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Who was history's greatest admiral?
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Scorpion



Joined: 15 Apr 2012

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject: Who was history's greatest admiral? Reply with quote

Horatio Nelson? nope
Chester Nimitz? error
Francis Drake? incorrect
Isoyoko Yamamoto? not a chance

The answer is Yi Sun Shin. You heard it here first.
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=57820
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well he did sink a naval fleet twice the size of his in fairness. He was a pretty good admiral. Its funny, because from what I remember from history books, he was imprissoned (for being outspoken or something) and the koreans suffered heavy defeats until they realised theyd made a very big and stupid mistake and released him.

Selective memory it would seem...


Last edited by le-paul on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: Who was history's greatest admiral? Reply with quote

Scorpion wrote:
Horatio Nelson? nope
Chester Nimitz? error
Francis Drake? incorrect
Isoyoko Yamamoto? not a chance

The answer is Yi Sun Shin. You heard it here first.
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=57820


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.

Are you actually aware of Admiral Shin's combat record?
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tiger fancini



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:24 am    Post subject: Re: Who was history's greatest admiral? Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Horatio Nelson? nope
Chester Nimitz? error
Francis Drake? incorrect
Isoyoko Yamamoto? not a chance

The answer is Yi Sun Shin. You heard it here first.
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=57820


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.

Are you actually aware of Admiral Shin's combat record?


Probably not. But who cares about that? If it's a chance to ridicule Koreans then we shouldn't let something as trifling as history stand in the way.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If ever there was a topic to just let the Koreans have their brag about, it's Yi Sunshin.
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everything-is-everything



Joined: 06 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: Who was history's greatest admiral? Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.


Actually do you have a source for this statement?
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that guy beat 333 ships with 12, he gets my vote. Though what it has to do with working as an assistant teacher in an elementary school is anybody's guess
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

le-paul wrote:
well he did sink a naval fleet twice the size of his in fairness. He was a pretty good admiral. Its funny, because from what I remember from history books, he was imprissoned (for being outspoken or something) and the koreans suffered heavy defeats until they realised theyd made a very big and stupid mistake and released him.

Selective memory it would seem...


He had a very impressive military career but I would not rank him as the greatest admiral either.

He was imprisoned because he was outspoken AND for being allied with the wrong faction at court at the time. He was released BEFORE the war started (Imjin War) but posted to an area away from the main landing zones (those were centered on Pusan /Busan). He started having an effect soon after the war started and basically decimated the Japanese fleet which led to supply issues for the Japanese land forces.

He was a great admiral to be sure but I would rank Nelson before him. Shin however, due to his record would belong in the top 5.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Re: Who was history's greatest admiral? Reply with quote

tiger fancini wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Horatio Nelson? nope
Chester Nimitz? error
Francis Drake? incorrect
Isoyoko Yamamoto? not a chance

The answer is Yi Sun Shin. You heard it here first.
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=57820


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.

Are you actually aware of Admiral Shin's combat record?


Probably not. But who cares about that? If it's a chance to ridicule Koreans then we shouldn't let something as trifling as history stand in the way.


Tiger, isn`t that Daves ESL posting rule 2?
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andrewchon



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a bunch of Euro-chauvinists. The Greatest admiral in history is Barbarossa Hayreddin Pasha (1478-1546) of the Ottoman Turks. You gotta know that Turks pwn-ed Europe for 400 years.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Such a comparison can never really be made, but...

Nelson commanded dozens of ocean going vessels against similarly sized and technologically equal enemies. He helped gurantee British control of the seas and saved his country from invasion. If he was not 'better', he was certainly more successful.

Also the seamanship involved in commanding a fleet of tall ships on a global scale, fighting battles involving hundreds upon hundreds of heavy guns is a feat that requires enormous skill.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
Such a comparison can never really be made, but...

Nelson commanded dozens of ocean going vessels against similarly sized and technologically equal enemies. He helped gurantee British control of the seas and saved his country from invasion. If he was not 'better', he was certainly more successful.

Also the seamanship involved in commanding a fleet of tall ships on a global scale, fighting battles involving hundreds upon hundreds of heavy guns is a feat that requires enormous skill.


Indeed.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Who was history's greatest admiral? Reply with quote

everything-is-everything wrote:
Steelrails wrote:


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.


Actually do you have a source for this statement?


Quote:
Admiral George Alexander Ballard of the Royal Navy considered Yi a great naval commander, and compared him to Lord Nelson of England:
It is always difficult for Englishmen to admit that Nelson ever had an equal in his profession, but if any man is entitled to be so regarded, it should be this great naval commander of Asiatic race who never knew defeat and died in the presence of the enemy; of whose movements a track-chart might be compiled from the wrecks of hundreds of Japanese ships lying with their valiant crews at the bottom of the sea, off the coasts of the Korean peninsula... and it seems, in truth, no exaggeration to assert that from first to last he never made a mistake, for his work was so complete under each variety of circumstances as to defy criticism... His whole career might be summarized by saying that, although he had no lessons from past history to serve as a guide, he waged war on the sea as it should be waged if it is to produce definite results, and ended by making the supreme sacrifice of a defender of his country. (The Influence of the Sea on The Political History of Japan, pp. 66–67.)


Quote:
Admiral Togo regarded Admiral Yi as his superior. At a party held in his honor, Togo took exception to a speech comparing him to Lord Nelson and Yi Sun-sin.
It may be proper to compare me with Nelson, but not with Korea’s Yi Sun-sin, for he has no equal. (The Imjin War, by Samuel Hawley, pg. 490)


For a Japanese admiral to say such things certainly bespeaks of both his scale and the veracity of his achievements.

Quote:
Nelson commanded dozens of ocean going vessels against similarly sized and technologically equal enemies.


One might say that part of Shin's genius was in the development and improvement of the Turtle ship design. His role as a naval engineer and shipbuilder should not be dismissed, if anything it further adds to his stature.

Also, to take a defeated and demoralized force, that had been virtually annihilated, and then to use that meager fleet to achieve a decisive victory is a remarkable feat.

Quote:
Also the seamanship involved in commanding a fleet of tall ships on a global scale


Are you actually suggesting that Nelson had a hand in communicating anything beyond very broad orders to fleets in the East and West Indies? It's not like Nimitz who could communicate by radio.

I don't think he is number 1 either. DeRuyter was certainly the peer of Nelson, if not his superior. Barbarossa is an interesting candidate.
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Ginormousaurus



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Location: 700 Ft. Pulpit

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: Who was history's greatest admiral? Reply with quote

tiger fancini wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Horatio Nelson? nope
Chester Nimitz? error
Francis Drake? incorrect
Isoyoko Yamamoto? not a chance

The answer is Yi Sun Shin. You heard it here first.
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=57820


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.

Are you actually aware of Admiral Shin's combat record?


Probably not. But who cares about that? If it's a chance to ridicule Koreans then we shouldn't let something as trifling as history stand in the way.


I've probably got two feet planted on the apologist side of things and even I think this job ad is worthy of ridicule.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Who was history's greatest admiral? Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
everything-is-everything wrote:
Steelrails wrote:


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.


Actually do you have a source for this statement?


Quote:
Admiral George Alexander Ballard of the Royal Navy considered Yi a great naval commander, and compared him to Lord Nelson of England:
It is always difficult for Englishmen to admit that Nelson ever had an equal in his profession, but if any man is entitled to be so regarded, it should be this great naval commander of Asiatic race who never knew defeat and died in the presence of the enemy; of whose movements a track-chart might be compiled from the wrecks of hundreds of Japanese ships lying with their valiant crews at the bottom of the sea, off the coasts of the Korean peninsula... and it seems, in truth, no exaggeration to assert that from first to last he never made a mistake, for his work was so complete under each variety of circumstances as to defy criticism... His whole career might be summarized by saying that, although he had no lessons from past history to serve as a guide, he waged war on the sea as it should be waged if it is to produce definite results, and ended by making the supreme sacrifice of a defender of his country. (The Influence of the Sea on The Political History of Japan, pp. 66–67.)


Quote:
Admiral Togo regarded Admiral Yi as his superior. At a party held in his honor, Togo took exception to a speech comparing him to Lord Nelson and Yi Sun-sin.
It may be proper to compare me with Nelson, but not with Korea’s Yi Sun-sin, for he has no equal. (The Imjin War, by Samuel Hawley, pg. 490)


For a Japanese admiral to say such things certainly bespeaks of both his scale and the veracity of his achievements.

Quote:
Nelson commanded dozens of ocean going vessels against similarly sized and technologically equal enemies.


One might say that part of Shin's genius was in the development and improvement of the Turtle ship design. His role as a naval engineer and shipbuilder should not be dismissed, if anything it further adds to his stature.

Also, to take a defeated and demoralized force, that had been virtually annihilated, and then to use that meager fleet to achieve a decisive victory is a remarkable feat.

Quote:
Also the seamanship involved in commanding a fleet of tall ships on a global scale


Are you actually suggesting that Nelson had a hand in communicating anything beyond very broad orders to fleets in the East and West Indies? It's not like Nimitz who could communicate by radio.

I don't think he is number 1 either. DeRuyter was certainly the peer of Nelson, if not his superior. Barbarossa is an interesting candidate.


Yi was certainly a great naval commander, one of the best the world has ever seen. I also agree that his technical skill was immense, but he was fighting a vastly inferior enemy.

The sheer scale of his victories is testament to the Japanese disadvantage. They were essentially turkey shoots at slow moving transports, each Japanese ship carrying less than half a dozen cannon. The average Korean ship carried nearly two dozen.

Destroying 80 odd ships for the loss of one or two of your own is similar to British victories over numerically superior Chinese junks. On paper impressive, but when you break it down you see that the gap in quality is so great that the victory is a result of more than just tactical genius.

The big difference is that the battles of Yi were essentially between that of coastal navies. The Japanese ships were basically armored transports, they were not warships. They were used as platforms for melee combat.

Contrast that with the French, Spanish etc navies whose ships were more than a match for anything that Britain possessed. Nelson was fighting enemies whose technical skill was in some ways superior.

When I talk about global scale I am talking about the fact that Nelson's war was fought across oceans. He was an admiral that directed the ships under his command in diverse environments from the West Indies to the Egyptian coast, from the Baltic to Trafalgar.

Yi never left the coast of Korea, always fighting with the home advantage, close to his supply lines.

I don't mean to disparage Yi and his abilities, I just think that Yi is used in the same way that Britain uses Rorke's Drift. A nice tale of victory to try and soothe the pain of catastrophic defeat.
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