that are often complained about in the EFL countries on Dave's EFL cafe. Human reasoning about humans will always be flawed because nobody knows for sure what humans are let alone what it must be like to be someone else. Now add emotions to this!People are a hot mess as the ethnicities mix. Let's discuss it! Start from here and perhaps the language gets less racist. Forget about "you" or "them" and let's start discussing "us". |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| McQwaid wrote: |
alongtheway wrote:
| Quote: |
| but you should have some awareness of how people act and do things in the world around you |
This is a good point. We are discussing people. Human behavior. Often, we get caught up in the ethnicities of things, only because it is quite often an emotional driving force that initiates the discussed human behaviors. This is when we start using labels for people. ie. Koreans/ Wayguks . Labels make our language so much more efficient, especially when we use a label that others understand and perhaps empathize with. ie. Koreans/Dave's EFL Teachers.
By this time, it's too late to claim objectivity with logic and reason in the discussion because you've already 'otherized' and labeled 'people'. Now, you will lose ground in your logic from any contrary reading opponent.
The key is, I think, is to share your experiences in a cafe like discussion that somehow uses a language that suggests to your readers that you are aware of human/people's natures, considering environmental backgrounds, and also considering that you yourself is also a part and responsible for the situation in discussion because you are human too and that you would most likely be behaving the same way as the peoples you are discussing due to the fact that you are human/people too.
In sum, if you were born a different race and in a different country than what you were, it is very likely you would be sharing the same perspectives of the peoples that are often complained about in the EFL countries on Dave's EFL cafe. Human reasoning about humans will always be flawed because nobody knows for sure what humans are let alone what it must be like to be someone else. Now add emotions to this!People are a hot mess as the ethnicities mix. Let's discuss it! Start from here and perhaps the language gets less racist. Forget about "you" or "them" and let's start discussing "us". |
That's an excellent point, and I often find that the people who feel the need to use loaded terms like kimmi, klowns, adjoshi/adjumma (As pejoratives), or try to paint problems with very korean centric language have that "us against them" mentality and refuse to view others at a most basic level as humans as well.
That is often the point in making these comparisons and showing that these things occur elsewhere. To show that it really isn't "us against them"
it's really more about "poster vs themselves" as they can't really get over their own issues to enjoy their lives. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| why more FTs in Korea over the past 10 years? Demand to be sure. That proves the point however that IF Foreigners truly were the victims of a campaign to demonize them, there is NO way the demand for FTs would have continued to grow and reach 20 000+. not a chance on Earth this happens. |
You think what is shown on the media does not have a negative impact on us? It can and does.
Why do you think so many jobs are hiring females over males? Think it has nothing to do with the negative portrayal of foreign males in the Korean media? What people see on TV and read in newspapers does have a definate impact.
How about the deep cuts in public school jobs? What was the cause(s) of that? How Westerners are percieved could very well be a factor.
Are Korean females less eager to be with Westerners compared to 10+ years ago? I heard yes. I also heard women in other Asian countries- Japan, the Philippines, China, Thailand, etc. are more eager to be with a Western male compared to K-princesses/ice princesses where we are here. |
1- Trying to hire females of males: nothing to do with foreigners, all to do with school preferences, esp when it comes to young learners. This is hardly a unique phenomenon (more women being hired to teach kids)
2- Cuts in Ps positions: the Korean economy has not fired on all cylinders in recent years, hence the govt cuts its spending. PS hire FTs with govt money and such programs always are vulnerable to gvt cuts. Note that this PS program was always considered a temporary measure until Korean teachers could take over and teach English and before you cry foul on this, it is normal policy for any nation to favor its own citizens when it comes to jobs...
3- Korean women and western-foreign men? It is more common than before but this type of change takes TIME. I can honestly tell you that in this respect Korea has changed a ton when compared to when I arrived. It has changed in terms of how mixed couples are viewed but also how these couples can gain access to support in their community. Your qualification of Korean woman as ice-princesses speaks volumes however and I do wonder who here has issues with this topic...them or you? |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
That's an excellent point, and I often find that the people who feel the need to use loaded terms like kimmi, klowns, adjoshi/adjumma (As pejoratives), or try to paint problems with very korean centric language have that "us against them" mentality and refuse to view others at a most basic level as humans as well.
That is often the point in making these comparisons and showing that these things occur elsewhere. To show that it really isn't "us against them"
it's really more about "poster vs themselves" as they can't really get over their own issues to enjoy their lives. |
Derogatory terms serve only one function - they bring to the light the real world-views of some posters - I agree. I don't think you will see many people attempting to make a legitimate point use them in a discussion.
By the way, I am all for everyone seeing and treating everyone around them as human beings - we need need to move beyond gender/race/ethnicity/nationality if we are to evolve as human beings.
Yet, much of the discussion here is in fact a response to actions which are unfair/biased/discriminative.
Quote-------That is often the point in making these comparisons and showing that these things occur elsewhere. To show that it really isn't "us against them" it's really more about "poster vs themselves" as they can't really get over their own issues to enjoy their lives----------
I'm not sure what that means. Bias in the local media does not mean that we should take it out on Korean people in general. I don't think anyone here has suggested that.
Are you then arguing that the media bias is not the media's fault, but ours? That because a number of NETs here commit crimes, it is our fault? I have heard this argument many times before. Still, do you want to me to explain why it is wrong?
Last edited by maximmm on Sat May 25, 2013 3:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure what that means. |
...say nothing...say nothing..
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| Bias in the local media does not mean that we should take it out on Korean people in general. I don't think anyone here has suggested that. |
Have you been here? I realize your join date, but you've used this forum before right? It's not the first day you just decided to finally login and join a discussion?
There are people here who take someone bumping into them on the sidewalk as a declaration of war by all Koreans on them as an individual.
| Quote: |
| Yet, I suppose you are arguing that the media bias is not the media's fault, but ours? That because a number of NETs here commit crimes, it is our fault? I have heard this argument many times before. Still, do you want to me to explain why it is wrong? |
Nowhere in there did I remotely say that. I was neither commenting on that nor have I. I was correcting someone who was pulling the typical "You're all apologists" card |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm not sure what that means. |
...say nothing...say nothing..
| Quote: |
| Bias in the local media does not mean that we should take it out on Korean people in general. I don't think anyone here has suggested that. |
Have you been here? I realize your join date, but you've used this forum before right? It's not the first day you just decided to finally login and join a discussion?
There are people here who take someone bumping into them on the sidewalk as a declaration of war by all Koreans on them as an individual.
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I was talking about this thread, actually.
I have to say..... this is new. When discussing media bias in Korea, the new derailment is in the form of bringing up every racist thread made in the past by a number of people and then suggesting that we are the problem.
Again, this is new - Even PatrickBusan has yet to use it. Thanks for sharing. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm not sure what that means. |
...say nothing...say nothing..
| Quote: |
| Bias in the local media does not mean that we should take it out on Korean people in general. I don't think anyone here has suggested that. |
Have you been here? I realize your join date, but you've used this forum before right? It's not the first day you just decided to finally login and join a discussion?
There are people here who take someone bumping into them on the sidewalk as a declaration of war by all Koreans on them as an individual.
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I was talking about this thread, actually.
I have to say..... this is new. When discussing media bias in Korea, the new derailment is in the form of bringing up every racist thread made in the past by a number of people and then suggesting that we are the problem.
Again, this is new - Even PatrickBusan has yet to use it. Thanks for sharing. |
You seem to have missed where this kicked off, not really a shock. I'm guessing a lot passes you by. I was addressing this comment
| Quote: |
| Most of the time the message isn't that these are common problems, the message is that as foreigners our countries are guilty too so we should just sit down and shut up. It's ridiculous. |
By someone else who brought up the way things usually go. I guess it's only people who see things from your point of view that are allowed to bring the general state of affairs.. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
By someone else who brought up the way things usually go. I guess it's only people who see things from your point of view that are allowed to bring the general state of affairs.. |
I think it's clear that we are both disappointed in each other' conduct in this discussion^^ |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Your qualification of Korean woman as ice-princesses speaks volumes however and I do wonder who here has issues with this topic...them or you? |
I was just repeating what I read on the international forums. A poster there who had lived in several countries said the K-girls wouldn't give him the time of day, but women in other countries would. He used the word "ice princesses" to describe k-princesses. I was simply reporting what he said. If I were to guess the reason, I'd say it's because women all over the world are attracted to wealth (and also looks), just as men across the world are attracted to looks. Ten years ago, Westerners in Korea were rich compared to the locals; now we're are not. (That doesn't explain Japan, but it mostly explains the situation.) Anyways, people in ESL will tell you it's harder to get dates with Korean women compared to Chinese women, etc. in 2013. Do you think that's not true? Or is it something that is improper to discuss? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Your qualification of Korean woman as ice-princesses speaks volumes however and I do wonder who here has issues with this topic...them or you? |
I was just repeating what I read on the international forums. A poster there who had lived in several countries said the K-girls wouldn't give him the time of day, but women in other countries would. He used the word "ice princesses" to describe k-princesses. I was simply reporting what he said. If I were to guess the reason, I'd say it's because women all over the world are attracted to wealth (and also looks), just as men across the world are attracted to looks. Ten years ago, Westerners in Korea were rich compared to the locals; now we're are not. (That doesn't explain Japan, but it mostly explains the situation.) Anyways, people in ESL will tell you it's harder to get dates with Korean women compared to Chinese women, etc. in 2013. Do you think that's not true? Or is it something that is improper to discuss? |
If you think the average FT 10 years ago was rich compared to the average local, then perhaps you need to re-visit the information you base this on.
As for the dating issue, I have no idea what you are talking about but dating locally in Korea always posed a challenged, mostly due to the language barrier. As for Chinese women being "easier" to date, I could not tell you as I never tried to date one.
One thing is for sure, your avg FT being a short term transient worker in Korea may not look appealing to a Korean woman who would want to settle down. Also, contrary to popular belief on here, I do not think most Korean woman pine to get away from Korea. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| If you think the average FT 10 years ago was rich compared to the average local, then perhaps you need to re-visit the information you base this on. |
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/KORRGDPC
They were making (on average) significantly more than the locals. Now, this is no longer the case. |
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