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Brooks
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Really this is something out of Japan`s playbook.
I work in Tokyo and am in my last year before I am replaced by someone younger and cheaper.
Put teachers on temporary contracts and get rid of them.
And Koreans think they are different than the Japanese, but they are more similar than they realize. |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Many Koreans are now on temporary contracts? Is this like in Europe, where the government has strict rules on firing and permanent status causing many young French to not be able to get a job? I often hear from Koreans about many young people here not being able to get a job. Too many rules governing hiring and firing while requiring lots of benefit payouts? I'd say take some away from those samsung dudes and share the wealth. Ha ha. (No, not a socialist; just the opposite.) |
Its not to do with laws. It is to do with unions. The Public sector union here is ver powerful. Their members almost cannot be fired a d enjoy amazing benefits that the private sector outside of the Chaebols do not get such as maternity leave for a year, generous pay rises and pensions etc etc etc... and of course job until they want to retire.
Chaebols offer good conditions but generally hire less women and force men to retire before 50 years old. |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Well put, mate.
| earthquakez wrote: |
I suspect most NETs in Korea won't feel too sympathetic for these Korean teachers and will understand the karmic b###chslap being delivered here.
Many of those same contract Korean teachers were also the ones who didn't give a tinker's about NETs being in positions that are insecure and stressful because of the possibility of not being renewed, being assessed by stupid or vindictive students or just subjected to the usual illogical decisions of Korean bureaucracy. They scapegoated the NETs or were happy to join in the usual scapegoating etc.
My message to those Korean teachers is - get used to it. Contract labour is a reality and you're going to have it more in Korea. Just like those despised foreign workers whether they're the 3D workers or the English teachers who are stereotyped as drug taking, HIV ridden perverts. Karma's a bish, aint it?  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess in our culture, you might have a shot for being permenant in some jobs if you work hard and prove yourself. Korea will always need some native speakers, but none could ever be hired in a permanent role no matter how hard they work or what they do, even if they speak Korean. |
Well, in the private sector that depends. If someone can indeed speak Korean, then they can apply for other jobs or even become a certified Korean teacher and work in the public school system. It is of course, a long process, but there are ways.
As for being hired on a permanent basis at a public school, I'd imagine that there are regulations and stipulations regarding such hires. Public schools are likely a closed shop when it comes to permanent employees. Sorry, but back home you wouldn't work permanently on the line in a closed shop unless you became part of the union and were fully certified for what you were doing. Any union around the world would have issues with management bringing in outside contract labor, then turning them into permanent employees without them being certified and part of the union like the other employees.
I know we want to desperately find some way to demonize Koreans and Korean culture and show how they are different, but this seems pretty much par for the course in labor relations. Think about it, if this happened in a different industry, in a different country, most of us would side with labor and could see the potential scheming by employers in bringing in outside non-certified, non-union labor under the guys of "temporary contract worker" and then doing an end-around the union.
Now, while I do support labor, I do think sometimes an industry could use a shot in the arm with a small sector of contract workers being brought in and not having to deal with as much red tape. From a management standpoint, I think having a constant influx of NETs would be a good way to prevent laxness in English education from permanent union employees. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails, the foreign teachers didn't take the place of any full-time Korean teachers, and the temporary Korean English teachers didn't take anyone's places, either. The reality is that the Korean teacher's union made a long-term tactical mistake by not trying to protect the temporary workers. They should have insisted on better protections for them while they joined the union. That would have increased union membership and offered better jobs to younger Korean teachers.
As for demonizing the foreign English teachers, well that was shortsighted, too. All that did was eventually lead to the slashing of budgets for English language programs which will also lead to fewer Korean English teachers being hired or retained. But if the Korean teacher's unions were smart they would have opposed the "free lunches" programs that have led to slashed budgets and less money for teachers all over Korea. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| liveinkorea316 wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Many Koreans are now on temporary contracts? Is this like in Europe, where the government has strict rules on firing and permanent status causing many young French to not be able to get a job? I often hear from Koreans about many young people here not being able to get a job. Too many rules governing hiring and firing while requiring lots of benefit payouts? I'd say take some away from those samsung dudes and share the wealth. Ha ha. (No, not a socialist; just the opposite.) |
Its not to do with laws. It is to do with unions. The Public sector union here is ver powerful. Their members almost cannot be fired a d enjoy amazing benefits that the private sector outside of the Chaebols do not get such as maternity leave for a year, generous pay rises and pensions etc etc etc... and of course job until they want to retire.
Chaebols offer good conditions but generally hire less women and force men to retire before 50 years old. |
Sorry, this was kind of what I meant. The unions enjoy legal protections. The chaebols pay very well in comparison to smaller companies because they have such a monopoly on things here. Other people get screwed while the few get the best jobs and the best perks. Effects of quasi socialism. It was similiar to the east coast of Canada, at least with the public unions anyhow. Private and public unions had extrordinary protections that it made private companies reluctant to hire or only hired temporarily through temp agencies. As a young person, I had difficulty finding a job. My baby boomer predecesors got all the benefits because they got their foot in the door when things were good, then rode all these new "protections" for all they were worth. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| dairyairy wrote: |
They should have insisted on better protections for them while they joined the union. That would have increased union membership and offered better jobs to younger Korean teachers.
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Why would temp workers join a union?
This is classic divide and conquer. While there is some overlap between temp teachers and full-time teachers, their interests are divergent enough such that it would mean they wouldn't work together.
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| Steelrails, the foreign teachers didn't take the place of any full-time Korean teachers, and the temporary Korean English teachers didn't take anyone's places, either. |
No one said they did, but any closed shop is going to react with suspicion to a large-scale influx of temporary workers, especially if said workers did not have to go through the same training but are being asked to perform the same duties.
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| As for demonizing the foreign English teachers, well that was shortsighted, too. |
There is an active, organized, demonization campaign?
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| But if the Korean teacher's unions were smart they would have opposed the "free lunches" programs that have led to slashed budgets and less money for teachers all over Korea. |
They were smart not to. First off, the bill failed. Tying yourself politically to a losing horse is not a smart move. Can you imagine if teachers back home opposed free lunches? The press would vilify them. "The GREEDY teacher's union cares more about hoarding money than making sure your child has a lunch to eat." The parents would lose it. Same here. Other groups may advocate against it, but if teacher's were to, that would raise ire. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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steelrails, the union could have cut a much better deal for its membership if it had fought the "temp teacher" label and insisted on only hiring full-time teachers. No union should support the hiring of temp workers.
In case you haven't noticed, the "Free lunches" are available and are eating up the budgets for doing other things, like hiring teachers. The union would have been wise to educate parents about the misunderstanding of the word "free" and how everyone would eventually pay for it, in some way. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:30 am Post subject: |
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A teacher who got their job because they were able to memorize for an exam but never had to actually prove themselves or be good with kids? Does that happen in Canada? Nope? Teachers do take an exam to get certified to be sure, but it isn't deliberately made overly difficult to minimize the number of certified teachers. However, even certified teachers get hired on temporary contracts until they prove themselves. Many struggle for years to get permanent work. At the same time, I knew a couple of guys hired by the school principal because they were so well liked by students during their internship.
In Korea, don't prove yourself, just memorize for two or three years to pass an absurd exam and now you're entitled to a job for life. You become part of the elite who gets to look down on everyone else. A lot of that over here in general. Folks always bragging about themselves to make themselves feel great. (I have this title, this position, this status, etc.) Put others down to boost your own self esteem. Some of these Asian cultural things, I'll never get. If I ever get this debt situation settled, at least I have a country to go back to. I feel sorry for all this ridiculous competitive pressure here sometimes my students face for life. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| steelrails, the union could have cut a much better deal for its membership if it had fought the "temp teacher" label and insisted on only hiring full-time teachers. No union should support the hiring of temp workers. |
Well, they should also consider the demand that those teachers be certified teachers or go on some sort of on-the-job path to certification.
The point is that when you look at it from a labor perspective rather than the "Mighty Korean teachers vs. the peasantry" narrative that is getting tossed about, their actions become much more understandable and the arguments are not as clear cut.
| Quote: |
| In case you haven't noticed, the "Free lunches" are available and are eating up the budgets for doing other things, like hiring teachers. The union would have been wise to educate parents about the misunderstanding of the word "free" and how everyone would eventually pay for it, in some way. |
Well the conservatives certainly did, unfortunately like back home, something like "free lunches" is hard to argue against because in so doing, you look like an ogre. "Mayor Quimby wants to take lunches out of the hands of hungry, needy children and give the money to scumbags like Sideshow Bob. Vote Sideshow Bob for mayor and protect the children." Obviously an exaggeration, but it should be easy to see why this particular issue is a rather difficult one to go against politically.
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:30 am Post subject:
A teacher who got their job because they were able to memorize for an exam but never had to actually prove themselves or be good with kids? Does that happen in Canada? |
I don't know about Canada, but I do know in America there is a huge fight going on over teachers and how they are basically unfireable and the behemoth that is their union.
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| Folks always bragging about themselves to make themselves feel great. (I have this title, this position, this status, etc.) Put others down to boost your own self esteem. Some of these Asian cultural things, I'll never get |
Yeah, never get any of that back home. 
You obviously don't live in New York. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
A teacher who got their job because they were able to memorize for an exam but never had to actually prove themselves or be good with kids? Does that happen in Canada? Nope? Teachers do take an exam to get certified to be sure, but it isn't deliberately made overly difficult to minimize the number of certified teachers. However, even certified teachers get hired on temporary contracts until they prove themselves. Many struggle for years to get permanent work. At the same time, I knew a couple of guys hired by the school principal because they were so well liked by students during their internship.
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I wish it was black and white like this but it isn't. The hiring of permanent teachers in Korea might seem arbitrary but at least there is a competitive process for getting in that is fair to all involved and doesn't involve supply teaching for a decade, whereas in some Canadian schoolboards it doesn't matter how many hoops you jump through or what you bring to the table, you're not getting a job if your dad isn't a principal. Contract negotations vary province to province and schoolboard hiring processes vary school-board to school-board. Some schoolboards give their principals virtually 100% power to hire whoever they want to hire (a disaster), some schoolboards go 100% strictly based on seniority in the schoolboard, ie, who has substitute taught the longest (almost equally a disaster). If you have friends who got jobs out of university in desirable urban areas anytime in the last 5 or 6 years, it's likely more because of who they know rather than what they know.
Temporary contracts are when the teacher who holds the position isn't available to fill the position themselves, usually because of a LOA such as maternity leave or because they themselves are filling another temporary position. In addition to temporary contracts, most provinces have a probationary system as well where a teacher needs to work one or two probationary contracts before being offered a permanent one.
On the other hand, imperfections aside, I will agree with you on one thing. In Korea, its completely your ability to write tests that will get you both the certification and the job, whereas in Canada the academics will get you the certification, but it's usually your other skills and work ethic that will get you the job. Volunteering, coaching, being reliable, etc. This is assuming that jobs are available -- big assumption these days. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| steelrails, the union could have cut a much better deal for its membership if it had fought the "temp teacher" label and insisted on only hiring full-time teachers. No union should support the hiring of temp workers. |
Well, they should also consider the demand that those teachers be certified teachers or go on some sort of on-the-job path to certification.
The point is that when you look at it from a labor perspective rather than the "Mighty Korean teachers vs. the peasantry" narrative that is getting tossed about, their actions become much more understandable and the arguments are not as clear cut.
| Quote: |
| In case you haven't noticed, the "Free lunches" are available and are eating up the budgets for doing other things, like hiring teachers. The union would have been wise to educate parents about the misunderstanding of the word "free" and how everyone would eventually pay for it, in some way. |
Well the conservatives certainly did, unfortunately like back home, something like "free lunches" is hard to argue against because in so doing, you look like an ogre. "Mayor Quimby wants to take lunches out of the hands of hungry, needy children and give the money to scumbags like Sideshow Bob. Vote Sideshow Bob for mayor and protect the children." Obviously an exaggeration, but it should be easy to see why this particular issue is a rather difficult one to go against politically.
| Quote: |
Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:30 am Post subject:
A teacher who got their job because they were able to memorize for an exam but never had to actually prove themselves or be good with kids? Does that happen in Canada? |
I don't know about Canada, but I do know in America there is a huge fight going on over teachers and how they are basically unfireable and the behemoth that is their union.
| Quote: |
| Folks always bragging about themselves to make themselves feel great. (I have this title, this position, this status, etc.) Put others down to boost your own self esteem. Some of these Asian cultural things, I'll never get |
Yeah, never get any of that back home.
You obviously don't live in New York. |
No I don't. Was fortunate to live in a place without "big city attitudes". But, I think, in the countryside, it's way worse than up in Seoul. Traditional Asian thinking is all about the Gold Digging. At least in Seoul, lots of chicks only care if you're decent looking rather than caring about the cash. (At least for hooking up anyhow. Ha ha.)
But seriously, when I was out in the country, it was status this, position that, be in debt to drive a chairman, etc. K chicks in these places loved two things, money and height. Didn't matter if a guy was in decent shape, a good person, or even attractive. Regional cities seem to be mixed and Seoul is quite friendly. I walk through Gangnam, ride the subway and am always getting a nice response or stare from the girls. But out here in the provinces, it's weird.
Not complaining, I'd just as soon not spend my life with traditional Asian women as it would be hell on earth. A friend of mine went through this crap for years before he finally wisened up and petitioned for divorce. She was pissed that he had his F5. Ha ha. (But did she ever brag to local towns folk about his status and position. Don't think she ever loved the guy and was always behaving strangely as a result and cold once married.) |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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The country can be just as bad back home. Look at all the things guys try to "outguy" each other on- Trucks, guns, deer they bagged, fishing gear, being an ass to the cops, drugs, chicks, sports, etc. etc.
It's human nature to be obsessed with status and hierarchy. Anyone who believes their culture or community is immune from it is either so used to it that it fades into the background or is delusional.
Every group that humans form ends up being hierarchical. It is in our nature to do this and no one is immune from it. |
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