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Americans blame 'government welfare' for persistent poverty
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2003/09/childrenfamilies-haskins

TL;DR:

"Most people are poor in the United States because they either do not work or work too few hours to move themselves and their children out of poverty. More specifically, the heads of poor families with children worked only one half as many hours, on average, as the heads of nonpoor families with children"

"Another striking difference between the poor and nonpoor is the much smaller proportion of the poor who are married. In 2001, 81 percent of nonpoor families with children were headed by married couples. This compares to only 40 percent among poor families with children"

"Still a third difference between the poor and the nonpoor is in levels of education. The average head of a poor family with children is a high school dropout"

"Finally, poor families have more children than the nonpoor, requiring that their limited incomes support more people."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's another good article:

Two Classes, Divided by ‘I Do’
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/us/two-classes-in-america-divided-by-i-do.html?pagewanted=1&%2360&%2359&_r=2&hp&%2359;http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/us/two-classes-in-america-divided-by-i-do.html

"Less-educated women are also more likely to have children with more than one man. Analyzing nearly 2,000 mothers in their mid- to late 20s, Child Trends found that a third of those with high school degrees or less already had children with multiple men."
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I see what you meant now WT.

Thanks
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler wrote:
I do, little man, but what's your point?



You were whinging about paying higher taxes to the government so Mr. Fox could get money from the Korean government.

I'm merely pointing out that you do too so blaming Mr. Fox for what you are doing seems a tad hypocritical.

And yes there are lots of taxes in Korea but it is still lower than say Canada or U.S (for the most part).
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
You were whinging about paying higher taxes to the government so Mr. Fox could get money from the Korean government.

I'm merely pointing out that you do too so blaming Mr. Fox for what you are doing seems a tad hypocritical.

Bad analogy/debate tactic. (I don't have kids in Korea, nor would I want to.) Fox wrote this:
Fox wrote:
Households receive a 양육비 of 150,000 원 per month per child, so for our twins that's 300,000 원 a month. And that's just direct funds: if you consider health care (cheap) and child care (subsidized nannies or free daycare), Korea completely blows the US out of the water in terms of assistance provided to parents.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/21/study-in-most-states-welfare-pays-more-than-minimum-wage-job/

"The federal government currently funds 126 separate anti-poverty programs at an annual cost of $688 billion."

Wow. That's just the federal government. With the state and local governments added in, a TON of money is being given to poor people in the U.S. Sad
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/21/study-in-most-states-welfare-pays-more-than-minimum-wage-job/

"The federal government currently funds 126 separate anti-poverty programs at an annual cost of $688 billion."

Wow. That's just the federal government. With the state and local governments added in, a TON of money is being given to poor people in the U.S. Sad


Considering the military's budget is $672 billion this FY, I wouldn't say that is a ton of money being given to the poor. Also, what is this country's GDP? Nearly $15 trillion. The US government is expected to receive $2.9 trillion in FY13. $688 billion is a drop in the ocean.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
World Traveler wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/21/study-in-most-states-welfare-pays-more-than-minimum-wage-job/

"The federal government currently funds 126 separate anti-poverty programs at an annual cost of $688 billion."

Wow. That's just the federal government. With the state and local governments added in, a TON of money is being given to poor people in the U.S. Sad


Considering the military's budget is $672 billion this FY, I wouldn't say that is a ton of money being given to the poor. Also, what is this country's GDP? Nearly $15 trillion. The US government is expected to receive $2.9 trillion in FY13. $688 billion is a drop in the ocean.


Well, I do not know that I would call $688 billion a drop in the ocean, but it certainly doesn't offend me that our government ostensibly spends as much helping the poor as it does on the military.

I actually don't necessarily disagree that certain welfare setups can disincentivize work, which is why we should abandon means-tested welfare programs altogether and simply institute a basic income. Working should only ever improve your lot, and with the basic income, it does, precisely because the basic income is not means tested. Moreover, because of the basic income ensuring a minimum standard of living, regulations like minimum wage and even basic unemployment insurance (though supplemental, private unemployment insurance for high earners who could not maintain their standard of living on the basic income would probably exist) could be abandoned.

The net result of lower class Americans having this kind of security would probably be both economically stimulative and promotive of self-improvement. The big losers would be organizations like Wal-Mart and McDonald's, who rely on people having to choose between working (almost) full time for poverty wages or losing the little they have in order to coerce people into accepting the former. With food, housing, and health care assured, it suddenly becomes much easier to study and raise your qualifications instead of settling for that; some may still settle, but no one would be trapped. That's real freedom: not merely freedom from political oppression, but freedom from economic oppression as well. The obviously emancipatory nature of such a scheme is, of course, exactly why its opponents would try to slander it as a form of dependence and confinement, and the average American would almost assuredly believe those slanders.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:


I actually don't necessarily disagree that certain welfare setups can disincentivize work, which is why we should abandon means-tested welfare programs altogether and simply institute a basic income. Working should only ever improve your lot, and with the basic income, it does, precisely because the basic income is not means tested. Moreover, because of the basic income ensuring a minimum standard of living, regulations like minimum wage and even basic unemployment insurance (though supplemental, private unemployment insurance for high earners who could not maintain their standard of living on the basic income would probably exist) could be abandoned.

The net result of lower class Americans having this kind of security would probably be both economically stimulative and promotive of self-improvement. The big losers would be organizations like Wal-Mart and McDonald's, who rely on people having to choose between working (almost) full time for poverty wages or losing the little they have in order to coerce people into accepting the former. With food, housing, and health care assured, it suddenly becomes much easier to study and raise your qualifications instead of settling for that; some may still settle, but no one would be trapped. That's real freedom: not merely freedom from political oppression, but freedom from economic oppression as well. The obviously emancipatory nature of such a scheme is, of course, exactly why its opponents would try to slander it as a form of dependence and confinement, and the average American would almost assuredly believe those slanders.


I agree. Public goods are best left public. Education is free, for all. It is not means tested.

Everyone and their dependents could get $100/month in food stamps: $360 billion well spent, and only 2.5% of GDP to buffer against hunger (all other agricultural subsidies could be abolished).

Everyone could receive non-elective healthcare, and we would be richer to devote as much as 10% of GDP to that cause.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A big problem in America is people who shouldn't be having children are bringing children into the world (by the millions). Look at this link:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wwii-veteran-survived-bullet-okinawa-dies-attack-washington-parking-lot-article-1.1434708
Do you think the attackers came from dead beat parents (poor people who suck at raising kids and who should not be having kids, especially multiple kids)? I do.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler wrote:
A big problem in America is people who shouldn't be having children are bringing children into the world (by the millions). Look at this link:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wwii-veteran-survived-bullet-okinawa-dies-attack-washington-parking-lot-article-1.1434708
Do you think the attackers came from dead beat parents (poor people who suck at raising kids and who should not be having kids, especially multiple kids)? I do.


This is an especially stupid kind of anecdotal argument, because then all another person would have to do is bring up one of the very many people born to poor families that succeeded.

World Traveler wrote:
I will tell you a personal story. My family was briefly on food stamps. I still think it is wrong though. If there were no food stamps, would I have starved? No, what would have happened is my parents would have had to have gone to a church food pantry to get food. And they probably would have felt embarassed about that, which would have caused them to work harder to find more work and/or better paying work. That would have probably benefited me (and them) more in the long run.


There, see how easy that was.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
This is an especially stupid kind of anecdotal argument, because then all another person would have to do is bring up one of the very many people born to poor families that succeeded.

Americans born into poor (non immigrant) families are far, far, far more likely to have crap parents, and as a consequence are far, far, far less likely to succeed. They are much more likely to leave the world worse off for having been born.

And who's to say I'm a success? I'm not. I failed in life. (That's why I'm in Korea teaching ESL. This wasn't my lifelong dream growing up.) It's not that bad though, and my parents weren't that poor at least for long. Things could have been much worse. But I did have to go to ghetto inner city public schools which really sucked and stunted my intellectual growth.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler wrote:
Leon wrote:
This is an especially stupid kind of anecdotal argument, because then all another person would have to do is bring up one of the very many people born to poor families that succeeded.

Americans born into poor (non immigrant) families are far, far, far more likely to have crap parents, and as a consequence are far, far, far less likely to succeed. They are much more likely to leave the world worse off for having been born.

And who's to say I'm a success? I'm not. I failed in life. (That's why I'm in Korea teaching ESL. This wasn't my lifelong dream growing up.) It's not that bad though, and my parents weren't that poor at least for long. Things could have been much worse. But I did have to go to ghetto inner city public schools which really sucked and stunted my intellectual growth.


Are you arguing that your parents shouldn't have had you? As a complete aside from the general ongoing thread, that is an interesting dilemma/point.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't come from generational poverty. My grandparents were lower middle class or middle class. My parents didn't stay poor forever. If they needed money, they could have asked their parents for it.

But yeah being poor sucks. My life would have been better had my parents had more money. I certainly didn't reach my full potential. When I was a kid, I was way smarter than others my age. Maybe it was just chance. Or maybe it was (intermittent) good parenting from my (non generationally poor) parents. But yes, I have had a lot of misery in my life, and there are many times when I wish I hadn't been born. I feel sad thinking about this and typing this.
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radcon



Joined: 23 May 2011

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler wrote:
I have had a lot of misery in my life, and there are many times when I wish I hadn't been born. I feel sad thinking about this and typing this.


But look at you now- you are a "World Traveler."
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you are too, Conrad. So I guess we have a lot to be thankful for. (But I don't really like traveling anymore; it's just an old user name I chose before I had traveled the world.)

About the topic: I lived in government housing in Flint, Michigan for a bit. Did the government handouts help my life? Probably not. I think a lack of them (or reduction of them...or at least a revision to how they are distributed) can change a society for the better.
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