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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
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What's really depressing is that 5% of deaths in Korea are from suicide, and that's just those that get reported (I was shocked not to see fan death on there...I kid, I kid). That's 5x higher than the US. That means 1/20 people you meet here, on average, will off themselves. Apply that to your classrooms. That's so sad.
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I looked at the number they posted. They said that 11,000 people died from suicide- 5%. Multiply 11,000 by 20 to get 100% (The number of total deaths), thats about 230,000 people a year dying total.
That doesn't add up for a country of 50 million with a stable~slightly declining population.
What I think it is, is 5% of deaths that are not natural causes. |
Well, they list 'road traffic accidents', 'other injuries' and 'falls' separately, so I don't think that 5% covers all non-natural causes. I know you take it upon yourself to defend against any perceived slight against this great nation, but Korea's suicide problem is well documented. Instead of falling prey to the traditional wisdom of covering it up or making excuses, it'd be more helpful to try to think of solutions. |
Right, but that still doesn't address the issue with the data. There is no way 11,000 people are 5% of total deaths in a country of 50 million. Do the math.
Suicide is a problem in Korea, but spouting off stats in error like "1/20 of your students will kill themselves" to prove a point about an obesity debate is not the way to address it.
The solutions are for the people of this country to figure out for themselves. Solutions from outside sources are appreciated and helpful, assuming good motives. However many of the so called "critiques" of Korea are not meant to help it, but to put it down in status relative to countries from which the person hails from. |
*sigh*
I wasn't bringing up the suicide rate to prove anything about obesity. I wasn't bringing it up to insult Korea.
I just clicked a link to the various causes of deaths in Korea. I noticed the high number of suicides (an already known fact about this country) and made a passing comment about how sad that is. I applied it to my students, making it more personal, because I work with children and care about them and it's sad to think so many of them, ON AVERAGE, will do this to themselves (or be directly affected by it). It makes me sad. Because I am an empathetic human being.
You think this stat says something negative about Korea and dispute the very real numbers and statistics because it 'feels wrong'. That's great, but many of us live in the real world. You've chosen to do what many in Korean culture have chosen to do which is to get mad at anyone who brings up this fact instead of being mad at the fact itself.
It's off topic, and I'm at fault for that for being the one that brought it up. I should have remembered that even saying "It's raining today" will bring a dozen angry responses from SteelRails and the Apologist brigade about how great Korea is and how ignorant I am for not being ever so grateful for that rain.
So, fine, suicide is not a problem in Korea. Everything is great. Hunky-dorey. The stats lie because it interferes with what we prefer to believe. End of story. Back on topic. Americans are fatties and Koreans have perfected the art of eating to the point of living forever, damn what the numbers and facts say! |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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I just clicked a link to the various causes of deaths in Korea. I noticed the high number of suicides (an already known fact about this country) and made a passing comment about how sad that is. I applied it to my students, making it more personal, because I work with children and care about them and it's sad to think so many of them, ON AVERAGE, will do this to themselves (or be directly affected by it). It makes me sad. Because I am an empathetic human being.
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Right, but why do you feel that Korea is in such dire straights compared to say, Canada? A simple look at average life expectancy reveals that Canada overall is only slightly ahead. However if one were to correct for GDP (PPP) as well as or Canada being developed for so long, the numbers don't seem to indicate some sort of crisis.
If Korea is "in crisis" for life expectancy, surely Canada is as well, as they are so similar. Do you feel this profound sense of sadness when staring at a school room full of Canadian children?
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| You think this stat says something negative about Korea and dispute the very real numbers and statistics because it 'feels wrong'. |
It doesn't "feel wrong", it's an illogical number. It was really obvious. A red flag. Saying that 11,000 deaths a year amount to 5% of total deaths does not make mathematical sense in a country of 50 million. That would mean 230,000 people die a year in Korea. 230,000 people is 1/200th of 50 million. If the average human life expectancy is about 80 years, I don't see how only 1/200th of your population dies and your nation has a stable population such as that which Korea has. If someone can double check the arithmatic, I'd gladly stand corrected. I suspect, that the 5% accounts for deaths by disease (suicide might be listed as 'disease'-mental disorder), or unnatural causes.
Is that a high number? Compared to the rest of the world, it surely must be.
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| You've chosen to do what many in Korean culture have chosen to do which is to get mad at anyone who brings up this fact instead of being mad at the fact itself. |
If the situation were reversed, and some proud Korean person was talking about a bunch of bad things about the US and brought up the US gun death rate, I wouldn't care much for them either. Why? They aren't bringing it up to help the US or because they care. It's part of some other agenda.
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| So, fine, suicide is not a problem in Korea. Everything is great. Hunky-dorey. The stats lie because it interferes with what we prefer to believe. |
Do you have an explanation for the arithmatic?
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| It's off topic, and I'm at fault for that for being the one that brought it up. I should have remembered that even saying "It's raining today" will bring a dozen angry responses from SteelRails and the Apologist brigade about how great Korea is and how ignorant I am for not being ever so grateful for that rain. |
Well claims should be thoroughly vetted and numbers examined. I had no issue with the stomach cancer or heart disease figures. That suicide number just seemed off. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Right, but why do you feel that Korea is in such dire straights compared to say, Canada? A simple look at average life expectancy reveals that Canada overall is only slightly ahead. However if one were to correct for GDP (PPP) as well as or Canada being developed for so long, the numbers don't seem to indicate some sort of crisis.
If Korea is "in crisis" for life expectancy, surely Canada is as well, as they are so similar. Do you feel this profound sense of sadness when staring at a school room full of Canadian children?
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Ah, here we are again. You changing the subject from what I was saying and putting words in my mouth in order to justify your overreactive response. I never said Korean life expectancy was in dire straights.
I made a comment about suicides, and that Korea is in dire straights with that.
Now you will go back 4 pages and say I brought up Korea's life expectancy initially. First, that's not what we're talking about here. You're denying the suicide rate in Korea and trying to guilt me for even bringing it up. This debate (if you can call it that. It's more of a pathetic denial in the face of concrete stats) is about suicide, so again try to talk about one thing at a time. Second, I didn't bring up Korea's life expectancy to prove that they are inferior in every way. I brought it up to illustrate just how meaningless these sorts of things can be when discussing health.
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It doesn't "feel wrong", it's an illogical number. It was really obvious. A red flag. Saying that 11,000 deaths a year amount to 5% of total deaths does not make mathematical sense in a country of 50 million. That would mean 230,000 people die a year in Korea. 230,000 people is 1/200th of 50 million. If the average human life expectancy is about 80 years, I don't see how only 1/200th of your population dies and your nation has a stable population such as that which Korea has. If someone can double check the arithmatic, I'd gladly stand corrected. I suspect, that the 5% accounts for deaths by disease (suicide might be listed as 'disease'-mental disorder), or unnatural causes.
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You're not making any sense. You're saying two different things, both equally flawed.
a) 11,000 is too low a number to account for 5% of total deaths. Well, in all the deaths listed on the WHO website, suicide accounts for 5% of them. So, either every cause of death is underrepresented there or they are, actually, the real numbers despite it not fitting into the reality you want to be true.
b) 11,000 is too low a number to account for 5% of total deaths. Therefore, it must include everything from airplane crashes to other mental health deaths (how else does mental health manifest into death besides suicide, I'm not sure, but I'm sure Dr. Rails can tell us). Again, you're just trying to confuse the issue. It's been pointed out a couple of times now that 'other' non-natural deaths are listed separately.
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If the situation were reversed, and some proud Korean person was talking about a bunch of bad things about the US and brought up the US gun death rate, I wouldn't care much for them either. Why? They aren't bringing it up to help the US or because they care. It's part of some other agenda.
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Actually, I have brought up gun deaths in the US in other places and it does concern me. Not everything is callously politically motivated. When I read about Newtown I didn't rub my hands together and think I 'got' the conservatives. I was a little bit destroyed on the inside and still to this day see a major factor in preventing these sorts of things happening in the future is gun reform. Same with these suicides in Korea. As a teacher here, it concerns me. I have my own ideas of what could help, but this is neither the time nor the place. I just brought it up because I had never really considered the real numbers before, and it struck me. I'm sorry that your pathological need to defend your motherland blinds you to the fact that even non-ethnic Koreans like myself can come here and create such a bond with Koreans that stats like this make us sad occasionally.
If I worked in Northern Canada and was confronted by the social ills that plague that area, I believe I'd be equally as shocked. I'm sorry that you believe that since I don't preface every statement I write here with an equal statement about my home country makes me some sort of hypocrite. I mean, why would people talk about Korea on a Korean message board, right....
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Do you have an explanation for the arithmatic?
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Yes. The link. The WHO is a very reputable organization with little to no bias in the matter. The fact that you refuse to believe it doesn't mean I have to provide more and more proof for you to refuse. You're the one who doubts the facts. You're the one who should provide (reliable) data to refute them.
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Well claims should be thoroughly vetted and numbers examined. I had no issue with the stomach cancer or heart disease figures. That suicide number just seemed off. |
Yeah, well, that's the thing about science. It doesn't care what you think. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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You're not making any sense. You're saying two different things, both equally flawed.
a) 11,000 is too low a number to account for 5% of total deaths. Well, in all the deaths listed on the WHO website, suicide accounts for 5% of them.
b) 11,000 is too low a number to account for 5% of total deaths. Therefore, it must include everything from airplane crashes to other mental health deaths (how else does mental health manifest into death besides suicide, I'm not sure, but I'm sure Dr. Rails can tell us). |
No, you aren't understanding it.
11,000 dead from suicide, accounting for 5% of overall deaths doesn't make sense. It's not the cause, it's the total number of deaths that doesn't make sense.
By that logic, that means that if you multiplied 11,000 by 20, then you you would get the total number of deaths. 5%=1/20th. That gives you a total of 230,000 deaths a year for Korea. That number is staggeringly low. That is 1/200th of the population. It gives a death rate of .0046. or 0.46% of the population per year. The global death rate per year is about .85%. In the US, it is .83%.
And yes, there are other causes of mental health death besides suicide, such as dementia, addiction, and depression. You don't have to be a Dr. to learn about these things.
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| Again, you're just trying to confuse the issue. It's been pointed out a couple of times now that 'other' non-natural deaths are listed separately. |
Actually it was you who confused the issue with this statement-
From your previous post
| Quote: |
| What's really depressing is that 5% of deaths in Korea are from suicide, and that's just those that get reported (I was shocked not to see fan death on there...I kid, I kid). That's 5x higher than the US. That means 1/20 people you meet here, on average, will off themselves. Apply that to your classrooms. That's so sad. |
As you yourself now admit, that 5% figure does not account for ALL deaths, therefore 5% of your students are not going to off themselves as you claim.
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| I mean, why would people talk about Korea on a Korean message board, right.. |
On a topic about non-Koreans.
But I think it's fine to bring Korea into this topic. Bashers play the game "But why are you mentioning back home???" (Despite directly comparing Korea to back home). This thread clearly had some comparisons involved, therefore even though it was about foreigners, I think Korea is relevant to the discussion.
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Yes. The link. The WHO is a very reputable organization with little to no bias in the matter. The fact that you refuse to believe it doesn't mean I have to provide more and more proof for you to refuse. You're the one who doubts the facts. You're the one who should provide (reliable) data to refute them.
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It's not the data, it's your presentation of it and the conclusions you drew.
I wouldn't have been so anal about it, but the fact that you did include the emotional, impassioned plea asserting that 1/20 students are going to off themselves gave cause to point out the flaw. That's a serious claim that merits fact-checking. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| That means 1/20 people you meet here, on average, will off themselves. Apply that to your classrooms. That's so sad. |
Maybe I overlooked a proper correction in this thread, but thats a ridiculous & stupid statement. Suicide is problematic here, but happens at a rate more like 28.4 per 100,000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| That means 1/20 people you meet here, on average, will off themselves. Apply that to your classrooms. That's so sad. |
Maybe I overlooked a proper correction in this thread, but thats a ridiculous & stupid statement. Suicide is problematic here, but happens at a rate more like 28.4 per 100,000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea |
It's about 1/3000 people in Korea off themselves (that number being slightly worse than that 28.4 number indicates). |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:01 am Post subject: |
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To the last two posters: Ok, I take that on board. You provided links that, admittedly, I haven't looked at yet. But if those are the real numbers then that's better. Again, I was just some guy who wrote a sentence about how sad a certain stat was, off hand, in a comment about something else. I wrote it as a teacher who deals with kids and was shocked by that stat. That's all. I honestly didn't mean it as an insult to Korea or Koreans. It was just a sad stat that made me think of the awesome kids in my classes here. As always, though, it was made into a political point by those who accuse others of using these things as political tools. It's obviously still too high, not because they're Korean but because I care about these kids. And if I was somewhere else where such a preventable death occurred I'd be shocked by those stats, too.
To Steelie: Using the WHO stats, I did say that that 5% was from total deaths. That was a point in my last post. That if 11,000 was too low to make it 5%, then all deaths were reported low in those stats because it was 5% of what they listed there. I have my problems with your 'logic' sometimes, but you're not one to completely put words in other people's mouths, so I'm not sure why you're insisting on it here. |
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itiswhatitis
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Most people tend to put on a fair bit of weight during their times as expats.
If you don't get fat, you are a bad expat...IMHO!!!! |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I wrote it as a teacher who deals with kids and was shocked by that stat. That's all. I honestly didn't mean it as an insult to Korea or Koreans. It was just a sad stat that made me think of the awesome kids in my classes here. As always, though, it was made into a political point by those who accuse others of using these things as political tools. |
Dude, no one turned it into a political statement. You made a claim and dressed it up in emotional language involving children (if that isn't a political ploy, I don't know what is).
The next post I made, in full was-
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I looked at the number they posted. They said that 11,000 people died from suicide- 5%. Multiply 11,000 by 20 to get 100% (The number of total deaths), thats about 230,000 people a year dying total.
That doesn't add up for a country of 50 million with a stable~slightly declining population.
What I think it is, is 5% of deaths that are not natural causes. |
At no point do I "defend" Korea, I merely point out that there seems to be a serious flaw in your claim based on statistical analysis.
Nonetheless, despite no mention of defending Korea and me solely focusing on the math, you claim in the next post-
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| I know you take it upon yourself to defend against any perceived slight against this great nation, but Korea's suicide problem is well documented. Instead of falling prey to the traditional wisdom of covering it up or making excuses, it'd be more helpful to try to think of solutions. |
A statement in which you accuse me of defending Korea, which I didn't. And one in which YOU politicize the issue by advocating for solutions. And falsely accuse me of covering it up or making excuses. ALL I DID WAS POINT OUT THE STATISTICAL ANOMALY IN YOUR CLAIM. A claim that had the loaded image of 1 in 20 kids in our classrooms offing themselves.
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| To Steelie: Using the WHO stats, I did say that that 5% was from total deaths. That was a point in my last post. |
You didn't say that until I had pointed out the flaw in your statistical analysis. And furthermore, you didn't retract your explosive claim that 1/20 kids will off themselves.
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| then all deaths were reported low in those stats because it was 5% of what they listed there. |
No, it doesn't mean that the reported deaths are low. It just means that the deaths they use in their reports, and the percent they represent is of some smaller group within the total number. I accept the claim of 11,000 deaths. I accept that its 5% of some larger grouping. I do not accept that 1/20 kids will end up offing themselves.
Dude, this stat issue isn't that hard to grasp and doesn't require advanced math. But you still aren't really understanding it. Dude, just man up and admit you made a bogus claim and misinterpreted the data. Don't cover it up and make excuses. 
Last edited by Steelrails on Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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salutbonjour
Joined: 22 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure it's 5% of premature deaths rather than of all deaths. Makes sense considering none of the other reason for deaths have anything to do with dying from being old. Suicide rate is of 31.7 per 100,000 according to wikipedia, which is pretty highest in the world except Greenland.
Quebec used to pretty much have the highest suicide rate in the world 15 years ago and it has gone down for no obvious reason.
http://www.med.uottawa.ca/sim/data/Suicide_e.htm
"Rates in Canadian Aboriginal populations are much higher, at 56.3 per 100,000 for males, and 11.8 per 100,000 for females (of all ages)"
"Suicide rates in Qu�bec are higher than those in other provinces; 1,136 Qu�becois killed themselves in 2006. This is twice as many as were killed on the roads. The Qu�bec rate ranks about number 5 in the world, actually an improvement over the past 10 years - prior to that Qu�bec had the highest rate in the world. The decline has occurred mainly among young people; sadly the suicide rate among baby boomers and elderly people is rising." |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
ALL I DID WAS POINT OUT THE STATISTICAL ANOMALY IN YOUR CLAIM.
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See, this is where the problem is. You keep insisting that this is MY stat. It's a stat from the WHO, a very reputable, responsible and unbiased global organization. You don't like the stat because, in your eyes (not mine), it makes Korea look bad and as anyone who even skims these boards knows, you cannot handle that. Thus, you keep trying to turn this into some random thing I made up, when, again, it is a number compiled by an international organization who's responsibility is to gather data like this. You're only defense is personal attacks on me and saying the stat is a lie because you don't like it.
So, fine, you win. The stat is a complete fabrication. The WHO is part of the greater conspiracy out there who's only mission is to discredit the great nation of Korea. You caught them! Add them to the list along with the US military, the global media, the banks, newspapers, Japan, China, the Olympic fencing judges, the Olympic short track speed skating judges, the Olympic badminton judges, FIFA, the UN, Apollo Ohno, the IMF, the World Bank, American Idol, the African Union, MTV, Glee, Lost, the Italian mafia, OPEC, Mother Nature, Father Time, Poland, Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Lady Gaga, every white person that has ever entered this nation's borders, Dave (of eslcafe fame), the state of Iowa, liberal bias, conservative bias, South Koreans living abroad, electric fans, American beef, map makers, the Gobi desert, White House interns, the city of Nairobi, Air Asia, book publishers, the Tropic of Cancer, death (in general), the laws of gravity and of course being awake and seeing things with your own two eyes.
Because that's much easier to believe than some stat that you don't like. And now please continue your 10 page thesis on how no one has ever killed themselves in Korea, and even if they had feeling bad for them is part of the international conspiracy to keep this country down. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| That means 1/20 people you meet here, on average, will off themselves. Apply that to your classrooms. That's so sad. |
Maybe I overlooked a proper correction in this thread, but thats a ridiculous & stupid statement. Suicide is problematic here, but happens at a rate more like 28.4 per 100,000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea |
Ok, like I said earlier maybe there are other stats out there. But, still, that's 2.84%, almost 3/100. Less than the 5/100 (5%) I gathered from the WHO stats, but still very high. Maybe my original statement was over the top, but it was just an honest reaction to a shocking stat. It's been blown way out of proportion by an apologist. Who, by the way had no problem with dozens of people here calling every single American FAT but jumped into action on a one sentence, off hand comment about Korea. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| See, this is where the problem is. You keep insisting that this is MY stat. It's a stat from the WHO, a very reputable, responsible and unbiased global organization. |
No, the stat is from a website which used WHO data and presented it in an alternative form.
My issue is with your presentation and interpretation of the data. A basic fact check and mathematical calculation should have revealed the erroneous nature of your claim that 1/20 kids will off themselves.
Do you still stand behind your claim that the WHO data supports the assertion that 1/20 kids will off themselves?
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| Maybe my original statement was over the top, but it was just an honest reaction to a shocking stat. |
That is why we fact check claims. That is why we engage in statistical analysis and vet our ideas before posting them.
Your claim was made without context. Anyone with a basic grasp of mathematics and data analysis would instantly see that 1/20 students claim and look at the data and be able to discern that there was something deeply wrong with that claim.
BOTTOM LINE- YOU ARE BLAMING ME FOR YOUR MISINTERPRETATION OF THE DATA.
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| It's been blown way out of proportion by an apologist. Who, by the way had no problem with dozens of people here calling every single American FAT but jumped into action on a one sentence, off hand comment about Korea. |
And also defended Canada relative to America, as well as supported the healthy dietary practices of Scandinavians and Mediterraneans.
Not to mention in the immediate post before I denounced your claim, I postulated that there would be a rise in diabetes in Korea.
Dude, BlackCat. Your claim of 1/20 has been utterly disproven. The math which I posted shows this. The statistics which others posted has shown this. Why are you fighting this? Why not just say those words which are hard to say, but are true- "I was wrong."
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| Add them to the list along with the US military, the global media, the banks, newspapers, Japan, China, the Olympic fencing judges, the Olympic short track speed skating judges, the Olympic badminton judges, FIFA, the UN, Apollo Ohno, the IMF, the World Bank, American Idol, the African Union, MTV, Glee, Lost, the Italian mafia, OPEC, Mother Nature, Father Time, Poland, Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Lady Gaga, every white person that has ever entered this nation's borders, Dave (of eslcafe fame), the state of Iowa, liberal bias, conservative bias, South Koreans living abroad, electric fans, American beef, map makers, the Gobi desert, White House interns, the city of Nairobi, Air Asia, book publishers, the Tropic of Cancer, death (in general), the laws of gravity and of course being awake and seeing things with your own two eyes. |
Irrelevant to the claim that 1/20 kids will end up offing themselves.
You made a bogus claim. It was exposed. Man up. Don't worry so much about 'face'. Stop acting like a Korean over this. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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So, no more talk about getting fat?
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Poor countries have skinny people who are on the verge of starvation. Rich countries have plenty of foods and lots of variety, hence the weight gain problem. Less smoking to suppress appetite and other things. Most people aren't going to be movie stars so they don't keep their weight down. Lots of younger Koreans getting chubby nowadays too. Only difference I notice are chubby Korean girls are happy, while many chubby Western girls seem pissed at the world. |
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