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football hooliganism in the uk - will it never end?
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robbie_davies

Joined: 16 Jun 2013

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:20 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

I never did. I just said it was an a problem with the English and in England and reflected on their culture. The same way spitting and slurping apparently are a problem with the Koreans and in Korea and reflect on their culture.

Quote:

Other cultures can have such events just fine. Other cultures condemn fan violence and view it as such a rare thing that they don't have to separate fans. They don't do that at American football/baseball/basketball/hockey games.

'Other cultures' is 'every other culture bar the English' or that is how it reads to me.

Then you go onto say that North Americans don't behave badly due to sporting events which is a complete and utter lie. As can be seen from the youtube links in my posts.

Also, are you going to copy and paste the posts where anyone has written that bad driving, wifebeating and prostitution are uniquely Korean phenomenons?

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:29 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Well when people start calling an entire culture primitive and whatnot because of one bad tick like slurping or higher than normal traffic death rate, I don't think that is a good original projection either. Thus, a bad mirror...

Yes, with you on that one. I always find such comments distasteful

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject:

robbie_davies wrote:

Then you go onto say that North Americans don't behave badly due to sporting events which is a complete and utter lie. As can be seen from the youtube links in my posts.

Nope, I never said that. Now its my turn to tell you to check the reading comprehension. I said that you don't have the hooliganism culture and you don't have lines of cops between fan sections in the stands.

All countries have the occasional bruhaha over a sporting event. But not all of them find it necessary to separate fans from other teams with a line of cops and empty seats. Some cultures other than the English might. But that is not an occurance in North America or Korea.

Quote:

Also, are you going to copy and paste the posts where anyone has written that bad driving, wifebeating and prostitution are uniquely Korean phenomenons?

And Just as when someone says Koreans behave badly by beating their wives in Korea and it seems to be a part of the culture here, that they know its not a uniquely Korean phenomenon, I didn't say hooliganism was a uniquely British problem. I just said that its British people behaving badly in Britain and seemingly is a part of British culture. Of course I know it happens other places too.

Of course when its written that way, it sure sounds like I'm making it a cultural problem.

Quote:

Yes, with you on that one. I always find such comments distasteful

Believe me catflap, I know what I'm writing on this thread is garbage. I'm really trying to get across, that as ridiculous, bigoted, overgeneralized, wrong, insulting, and so forth what I write above seems to people from Britain, thats how "apologists" feel about much of what gets written in particular about Koreans.

I think "culture" is being used as a way to mask racism. I don't hate Koreans, I just hate Korean culture. Also, don't think they realize how similar their cultures are. There's nothing about life here that should cause one to have such conniptions.

robbie_davies

Joined: 16 Jun 2013

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:29 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Then you go onto say that North Americans don't behave badly due to sporting events which is a complete and utter lie. As can be seen from the youtube links in my posts.

Nope, I never said that. Now its my turn to tell you to check the reading comprehension. I said that you don't have the hooliganism culture and you don't have lines of cops between fan sections in the stands

But that is a different argument entirely, how some sports events are policed in the UK. Lots of huge sporting events where it doesn't happen - like when England play at Twickenham. But you are right in one aspect, violence is a problem amongst young males in the UK but it is a lot worse in a lot of places like Russia, Serbia, Croatia, Mexico etc. That is not to excuse violence of British culture because it does exist - it is a cultural aspect which is live in a lot of other cultures, including your own.

Quote:

All countries have the occasional bruhaha over a sporting event. But not all of them find it necessary to separate fans from other teams with a line of cops and empty seats. Some cultures other than the English might. But that is not an occurance in North America or Korea.

In your country - the cops have guns - in Korea - the police are armed - in the UK, our cops aren't armed, well, not for crowd control, so the policing has to be different. That is not because our idiots are worse, it is because the only way they can stop bedlam is to form 'human walls'.

Quote:

If you had just said that in the first place then nobody would have said anything because it is true. There is a problem with violence in British culture, but there is a problem with violence in all the first world anglosphere. America is as bad, there is nothing wrong with saying 'Britain has a problem with violence along with x, y, z'. Put it in its right context and let's have an intelligent debate about it.

Quote:

As long as it is based on a truth and it can be argued, then why not, what is wrong with saying 'Fan Death is daft' why is that being bigoted or insulting? Why is it offensive to mock the oversensitivity over Dokdo or their food? Call it out when it is true, what else is true is the fantastic industrial miracle, their years of prosperity are now - 40-50 years after the UK and the US had theirs, the safety, the modernity, the generosity of Koreans - which is always a marked difference in contrast to tight arsed ESL teachers. It is not a black and white issue - there are lots of good things about Korea and the Koreans but do we have to put in a positive counter-point when making a critique?

Quote:

I think "culture" is being used as a way to mask racism. I don't hate Koreans, I just hate Korean culture. Also, don't think they realize how similar their cultures are. There's nothing about life here that should cause one to have such conniptions.

Are you sensitive to all what you consider racist generalisations? Are you like this when people come out with crap about African-Americans? Mexicans?

stevieg4ever

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject:

Just a side point, those aren't police that stand and sit between the fans, those are stewards; there is a difference. They are there to help enforce common law such as no smoking policies, prevent people from using racist or homophobic language etc They are also there to assist the disabled and to help in case of an emergency.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:51 pm Post subject:

stevieg4ever wrote:

Just a side point, those aren't police that stand and sit between the fans, those are stewards; there is a difference.

They are there to help enforce common law such as no smoking policies, prevent people from using racist or homophobic language etc They are also there to assist the disabled and to help in case of an emergency.

Really then how come they stand between rival groups? How come there are columns of empty seats between rival fan groups? How come they aren't on every set stairs, just the ones between fans?

And they need that huge line of ushers to enforce no smoking policies? Gee, doesn't sound very civilized or that British smokers show much courtesy. Must have a major problem there. Racist language? Looks like the culture has a fair amount of xenophobia. Well what do you expect, unlike Korea the Brits have parties like the BNP. Even Labour is starting to lurch to the right when it comes to immigration issues.

Old fat expat

Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:40 am Post subject:

If it were British culture then wouldn't we have cricket riots? Morris dance riots? I think it's all about the round ball.

cj1976

Joined: 26 Oct 2005

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:21 am Post subject:

Old fat expat wrote:

If it were British culture then wouldn't we have cricket riots? Morris dance riots?

I think it's all about the round ball.

I gave up on football a while ago. While the game itself is fine, there are too many idiots involved on and off the pitch. Nowadays, I am a rugby union man.

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:28 am Post subject:

Quote:

I gave up on football a while ago. While the game itself is fine, there are too many idiots involved on and off the pitch. Nowadays, I am a rugby union man.

No offence but you were never a real fan. You and others will probably disagree and make fun of this but I can't imagine anyone I know who really follows a team to come out with a statement like this. It just wouldn't present itself as an option

cj1976

Joined: 26 Oct 2005

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:20 am Post subject:

edwardcatflap wrote:

Quote:

I gave up on football a while ago. While the game itself is fine, there are too many idiots involved on and off the pitch. Nowadays, I am a rugby union man.

To be honest, I don't know if I agree or disagree. I loved the game as a kid. I followed Liverpool almost religiously during the 80s and 90s, and I played in teams through my childhood. I just think the game changed in such a way that I became disillusioned. I would say I was a fan but not a fanatic. Same as rugby. I like it but I don't obsess over it. It is just a game after all

cj1976

Joined: 26 Oct 2005

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:38 am Post subject:

Another thing about football culture in the UK is that is so ubiquitous. I find it so tedious talking about it simply because people don't have anything to say. I do read about it in the sports pages but I don't care like i once did. It used to be so important to me and my friends when we were younger, but I guess our priorities and tastes changed. Maybe I never was a 'real' fan but I really did enjoy it.

robbie_davies

Joined: 16 Jun 2013

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject:

edwardcatflap wrote:

Quote:

I gave up on football a while ago. While the game itself is fine, there are too many idiots involved on and off the pitch. Nowadays, I am a rugby union man.

I don't know about that, I followed my hometown team, West Brom home and away as a kid, all the way to joining the army. Feared for my life at places like Ayresome Park and Upton Park, was obsessed, now - I just glance at the results, I am not a real fan now but then - I was barmy about them. I think some people move on to other pursuits.

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