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Who was history's greatest admiral?
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putting that in a job posting is totally worthy of ridicule.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having just read up on the wiki account of the battle, I'm now curious: did Tyrion's use of the chain in the Battle of the Blackwater (spoiler) reference the Battle of Myeongnyang? Or has that been a fairly common naval tactic throughout history?
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the Admiral in the most pivotal naval battle of all time?
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Scorpion



Joined: 15 Apr 2012

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

northway wrote:
Putting that in a job posting is totally worthy of ridicule.


Exactly. Whether he was a great admiral or not, it has no business in a job advert. But uber-nationalism has to pervade all aspects of Korean culture. I was asked at lunch yesterday if I liked "Korean tomatoes".Confused They've even drafted their vegetables into the propaganda offensive.

Korea has the best food "in the world".
K-pop is famous "all over the world."
Rain is a "world star".
Korean language is the most scientific "in the world."
Admiral Shin the greatest admiral "in world history."

It becomes annoying after a while. Why can't they just say that Shin was a great admiral and leave it at that. And what the hell is it doing in an ESL job advert?

Indeed worthy of ridicule.
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robbie_davies



Joined: 16 Jun 2013

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Who was history's greatest admiral? Reply with quote

everything-is-everything wrote:
Steelrails wrote:


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.


Actually do you have a source for this statement?


Course he doesn't!
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scorpion wrote:
northway wrote:
Putting that in a job posting is totally worthy of ridicule.


Exactly. Whether he was a great admiral or not, it has no business in a job advert. But uber-nationalism has to pervade all aspects of Korean culture. I was asked at lunch yesterday if I liked "Korean tomatoes".Confused They've even drafted their vegetables into the propaganda offensive.

Korea has the best food "in the world".
K-pop is famous "all over the world."
Rain is a "world star".
Korean language is the most scientific "in the world."
Admiral Shin the greatest admiral "in world history."

It becomes annoying after a while. Why can't they just say that Shin was a great admiral and leave it at that. And what the hell is it doing in an ESL job advert?

Indeed worthy of ridicule.


Actually, I'm not sure one idiot's job post says anything about the country at large. Yeah, Koreans can be pretty nationalistic, but this is so stupid that I'm ot going to draw any conclusions from it.
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Smithington



Joined: 14 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
If that guy beat 333 ships with 12, he gets my vote. Though what it has to do with working as an assistant teacher in an elementary school is anybody's guess


When someone makes any claim like that (12 ships defeating 333) I'm immediately skeptical and demand evidence. On the surface, it seems very, very unlikely that this happened. Is it Koreans making this assertion, or are there outside source that confirm this feat? I wouldn't accept any statement about Korea's past (from any Korean source) without outside corroboration. They tend to embellish and exagerate any and all Korean accomplishments. This Shin guy may have been a highly competent admiral, but 12 ships defeating 333. Sorry, but that just doesn't seem plausible to me. Remember, Koreans also claimed that they dfeated a "British invasion" of Korea in the 18th century. That 'invasion' was comprised of a single ship. Confused
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smithington wrote:
edwardcatflap wrote:
If that guy beat 333 ships with 12, he gets my vote. Though what it has to do with working as an assistant teacher in an elementary school is anybody's guess


When someone makes any claim like that (12 ships defeating 333) I'm immediately skeptical and demand evidence. On the surface, it seems very, very unlikely that this happened. Is it Koreans making this assertion, or are there outside source that confirm this feat? I wouldn't accept any statement about Korea's past (from any Korean source) without outside corroboration. They tend to embellish and exagerate any and all Korean accomplishments. This Shin guy may have been a highly competent admiral, but 12 ships defeating 333. Sorry, but that just doesn't seem plausible to me. Remember, Koreans also claimed that they dfeated a "British invasion" of Korea in the 18th century. That 'invasion' was comprised of a single ship. Confused


Actually, his adversaries, the Japanese confirm it.

Hence my quote by Admiral Togo.

robbie_davies wrote:
everything-is-everything wrote:
Steelrails wrote:


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.


Actually do you have a source for this statement?


Course he doesn't!


Except if you read my responses, you see Admiral Togo and a British Admiral saying the same thing. If you go on military history websites you'll see similar things.

I should throw in Barbarossa and Nimitz in there, even the Spruance gallery.

The point is, claiming Admiral Yi is the greatest Admiral in history is not some cockamamie claim. It's like claiming Washington vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln as "The greatest President" or Elizabeth I vs. Victoria.
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robbie_davies



Joined: 16 Jun 2013

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Smithington wrote:
edwardcatflap wrote:
If that guy beat 333 ships with 12, he gets my vote. Though what it has to do with working as an assistant teacher in an elementary school is anybody's guess


When someone makes any claim like that (12 ships defeating 333) I'm immediately skeptical and demand evidence. On the surface, it seems very, very unlikely that this happened. Is it Koreans making this assertion, or are there outside source that confirm this feat? I wouldn't accept any statement about Korea's past (from any Korean source) without outside corroboration. They tend to embellish and exagerate any and all Korean accomplishments. This Shin guy may have been a highly competent admiral, but 12 ships defeating 333. Sorry, but that just doesn't seem plausible to me. Remember, Koreans also claimed that they dfeated a "British invasion" of Korea in the 18th century. That 'invasion' was comprised of a single ship. Confused


Actually, his adversaries, the Japanese confirm it.

Hence my quote by Admiral Togo.

robbie_davies wrote:
everything-is-everything wrote:
Steelrails wrote:


Actually, military historians are in agreement that its pretty much a three-way tie between Shin, DeRuyter, and Nelson.


Actually do you have a source for this statement?


Course he doesn't!


Except if you read my responses, you see Admiral Togo and a British Admiral saying the same thing. If you go on military history websites you'll see similar things.

I should throw in Barbarossa and Nimitz in there, even the Spruance gallery.

The point is, claiming Admiral Yi is the greatest Admiral in history is not some cockamamie claim. It's like claiming Washington vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln as "The greatest President" or Elizabeth I vs. Victoria.


Find at least three military historians who have Nelson, Yi and DeRuyter at a tie - off you go and don't come back until you find them!
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Zyzyfer



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
The point is, claiming Admiral Yi is the greatest Admiral in history is not some cockamamie claim. It's like claiming Washington vs. Jefferson vs. Lincoln as "The greatest President" or Elizabeth I vs. Victoria.


Holy crap YOU SPELLED IT CORRECTLY. (I had to check)

northway wrote:
Actually, I'm not sure one idiot's job post says anything about the country at large. Yeah, Koreans can be pretty nationalistic, but this is so stupid that I'm ot going to draw any conclusions from it.


Indeed. Back when there were no replies, I read this and went from "Hey this person doesn't know how badass Yi Sun-shin was I better type something about that!" to "Oh haha look, what a terrible ad that is, I should type something about that!" to "Bah how do you extrapolate from a really stupid approach to an ad that Koreans think Yi Sun-shin is the greatest admiral in history, I can't be bothered replying."

And yet here I am, replying. It's Steely's fault for having nigh impeccable spelling.
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Smithington



Joined: 14 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The argument that Shin (with 12 ships) defeated a Japanese flotilla (with 333 ships) is definitely worthy of note. That's a feat right up there with Samson wiping out the entire Philistine army using only a horse's jawbone. The latter is obviously mythology, the former almost certainly myth too. It is almost certainly an exagerated version of the truth. Now, if it did indeed happen we need to know a) the weather conditions (remember the Spanish Armada wasn't defeated so much by Drake as by the weather) and b) what types of ships were actually sunk by Shin. Ships, boats and crafts come in all shapes and sizes. We need details from objective outside sources.

Another thing. If this really happened, you'd think the Korean government would be trying to recover some of these 333 ships, or at least get some photographic evidence of their existence at the bottom of the sea.

I will remain skeptical until someone can set me straight with hard, indisputable facts.
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robbie_davies



Joined: 16 Jun 2013

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smithington wrote:
The argument that Shin (with 12 ships) defeated a Japanese flotilla (with 333 ships) is definitely worthy of note. That's a feat right up there with Samson wiping out the entire Philistine army using only a horse's jawbone. The latter is obviously mythology, the former almost certainly myth too. It is almost certainly an exagerated version of the truth. Now, if it did indeed happen we need to know a) the weather conditions (remember the Spanish Armada wasn't defeated so much by Drake as by the weather) and b) what types of ships were actually sunk by Shin. Ships, boats and crafts come in all shapes and sizes. We need details from objective outside sources.

Another thing. If this really happened, you'd think the Korean government would be trying to recover some of these 333 ships, or at least get some photographic evidence of their existence at the bottom of the sea.

I will remain skeptical until someone can set me straight with hard, indisputable facts.


Indeed, the Mary Rose was dragged up from the seabed 450 years after it was sunk - so there must be a load of wreckages on the seabed where the battle took place.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smithington wrote:
The argument that Shin (with 12 ships) defeated a Japanese flotilla (with 333 ships) is definitely worthy of note. That's a feat right up there with Samson wiping out the entire Philistine army using only a horse's jawbone. The latter is obviously mythology, the former almost certainly myth too. It is almost certainly an exagerated version of the truth. Now, if it did indeed happen we need to know a) the weather conditions (remember the Spanish Armada wasn't defeated so much by Drake as by the weather) and b) what types of ships were actually sunk by Shin. Ships, boats and crafts come in all shapes and sizes. We need details from objective outside sources.

Another thing. If this really happened, you'd think the Korean government would be trying to recover some of these 333 ships, or at least get some photographic evidence of their existence at the bottom of the sea.

I will remain skeptical until someone can set me straight with hard, indisputable facts.


Well, 200 of those craft were transports and the Korean ships had a descisive technological advantage over the Japanese warships.

Basically Yi was able to maneuver the Japaneseinto a strait and "cross their T" allowing him to engage the ships piecemeal as they came up to his line.

But the fact is that Yi's record is confirmed by his adversaries, the Japanese, and he was a legend in the Japanese Imperial Navy, so I think we can trust the veracity of the battle reports.

Also he didn't destroy all of the ships, he put hors de combat about 1/3rd of them and convinced the rest of the Japanese fleet to withdraw.
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Smithington



Joined: 14 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you provide a link to the Japanese source, please. Also, it must be remembered that, in all sectors of human endeavor, there are jealousies and competitions. Is it possible that the Japanese source was out to discredit the Japanese admiral that performed so poorly against Shin, and exagerated the extent of his defeat. "Look at his incompetence. His navy of 333 ships was deafeated by 12 Korean ships. Yokohama should be dismissed and the rank of admiral of the Japanese fleet given to me." So given the tendency of we primates to back-stab one another as we climb the career ladder, it's wise to approach this Japanese source with a skeptical mind. Even fifty ships being sunk by twelve would remain a remarkable event. The story as told just seems to be highly embellished. And let's remember that 'history' as taught in Korea is little more than a propaganda exercise. I'm not saying Shin wasn't the reincarnation of Samson. I'm just skeptical.

Again, I'd be interesting in hearing about the Japanese source.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smithington wrote:
Could you provide a link to the Japanese source, please. Also, it must be remembered that, in all sectors of human endeavor, there are jealousies and competitions. Is it possible that the Japanese source was out to discredit the Japanese admiral that performed so poorly against Shin, and exagerated the extent of his defeat. "Look at his incompetence. His navy of 333 ships was deafeated by 12 Korean ships. Yokohama should be dismissed and the rank of admiral of the Japanese fleet given to me." So given the tendency of we primates to back-stab one another as we climb the career ladder, it's wise to approach this Japanese source with a skeptical mind. Even fifty ships being sunk by twelve would remain a remarkable event. The story as told just seems to be highly embellished. And let's remember that 'history' as taught in Korea is little more than a propaganda exercise. I'm not saying Shin wasn't the reincarnation of Samson. I'm just skeptical.

Again, I'd be interesting in hearing about the Japanese source.


Do you even know who Admiral Togo is? And by the way, the quote I posted was him talking about himself.

Quote:
Find at least three military historians who have Nelson, Yi and DeRuyter at a tie - off you go and don't come back until you find them!


As an aggregate. The three biggest names that come up on military history boards and amongst other naval officers writing of naval warfare, those three come up.

And I do believe that Admirals count as military historians.

======================================

I think of all the historical military figures who Admiral Yi most reminds me of, its Nathan Bedford Forrest. Yi was not a trained sailor, much as Bedford Forrest was not a trained soldier, but each waged war with sheer tactical brilliance and an ability to supply their men, even in dire circumstances and limited support from their central government. Their tactical brilliance was derived from common sense and an innate understanding of war.

Bedford Forrest was probably the greatest Cavalry commander that ever lived. Better than Stuart, better than Grierson or Sheridan, better than even Murat.

Yi, is probably in my estimation, number 2 after DeRuyter. Barbarossa is an intriguing candidate and I must profess a lack of familiarity with his record. This is not to dismiss Nelson. His two greatest victories are two victories of major significance. However, I don't think he was put to the test near to the level that De Ruyter, Shin, or even Nimitz was, much in the same way that Patton or Eisenhower (In their defense, they at times did face superb German commanders) are regarded as "great", simply for a few major battles.

For utter resiliance and victory, time and time again, one has to look at Generals like Frederick the Great and U.S. Grant, Sherman, Washington, Wellington, Gustavus Adolphus, and Marlborough. One might consider Lee and Napoleon, as well as Rommel, but they all suffer from the stigma "loser". Although I would say that this should not be applied to the brilliant Davout (See Jena-Auerstedt).
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