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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| busanSK2012 wrote: |
A new wrinkle on this subject
My CT's are blaming the airport runway. I don't know where they receive their information, but I am always amazed by the difference between "their" news sources and what I look at.
My CT's say the runway is in a strange position and is short and not up-to-date. They said this very confidently and strongly as if this explained everything. I said that may be true, but many flights land in SF everyday and this doesn't seem to happen every week, but it did happen with an inexperienced pilot. They thought this over and then nodded silently.They really think it is the airport to blame.
I don't know what to think about this. They really feel that any Korean involved in anything, anywhere, at anytime reflects badly on all of them. that is accepting a lot of other peoples BS and mistakes as your own. I am from NY and can't imagine explaining Texans behavior-they are like aliens to me and I am sure I am to them as well. Too much BS to carry |
They are partially correct; that's a tough landing. But all the other planes have and are landing safely so that's not much of an excuse.
I agree with you on the nationalism. The first Korean news reports said the landing gear had not come down and that it was mechanical error. Anything but the pilot. |
Just to play devil's advocate here, but what if the US media is saying it's pilot error because it's anything but a US made plane? Korea is saying it's the plane's fault and something else, besides the Korean pilot and the US news is saying that it's the pilot's fault and nothing US related. |
Because it's not just the U.S. media, it's the many pilots who have weighed in on aviation forums, etc.
As for the U.S. media and Boeing, they've always reported Boeing's problems before. Why should now be different? Besides, the 777 has a great safety record. Look how it held up to the crash.
To play devil's advocate convincingly, you've got to know what you're advocating against. |
Wasn't meant to be so serious, but just to make you think that what if the US media reporting pilot error is the same as Korean media reporting it's the plane's fault. |
As he said, the US media is basing its stories on the NTSB, other pilots, etc. What was the Korean media basing their reporting on? Nothing really. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| busanSK2012 wrote: |
A new wrinkle on this subject
My CT's are blaming the airport runway. I don't know where they receive their information, but I am always amazed by the difference between "their" news sources and what I look at.
My CT's say the runway is in a strange position and is short and not up-to-date. They said this very confidently and strongly as if this explained everything. I said that may be true, but many flights land in SF everyday and this doesn't seem to happen every week, but it did happen with an inexperienced pilot. They thought this over and then nodded silently.They really think it is the airport to blame.
I don't know what to think about this. They really feel that any Korean involved in anything, anywhere, at anytime reflects badly on all of them. that is accepting a lot of other peoples BS and mistakes as your own. I am from NY and can't imagine explaining Texans behavior-they are like aliens to me and I am sure I am to them as well. Too much BS to carry |
They are partially correct; that's a tough landing. But all the other planes have and are landing safely so that's not much of an excuse.
I agree with you on the nationalism. The first Korean news reports said the landing gear had not come down and that it was mechanical error. Anything but the pilot. |
Just to play devil's advocate here, but what if the US media is saying it's pilot error because it's anything but a US made plane? Korea is saying it's the plane's fault and something else, besides the Korean pilot and the US news is saying that it's the pilot's fault and nothing US related. |
Because it's not just the U.S. media, it's the many pilots who have weighed in on aviation forums, etc.
As for the U.S. media and Boeing, they've always reported Boeing's problems before. Why should now be different? Besides, the 777 has a great safety record. Look how it held up to the crash.
To play devil's advocate convincingly, you've got to know what you're advocating against. |
Wasn't meant to be so serious, but just to make you think that what if the US media reporting pilot error is the same as Korean media reporting it's the plane's fault. |
To what end, since the chances of the U.S. media acting in such a way are slim and none?
Not being serious, but wanting people to think is contradictory. Why don't you get serious and think before posting? |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the wait is over... we now know what probably happened.
Engine failure:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/07/119_138903.html
| Quote: |
However, Jung Yoon-shik, a professor at Jungwon University based in Goesan, North Chungcheong Province, said that mechanical problems in the engines might have caused the crash.
“It is possible that the engines were not working properly when the plane was landing on the runway. With the malfunctioning, pilots might have failed to control the engines,” said Jung who previously worked as a pilot for Asiana. |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| busanSK2012 wrote: |
A new wrinkle on this subject
My CT's are blaming the airport runway. I don't know where they receive their information, but I am always amazed by the difference between "their" news sources and what I look at.
My CT's say the runway is in a strange position and is short and not up-to-date. They said this very confidently and strongly as if this explained everything. I said that may be true, but many flights land in SF everyday and this doesn't seem to happen every week, but it did happen with an inexperienced pilot. They thought this over and then nodded silently.They really think it is the airport to blame.
I don't know what to think about this. They really feel that any Korean involved in anything, anywhere, at anytime reflects badly on all of them. that is accepting a lot of other peoples BS and mistakes as your own. I am from NY and can't imagine explaining Texans behavior-they are like aliens to me and I am sure I am to them as well. Too much BS to carry |
They are partially correct; that's a tough landing. But all the other planes have and are landing safely so that's not much of an excuse.
I agree with you on the nationalism. The first Korean news reports said the landing gear had not come down and that it was mechanical error. Anything but the pilot. |
Just to play devil's advocate here, but what if the US media is saying it's pilot error because it's anything but a US made plane? Korea is saying it's the plane's fault and something else, besides the Korean pilot and the US news is saying that it's the pilot's fault and nothing US related. |
Because it's not just the U.S. media, it's the many pilots who have weighed in on aviation forums, etc.
As for the U.S. media and Boeing, they've always reported Boeing's problems before. Why should now be different? Besides, the 777 has a great safety record. Look how it held up to the crash.
To play devil's advocate convincingly, you've got to know what you're advocating against. |
Wasn't meant to be so serious, but just to make you think that what if the US media reporting pilot error is the same as Korean media reporting it's the plane's fault. |
To what end, since the chances of the U.S. media acting in such a way are slim and none?
Not being serious, but wanting people to think is contradictory. Why don't you get serious and think before posting? |
Why are you so offended by my post? I'm just pointing out the fact that people keep posting on here about how the Korean media is saying that it's anything other than the pilot's fault, while the US media is saying it could have been pilot error. So, I said think about it, what if the US media is doing exactly like the Korean media and only reporting one aspect. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened. Just saying, there's no need to get all upset about it.
Having a great safety records doesn't mean anything at this point. Something could have gone wrong even with a great safety record. Could have been an instrument malfunction on-board that confused the pilots as in this article.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/09/us/asiana-airlines-crash
Nobody knows for sure, and it's going to take a long time to figure it out. The point I was making is that two countries are reporting the same incident differently. One may be right and one my be wrong. Both may be trying to say "It wasn't me!" I just wanted you to think about it objectively for a minute and not as a Korea vs. US or Western media. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see where the Korean media is disregarding pilot error as a possible or even probable cause for the crash.
And most US news sources have at least mentioned other possibilities such as the auto-throttle or fuel line concerns as indeed being possibilities.
From what I gather, with their decision to redouble safety procedures and cockpit procedures, Asiana is telling both its domestic and foreign clientele that it is concerned primarily about pilot error.
It hasn't grounded its fleet of 777s. I think most Korean people are recognizing that. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| busanSK2012 wrote: |
A new wrinkle on this subject
My CT's are blaming the airport runway. I don't know where they receive their information, but I am always amazed by the difference between "their" news sources and what I look at.
My CT's say the runway is in a strange position and is short and not up-to-date. They said this very confidently and strongly as if this explained everything. I said that may be true, but many flights land in SF everyday and this doesn't seem to happen every week, but it did happen with an inexperienced pilot. They thought this over and then nodded silently.They really think it is the airport to blame.
I don't know what to think about this. They really feel that any Korean involved in anything, anywhere, at anytime reflects badly on all of them. that is accepting a lot of other peoples BS and mistakes as your own. I am from NY and can't imagine explaining Texans behavior-they are like aliens to me and I am sure I am to them as well. Too much BS to carry |
They are partially correct; that's a tough landing. But all the other planes have and are landing safely so that's not much of an excuse.
I agree with you on the nationalism. The first Korean news reports said the landing gear had not come down and that it was mechanical error. Anything but the pilot. |
Just to play devil's advocate here, but what if the US media is saying it's pilot error because it's anything but a US made plane? Korea is saying it's the plane's fault and something else, besides the Korean pilot and the US news is saying that it's the pilot's fault and nothing US related. |
Because it's not just the U.S. media, it's the many pilots who have weighed in on aviation forums, etc.
As for the U.S. media and Boeing, they've always reported Boeing's problems before. Why should now be different? Besides, the 777 has a great safety record. Look how it held up to the crash.
To play devil's advocate convincingly, you've got to know what you're advocating against. |
Wasn't meant to be so serious, but just to make you think that what if the US media reporting pilot error is the same as Korean media reporting it's the plane's fault. |
To what end, since the chances of the U.S. media acting in such a way are slim and none?
Not being serious, but wanting people to think is contradictory. Why don't you get serious and think before posting? |
Why are you so offended by my post? I'm just pointing out the fact that people keep posting on here about how the Korean media is saying that it's anything other than the pilot's fault, while the US media is saying it could have been pilot error. So, I said think about it, what if the US media is doing exactly like the Korean media and only reporting one aspect. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened. Just saying, there's no need to get all upset about it.
Having a great safety records doesn't mean anything at this point. Something could have gone wrong even with a great safety record. Could have been an instrument malfunction on-board that confused the pilots as in this article.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/09/us/asiana-airlines-crash
Nobody knows for sure, and it's going to take a long time to figure it out. The point I was making is that two countries are reporting the same incident differently. One may be right and one my be wrong. Both may be trying to say "It wasn't me!" I just wanted you to think about it objectively for a minute and not as a Korea vs. US or Western media. |
Now you've changed your tune. You're trying to shift the blame with illogical statements such as the plane's safety record doesn't matter, when of course it does.
So first you wanted to go after the U.S. media, which now you link to, and now you say it's the plane based on the NTSB saying it;s going to be thorough and is not ruling anything out.
You're not playing devil's advocate, you're playing the apologist. Not as well as SR maybe, but you'll get there. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I don't see where the Korean media is disregarding pilot error as a possible or even probable cause for the crash.
And most US news sources have at least mentioned other possibilities such as the auto-throttle or fuel line concerns as indeed being possibilities.
From what I gather, with their decision to redouble safety procedures and cockpit procedures, Asiana is telling both its domestic and foreign clientele that it is concerned primarily about pilot error.
It hasn't grounded its fleet of 777s. I think most Korean people are recognizing that. |
Not now, when so much has come to light, but immediately after the crash they weren't mentioning pilot error, at least on MBC. |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| busanSK2012 wrote: |
A new wrinkle on this subject
My CT's are blaming the airport runway. I don't know where they receive their information, but I am always amazed by the difference between "their" news sources and what I look at.
My CT's say the runway is in a strange position and is short and not up-to-date. They said this very confidently and strongly as if this explained everything. I said that may be true, but many flights land in SF everyday and this doesn't seem to happen every week, but it did happen with an inexperienced pilot. They thought this over and then nodded silently.They really think it is the airport to blame.
I don't know what to think about this. They really feel that any Korean involved in anything, anywhere, at anytime reflects badly on all of them. that is accepting a lot of other peoples BS and mistakes as your own. I am from NY and can't imagine explaining Texans behavior-they are like aliens to me and I am sure I am to them as well. Too much BS to carry |
They are partially correct; that's a tough landing. But all the other planes have and are landing safely so that's not much of an excuse.
I agree with you on the nationalism. The first Korean news reports said the landing gear had not come down and that it was mechanical error. Anything but the pilot. |
Just to play devil's advocate here, but what if the US media is saying it's pilot error because it's anything but a US made plane? Korea is saying it's the plane's fault and something else, besides the Korean pilot and the US news is saying that it's the pilot's fault and nothing US related. |
Because it's not just the U.S. media, it's the many pilots who have weighed in on aviation forums, etc.
As for the U.S. media and Boeing, they've always reported Boeing's problems before. Why should now be different? Besides, the 777 has a great safety record. Look how it held up to the crash.
To play devil's advocate convincingly, you've got to know what you're advocating against. |
Wasn't meant to be so serious, but just to make you think that what if the US media reporting pilot error is the same as Korean media reporting it's the plane's fault. |
To what end, since the chances of the U.S. media acting in such a way are slim and none?
Not being serious, but wanting people to think is contradictory. Why don't you get serious and think before posting? |
Why are you so offended by my post? I'm just pointing out the fact that people keep posting on here about how the Korean media is saying that it's anything other than the pilot's fault, while the US media is saying it could have been pilot error. So, I said think about it, what if the US media is doing exactly like the Korean media and only reporting one aspect. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened. Just saying, there's no need to get all upset about it.
Having a great safety records doesn't mean anything at this point. Something could have gone wrong even with a great safety record. Could have been an instrument malfunction on-board that confused the pilots as in this article.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/09/us/asiana-airlines-crash
Nobody knows for sure, and it's going to take a long time to figure it out. The point I was making is that two countries are reporting the same incident differently. One may be right and one my be wrong. Both may be trying to say "It wasn't me!" I just wanted you to think about it objectively for a minute and not as a Korea vs. US or Western media. |
Now you've changed your tune. You're trying to shift the blame with illogical statements such as the plane's safety record doesn't matter, when of course it does.
So first you wanted to go after the U.S. media, which now you link to, and now you say it's the plane based on the NTSB saying it;s going to be thorough and is not ruling anything out.
You're not playing devil's advocate, you're playing the apologist. Not as well as SR maybe, but you'll get there. |
You are the one who talked about plane safety records.
| Quote: |
| Besides, the 777 has a great safety record. |
Yes, I am an apologist in this case since a synonym for that is devil's advocate. I guess that was meant to be an insult, but it doesn't really work in this case.
I was saying that a great safety record doesn't mean that it couldn't be the plane's fault. I didn't change my tune, I just thought it was interesting that some people on this board were complaining that the Korean media was saying plane error, when the people complaining were doing the same thing by saying it was pilot error.
Not an apologist if you mean that I always try to defend Korea, which is what I'm sure you were inferring to. I tend to try to think about things objectively and see both sides of the problem if I can. Besides it was just a harmless discussion. |
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hogwonguy1979
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: the racoon den
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| OMG. Just saw the lead flight attendant on tv saying that when the plane came to a stop she knocked on the cabin door to see if the captain was ok. He said yes, so she asked if he wanted her to begin an evacuation. He said to wait. She made that announcement, but passengers were not too happy. |
Apparently that's standard procedure because running engines can suck people in. If possible, the pilot confirms if the engines are off before giving an evacuation order. Obviously if the pilots are dead, there are probably another set of procedures they're supposed to follow. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:20 am Post subject: |
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jvalmer is right.
The evacuation of a plane follows set guidelines and must be orderly. That starts with getting the all clear from the cockpit if possible. The lead flight attendant did his or her job in this case. Letting people get out of the plane in way they want would have likely led to more casualties. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Funny thing is that article quotes a US attorney....but hey who cares! |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| nicwr2002 wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| busanSK2012 wrote: |
A new wrinkle on this subject
My CT's are blaming the airport runway. I don't know where they receive their information, but I am always amazed by the difference between "their" news sources and what I look at.
My CT's say the runway is in a strange position and is short and not up-to-date. They said this very confidently and strongly as if this explained everything. I said that may be true, but many flights land in SF everyday and this doesn't seem to happen every week, but it did happen with an inexperienced pilot. They thought this over and then nodded silently.They really think it is the airport to blame.
I don't know what to think about this. They really feel that any Korean involved in anything, anywhere, at anytime reflects badly on all of them. that is accepting a lot of other peoples BS and mistakes as your own. I am from NY and can't imagine explaining Texans behavior-they are like aliens to me and I am sure I am to them as well. Too much BS to carry |
They are partially correct; that's a tough landing. But all the other planes have and are landing safely so that's not much of an excuse.
I agree with you on the nationalism. The first Korean news reports said the landing gear had not come down and that it was mechanical error. Anything but the pilot. |
Just to play devil's advocate here, but what if the US media is saying it's pilot error because it's anything but a US made plane? Korea is saying it's the plane's fault and something else, besides the Korean pilot and the US news is saying that it's the pilot's fault and nothing US related. |
Because it's not just the U.S. media, it's the many pilots who have weighed in on aviation forums, etc.
As for the U.S. media and Boeing, they've always reported Boeing's problems before. Why should now be different? Besides, the 777 has a great safety record. Look how it held up to the crash.
To play devil's advocate convincingly, you've got to know what you're advocating against. |
Wasn't meant to be so serious, but just to make you think that what if the US media reporting pilot error is the same as Korean media reporting it's the plane's fault. |
To what end, since the chances of the U.S. media acting in such a way are slim and none?
Not being serious, but wanting people to think is contradictory. Why don't you get serious and think before posting? |
Why are you so offended by my post? I'm just pointing out the fact that people keep posting on here about how the Korean media is saying that it's anything other than the pilot's fault, while the US media is saying it could have been pilot error. So, I said think about it, what if the US media is doing exactly like the Korean media and only reporting one aspect. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened. Just saying, there's no need to get all upset about it.
Having a great safety records doesn't mean anything at this point. Something could have gone wrong even with a great safety record. Could have been an instrument malfunction on-board that confused the pilots as in this article.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/09/us/asiana-airlines-crash
Nobody knows for sure, and it's going to take a long time to figure it out. The point I was making is that two countries are reporting the same incident differently. One may be right and one my be wrong. Both may be trying to say "It wasn't me!" I just wanted you to think about it objectively for a minute and not as a Korea vs. US or Western media. |
Now you've changed your tune. You're trying to shift the blame with illogical statements such as the plane's safety record doesn't matter, when of course it does.
So first you wanted to go after the U.S. media, which now you link to, and now you say it's the plane based on the NTSB saying it;s going to be thorough and is not ruling anything out.
You're not playing devil's advocate, you're playing the apologist. Not as well as SR maybe, but you'll get there. |
You are the one who talked about plane safety records.
| Quote: |
| Besides, the 777 has a great safety record. |
Yes, I am an apologist in this case since a synonym for that is devil's advocate. I guess that was meant to be an insult, but it doesn't really work in this case.
I was saying that a great safety record doesn't mean that it couldn't be the plane's fault. I didn't change my tune, I just thought it was interesting that some people on this board were complaining that the Korean media was saying plane error, when the people complaining were doing the same thing by saying it was pilot error.
Not an apologist if you mean that I always try to defend Korea, which is what I'm sure you were inferring to. I tend to try to think about things objectively and see both sides of the problem if I can. Besides it was just a harmless discussion. |
I'd say trying to obfuscate is harmful. Of course, a devil would disagree. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
jvalmer is right.
The evacuation of a plane follows set guidelines and must be orderly. That starts with getting the all clear from the cockpit if possible. The lead flight attendant did his or her job in this case. Letting people get out of the plane in way they want would have likely led to more casualties. |
Ok, but I think you both are missing my point. I was not trying to cast blame. I was just saying that it now seems that, from their vantage point sitting in the cockpit, they did not know the extent of the damage to the tail section. This appears to also be the case with those passengers sitting in business class, who are now being criticized on Chinese social media for grabbing their carry-on luggage before evacuating. But in their defense, I don't think they knew how bad it was in the back of the plane -that was my point.
From the outside looking in at all the damage this lack of urgency seems bizarre, especially after seeing pictures of the burned-out, gutted fuselage. But thankfully, the fire did not start immediately. If it had, there would have been a lot more loss of life. |
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PEIGUY
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Location: Omokgyo
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:50 am Post subject: |
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http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/07/119_138967.html
Auto throttle problems or not, three pilots didnt pay attention to the air speed indicator in the cockpit, the altimeter, and the lights on either side of the runway telling them they were too low. The ATC information is publicly available... |
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