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What do you think of "male-free" zones?
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Weigookin74

Joined: 26 Oct 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject:

In my experience, if women want to meet you, they'll come and find you (women zones or not).

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:31 pm Post subject:

atwood wrote:

Captain Corea wrote:

busanSK2012 wrote:

captain corea..

most males have no idea how much nonsense women put up with on a daily basis...

Most women will tell you they are approached, touched or verbally harassed by random men at least a few times a week. so this is AVERAGE for us. the percentage of men that do it?? who knows, but it is a constant barrage of unwanted attention. And I am saying this as a middle aged women..thankfully I am not in my 20's here..which is why most of the younger women travel in packs...

Specific example for you..you're thinking too small..rubbing up against someone is tame, tame, tame. My friend last week in a very crowded subway car had the male next to her ejaculate all over her leg..so think bigger. And then consider why women would appreciate a female only bus or subway car.

BTW: last week at the beach..in my older aged body, a group of 5 younger korean males pulled their penises out through their zippers and swung them around for me..very nice. I left. they got to stay.

While your anecdotal evidence may suggest that these happenings are "average" for women, buy no means does that correlate to it being "average" for men. One (disturbed) man can cause numerous incidents.

So again, I wonder - is any of this behaviour "average" for guys?

I think not.

But your evidence is even weaker than hers. She at least has examples. You've just got your opinion.

Ok, here's my anecdotal evidence - I don't go around touching girls on the subway. Nor do I spank my monkey and toss semen on them.

I'll go and ask 10 buds today if they do the same... and i'll report back here on their answers.

There... anecdotal evidence that "proves" it's not AVERAGE behaviour amongst males.

Besides... let's be clear on this - look back at who made that assertion. Was it me? No. I questioned it... and still have yet to see any proof (truth be told, I was more curious as to what he'd ascribe to being average behaviour).

But ride my jock if ya like - I know you so enjoy it.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject:

Weigookin74 wrote:

In my experience, if women want to meet you, they'll come and find you (women zones or not).

So how does that address the position of the objectors who are fine with female-only zones and simply want complementary male-only zones?

Zyzyfer

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:58 pm Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

I'll go and ask 10 buds today if they do the same... and i'll report back here on their answers.

There... anecdotal evidence that "proves" it's not AVERAGE behaviour amongst males.

Yeah but do you really mean to imply that your 10 buds substantiate a large enough portion of the population to make the claim that it's not average?

Come off it man...if somebody wanted to do so, they could send this point you're trying to make spiraling into the abyss of inanity.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:08 pm Post subject:

To be clear, this is the quote that got the ball rolling on averages

Julius wrote:

Fact: average Korean male behaviour would be unacceptable in most countries of the world.

I asked what he would consider to be average (Korean) male behaviour.

Never did get a reply.

My point is, for us to talk about averages, obviously we're going to have to look at statistics. Statistics of this sort of thing may be hard to come by though... so then we drop down to surveys and anecdotal evidence.

None of it really proves anything.

Zyzyfer, notice my quotation marks around the word prove in your quote? I did that for a reason. Because just like the anecdotal evidence about guys jizzing on girls on the subway, my questioning friends wouldn't really "prove" anything.

Obviously, too small a sample.

Zyzyfer

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

Zyzyfer, notice my quotation marks around the word prove in your quote? I did that for a reason.

(still, wouldn't press the point any further if Julius high-tailed it)

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:18 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I didn't expect Julius to come back (he seems to like to drop "bomb statements" and then not come back). The conversation, if it was one, then shifted between me and busanSK2012.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

By not enforcing the law.

How are they not enforcing the law regarding sexual assault?

We already have one example of the police doing that in this thread.

atwood

Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

atwood wrote:

Captain Corea wrote:

busanSK2012 wrote:

But your evidence is even weaker than hers. She at least has examples. You've just got your opinion.

A flea couldn't ride on your jock.

You say you don't do it. What does that prove? Nothing.

You ask for proof. Can you prove you don't?

And like so many of the posters on here, you're missing the point, which is, now pay very close attention, that it is quite common for women in Korean to experience some type of sexual harassment or abuse on a fairly regular basis. whether it was from a male teacher in boarding school or a salary man on the subway.

Your whole "average" man argument is just a straw man. Or maybe it's like the song says," I'm just an average guy, I like a little on the side."

Scorpion

Joined: 15 Apr 2012

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject:

coralreefer_1 wrote:

For a personal and down right selfish reason, the more "men" who feel discriminated against, the more the society MAY be willing to fight discrimination in ALL forms.

I found this part especially interesting.

The idea of having a safe bus ride is good. But having a bus which men are banned from, is tantamount to criminalizing all men and viewing them as potential sex criminals,” said Kang Hyun-chul. “It reminds me of the old-time black-white segregation of the South Africa. It is very insulting.”

Sounds pretty similar to what many ESL people face with HIV tests, the media circus that erupts every time some douche behaves badly...etc.

Exactly. Korean men don't want to be stereotyped as potential sex offenders, but they have no problem stigmatizing every foreign male that sets foot in Korea. They get no sympathy from me.

cdninkorea

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:56 am Post subject:

Scorpion wrote:

Exactly. Korean men don't want to be stereotyped as potential sex offenders, but they have no problem stigmatizing every foreign male that sets foot in Korea. They get no sympathy from me.

It's reasonable to assert that the overwhelming majority of Korean men do not want to be stereotyped as potential sex offenders, but not that they stigmatize foreign males. Some do; maybe even a lot. But your statement implies a large majority, a claim which you have to support with evidence.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:57 am Post subject:

atwood wrote:

You always seem to love to make things personal. You know, any time you want to meet up in person, I'm game.

As for the issue, again, read the thread. Whether the average female encounters these types of issues was not what I was questioning. I was questioning the assertion towards "the average (Korean) guy's actions".

Now, maybe for you, or in the circles you hang in, assaulting girls on the train is common sport. It's not for me, nor those guys I know. So again I question this assertion towards "average guy's" actions.

I really don't think the average guy out there jizzes on girls pants on the subway.

atwood

Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:47 am Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

atwood wrote:

Thus your question was wholly beside the point and a distraction from the OP and the point of the thread along with piling on the female poster.

As for average that can be read in more than one way. For example, it can mean run of the mill, nothing special, in that it's just not a few perverts who are involved in these types of acts. That the type of males involved run the gamut, from adolescent to executive.

As for making it personal, take it anyway you like, but you're the one who makes things personal because your arguments are almost always based only on your experiences and those of the "guys you know," which is in itself questionable because it's not like this is something that most people would brag about or even admit doing. How do you know what they have or haven't done? Is this a George Bush looking into Putin's eyes type of trust?

You asked for proof yet can give none in return. I return your jibe and poke holes in your argument, and you want to rumble. Calm down, cap'n. Steady as she goes.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:08 am Post subject:

My question was not "beside the point", it was in reply to this

Julius wrote:

Fact: average Korean male behaviour would be unacceptable in most countries of the world.

And in a way, goes to the heart of the matter. EVERY male, if this type of proposition goes through, would be banned from certain areas.

Call me funny, but I presume people are innocent until proven guilty. Simply being male does not mean one is guilty of harassing females.

Quote:

.As for average that can be read in more than one way. For example, it can mean run of the mill, nothing special, in that it's just not a few perverts who are involved in these types of acts. That the type of males involved run the gamut, from adolescent to executive.

Right... that's what I was trying to get at. At what point does this go beyond a few perverts, and into "average/typical" behaviour in a society? As far as my observations go, this type of behaviour is not the norm. It would be considered abnormal by the majority here.

So... are we generally ok with putting restrictions on a certain demographic because of a few butt heads within the group?

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:19 pm Post subject:

Captain Corea wrote:

To be clear, this is the quote that got the ball rolling on averages

Julius wrote:

Fact: average Korean male behaviour would be unacceptable in most countries of the world.

I asked what he would consider to be average (Korean) male behaviour.

Never did get a reply.

I never said ejaculating on a womans leg in a subway car was average behaviour.

However most usual Korean male behaviour is still often offensive, anti-social or threatening on some level to non-Koreans, certainly to women. Unless you think death stares, qeue-jumping, pushing, shoving, touching strangers, and brazen hoking and spitting are normal.

Because in most of the world, you don't get to strut like a peacock if you behave like a barnyard animal.

And you only get to demand such levels of adulation and attention if you actually are something special.

Quote:

My point is, for us to talk about averages, obviously we're going to have to look at statistics. Statistics of this sort of thing may be hard to come by though... so then we drop down to surveys and anecdotal evidence.

Surveys are not classed among "anecdotal" evidence. I posted a governement survey here a couple weeks ago that showed the level of abuse against women in Korea to be abnormally high. Something like more than double the rates for other OECD countries.

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