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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| You are far too certain about something that is essentially unknowable, and even though I don't necessarily agree with GF's views there is no need to mock someone who is sincerely engaging in conversation. Calling something or someone, or strongly implying, stupid doesn't make you look clever. |
Say what?
Please check again the statements being made in the context of my remarks.
Human beings know very little. I know very little.
However, I do know that these guys don't know either.
But they claim that they do know.
How can they know the unknowable?
The only proof they have is from a book written by incompetent people and a god too incompetent to create competent book writers.
I do not feel these posters are being sincere in engaging in debate or conversation...really little more than proselytizing.
We could get back to the kind of advice the Pope can start/stop giving out. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2msQwpzatQc
Why are you even engaged in this silly conversation when you know as well as I do that their answer is going to be faith, it's the whole corner stone of the thing. You are essentially arguing a moot point and you know it. That you think that the bible is incompetently written is weird though, I've never heard that kind of strange line of reasoning before. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Why are you even engaged in this silly conversation when you know as well as I do that their answer is going to be faith, it's the whole corner stone of the thing. You are essentially arguing a moot point and you know it. That you think that the bible is incompetently written is weird though, I've never heard that kind of strange line of reasoning before. |
Again, they either don't understand or don't care about the position they've adopted. For The Cosmic Hum here, she has decided the text is lacking, and that that is the only thing a believer could be relying on. And now she's even backpedaling from her previous positive assertion that belief must be a delusion. People like that aren't worth conversing with on the subject, as they're really only interested in mockery, not reasoned discourse. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Why are you even engaged in this silly conversation when you know as well as I do that their answer is going to be faith, it's the whole corner stone of the thing. You are essentially arguing a moot point and you know it. That you think that the bible is incompetently written is weird though, I've never heard that kind of strange line of reasoning before. |
No worries. These threads disappearing is what makes these conversations even sillier.
I am not arguing a moot point. I am just not remaining silent while certain posters push an agenda.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| And now he's even backpedaling from his previous positive assertion that belief must be a delusion. People like that aren't worth conversing with on the subject, as they're really only interested in mockery, not reasoned discourse. |
The only backpedaling being done is by you. Welcome back to the thread you said you were leaving.
Reasoned discourse would be refreshing, but unfortunately not to be found from the delusional religious types that frequent this board.
She? How sweet. More delusions. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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GF, I have a question for you. You have stated that your diety placed a hierarchy on earth to give doctrinal and moral guidance to the faithful. How then do you account for the papacy's long history of corruption, the crusades, inquisition, anti-Jewish pograms, the accumulation of wealth, nepotism and a long catalog of other vices? The popes until recently evenm had their own state in central Italy and waged wars with its neighbors. They have also tended to make up doctrines willy nilly that previous popes, cardinals and bishops had never heard of. Then there is the the child abuse scandal of recent years, one which the pope (God's conscience on earth) demanded to be covered up. We're all aware of Ratzinger's letter to bishops and priests threatening excommunication if anyone goes to the police. This is the institution set up by your diety to not only give doctrinal clarification, but moral guidance. Rather than leading people to heaven it has driven million from the church, and created deep doubts in others. Ireland, once the most Catholic country on earth, has seen a mass exedos from the church because of the sex scandals. Indeed, the Irish government, in disgust at the cover up, even closed its embassy at the Vatican. In your way of thinking, all these ex-Catholics are on their way to hell - because of the incompetence, cruelty and immorality of the hierarchy. This cruelty went from the lowliest deacon all the way up to the pope. And this is the institution an incompetent deity, who can't get a message straight, placed on earth to oversee the faithful?
You have to be kidding me?
Let me say one thing. I'm not singling out Catholicism here. All religion is messed up, a product of the infancy of our species. All of it. If a Mormon or Presbyterian was here proselytizing I'd underline the stupidities of their doctrines too. But you are a Catholic, and you are already convinced of the errors of those faiths. I consider it a personal responsibility to help you see the absurdities of your own.
Got to go now, I've a talking snake on the other line. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Why are you even engaged in this silly conversation when you know as well as I do that their answer is going to be faith, it's the whole corner stone of the thing. You are essentially arguing a moot point and you know it. That you think that the bible is incompetently written is weird though, I've never heard that kind of strange line of reasoning before. |
No worries. These threads disappearing is what makes these conversations even sillier.
I am not arguing a moot point. I am just not remaining silent while certain posters push an agenda. |
What happens when an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object, what happens when a religious person debates an atheist... |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| That you think that the bible is incompetently written is weird though, I've never heard that kind of strange line of reasoning before. |
May I suggest you start your education with Bart Ehrmann's Jesus Interrupted and Misquoting Jesus. Both are available at Kyobo Book Store in Seoul for under 20,000 won. They are fascinating books and, unlike the bible, very well written. After reading these you will never look at the bible the same way again. You can also do a google search for any of the following:
1. contradictions in the bible
2. scientific errors in the bible
3. absurdities in the bible
4. historic errors in the bible
Actually wait, I'll do it for you. Here you are. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
The problem with the bible is that it is a collections of stories written by various characters (with various agendas, degrees of intelligence and mental health, priorities and moral susceptibilities) over 1600 years. Any human document, so compiled, is going to be full of contradictions and errors. The bible is no exception. For example, many of the stories in the Torah are told twice. Why is that? It's because the writers of each story were advocates of either the northern kingdom of Israel or the southern kingdom of Judah. They tended to interpret things to support their particular dynasty, with wildly differing spins on the stories. When the two kingdoms united they needed a unified story to go with the new political dispensation. A team of editors were brought in to fuse the two tales, and they (inevitably, perhaps) made a dog's dinner out of it. You still have the telling of each story twice, and the details are laughably at odds with each other. Bronze age incompetence I guess. Surely chaps guided by a diety would have done a stand up job, but there you have it. And then there is the howler of Noah's Ark. Every animal (two of each, actually) were able to fit onto the ark. There are approximately five million species on earth (50,000 species of spider alone) and they are spread over five continents. But the bible would have us believe they all lived within walking distance of Noah's house. It's just stupid. Then there's the story of the exodus from Egypt. Something like 400, 000 Hebrews spent forty years in the desert. Archaeologists have not been able to find a thing. No houses, no camp fires, no graves, no nothing. It didn't happen. Golda Meir, the Israeli prime minister had sent a team of archaeologists into the Sinai to look for evidence of the exodus story. Israel was obsessed with finding evidence of this, because the Israeli state's legitimacy rested in good part on these ancient stories actually being true. The team eventually met with Meir and told her, "Prime minister, it did not happen." They could find the campfire of a single Bedouin from 2000 BC, but not a single trace of the entire nation camping there for a generation. Every single team of archaeologists since that time have come to the same conclusion. It did not happen.
The contradictions and errors in the gospels are also glaring. They can't even agree on how long Jesus' ministry was (was it one year or three years?), when he cleared the temple (at the beginning of his ministry or at the end?), who his relatives were, whether he was surprised to end up on the cross, how long he was up there, who was at the tomb when the women arrived to annoint the body, and on it goes. The historic absurdities include Mathew's claim that at the time of Christ's death the sun was blocked out from the sky at midday. This clearly did not happen, or else no historian, scribe, or astrologer from Greece to India noticed this unprecedented astronomical occurence. It didn't happen. Even the other gospels fail to mention it. Matthew made it up. Same with the story about the saints getting up from their graves and walking into Jerusalem to reunite with their families. Nobody seems to have noticed this either.
I have to prepare lessons now, so I'll stop. But please take your time to educate yourself about these issues. What we now know about the bible is fascinating. I can assure you that, once you start reading historical criticism of the bible, you will never look at it through the same eyes again.
Last edited by Scorpion on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| That you think that the bible is incompetently written is weird though, I've never heard that kind of strange line of reasoning before. |
May I suggest you start your education with Bart Ehrmann's Jesus Interrupted and Misquoting Jesus. Both are available at Kyobo Book Store in Seoul for under 20,000 won. They are fascinating books and, unlike the bible, very well written. After reading these you will never look at the bible the same way again. You can also do a google search for any of the following:
1. contradictions in the bible
2. scientific errors in the bible
3. absurdities in the bible
4. historic errors in the bible
Actually wait, I'll do it for you. Here you are. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
The problem with the bible is that it is a collections of stories written by various characters (with various agendas, degrees of intelligence and mental health, priorities and moral susceptibilities) over 1600 years. Any human document, so compiled, is going to be full of contradictions and errors. The bible is no exception. For example, many of the stories in the Torah are told twice. Why is that? It's because the writers of each story were advocates of either the northern kingdom of Israel or the southern kingdom of Judah. They tended to interpret things to support their particular dynasty, with wildly differing spins on the stories. When the two kingdoms united they needed a unified story to go with the new political dispensation. I team of editors were brought in to fuse the two tales, and they (inevitably, perhaps) made a dog's dinner out of it. You still have the telling of each story twice, and the details are laughably at odds with each other. Bronze age incompetence I guess. Surely chaps guided by a diety would have done a stand up job, but there you have it.
The contradictions in the gospels are also glaring. They can't even agree on how long Jesus' ministry was (was it on year or three years?), when he cleared the temple (at the beginning of his ministry or at the end?), who his relatives were, whether he was surprised to end up on the cross, how long he was up there, who was at the tomb when the women arrived to annoint the body, and on it goes. The historic absurdities include Mathew's claim that at the time of Christ's death the sun was blocked out from the sky at midday. This clearly did not happen, or else no historian, scribe, or astrologer from Greece to India noticed this unprecedented astronomical occurence. It didn't happen. Even the other gospels fail to mention it. It didn't happen. Matthew made it up. Same with the story about the saints getting up from their graves and walking into Jerusalem to reunite with their families. Nobody seems to have noticed thois either.
I have to prepare lessons now, so I'll stop. But please take your time to educate yourself about these issues. Education yes, religion no. |
Again though, it comes back to the central issue that makes this a waste of time, the believer will point to faith and you will say what you will and they will again point to faith. Telling me to educate myself is funny, you really do think you are cleverer than everyone else here. Big hint here, being condescending and mocking is not a good way to make an argument for anything, it's not likely to make anyone want to be persuaded towards what you believe. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| GF wrote: |
| article wrote: |
| In the United States, Catholic laypeople tend to disagree with the stance that the Bishops have staked out on social issues. Most Catholics support marriage equality, and a full 82 percent of Catholics think birth control is morally acceptable. And 63 percent of Catholics support a woman’s right to choose and don’t favor overturning Roe v. Wade. |
His flock could do with more catechesis on these topics, not less. But if he still wants a change of pace, he could start by letting them know what a heretic is, and what kind of eternal reward their evil opinions will earn them. If he has any clear idea of it himself, that is. |
Let me get this straght. You are now questioning the pope's authority to teach? Isn't he put on earth to guide the church? What's all that blather about the church hierarchy and 'authority' a few pages back? Now you're telling God's chosen voice on earth what he should and should not do? |
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GF
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| GF, I have a question for you. You have stated that your diety placed a hierarchy on earth to give doctrinal and moral guidance to the faithful. How then do you account for the papacy's long history of corruption, |
We should not expect perfection from the hierarchy, who are mere men. The behavior of the apostles at various times, attested in the bible, shows this abundantly: if we were to expect godlike virtue from the apostles and their successors, the bible wouldn’t show them at times acting immorally. Strictly speaking, what we are to expect is infallible teaching on faith and morals.
| Scorpion wrote: |
| , the crusades, inquisition, |
Not being a liberal, I am hardly going to be cowed by your lazy rehashing of old bogeymen.
The Crusades: a glorious and just war effort for Christendom. Pope Urban II called the 1st Crusade in direct response to the expansionist Seljuk Empire’s invasion of the Byzantine Empire, as well as other outrages illustrated by him here:
| Quote: |
We have heard the message of the Christians of the East. It described to you the lamentable situation of Jerusalem and the people of God. It described how the city of the King of Kings, which transmitted the pure Faith to all the other cities, was obliged to pay service to pagan superstitions. And how the miraculous Sepulcher where death could not guard its Prisoner, the Sepulcher which is the source of future life and, above all, where the Sun of the Resurrection rose, was befouled by those who will not rise again except to serve as straw for the eternal fire.
A victorious impiety has suffused the most fertile lands of Asia in darkness. The cities of Antioch, Ephesus and Nicaea already are taken by the Musselmen. The barbarous hordes of Turks pitch their standards at the very borders of Hellespoint, where they threaten all the Christian nations. If the one true God does not contain their triumphant march, arming their children, what nation, what kingdom will be able to close the doors of the West to them?
The people worthy of glory, the people blessed by God Our Lord, moan and fall under the weight of these outrages and most shameful humiliations. The race of the elect suffers outrageous persecutions, and the impious race of the Saracens respects neither the virgins of the Lord nor the colleges of priests. They run over the weak and the elderly, they seize the children from their mothers so that they might forget, among the barbarians, the name of God. That perverse nation profanes the hospices … The temple of the Lord is treated like a criminal and the ornaments of the sanctuary are robbed. |
To summarize, the aims of all the crusades were to preserve the accustomed right of Christians to make pilgrimages to the Holy Land, to save relics and holy sites in Jerusalem from profanation, and to protect eastern Christendom from Muslim invasions. It is impossible not to see these as just wars.
The (Spanish?) Inquisition: like the Crusades, the inquisition was carried out on a defensive basis, to protect the orthodox faith from internal subversion, which is a perfectly legitimate aim, and it was largely successful and generally humane. Criticism of the Inquisition is generally less justified, even from a liberal perspective, than criticism of the crusades.
| Quote: |
People with no interest in European history know full well that it was led by brutal and fanatical churchmen who tortured, maimed, and killed those who dared question the authority of the Church. […]
In 1998 the Vatican opened the archives of the Holy Office (the modern successor to the Inquisition) to a team of 30 scholars from around the world. Now at last the scholars have made their report, an 800-page tome that was unveiled at a press conference in Rome on Tuesday. Its most startling conclusion is that the Inquisition was not so bad after all. Torture was rare and only about 1 percent of those brought before the Spanish Inquisition were actually executed. […]
As this new report confirms, most people accused of heresy by the Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentences suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. |
http://nationalreview.com/articles/211193/real-inquisition/thomas-f-madden
| Scorpion wrote: |
| anti-Jewish pograms, |
To my knowledge the Church herself has never called for any pogroms against the Jews. Although it must be taken for granted that in any real Christian state the rights of the Jews (and other religious minorities) will be circumscribed in comparison to those of the Christians, in general the Church has taught a mixture of firmness yet clemency towards the Jews. Take, for example, the attitude of Pope Gregory the Great:
| Jewish Encyclopedia wrote: |
Gregory was very zealous in his efforts to convert the Jews, and tried to influence them by promising a partial repeal of taxes and by offering other material support to converts. He was very emphatic against enforced baptism, however, preferring conversions brought about by gentleness and kindness. He protected the rights of the Jews, and assured to them the unhindered celebration of their feasts and the undisturbed possession of their synagogues. […]
The principle of Gregory's policy in regard to the Jews is expressed in the following sentence, which was adopted by later popes as a fixed introductory formula to bulls in favor of the Jews: "Just as no freedom may be granted to the Jews in their communities to exceed the limits legally set for them, so they should in no way suffer through a violation of their rights" ("Epistolæ," vii. 25, "Sicut Judæis," etc.). Centuries later his policy toward the Jews was still designated as the standard (Jaffé, "Bibliotheca Rerum Germanarum," p. 338). |
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6875-gregory-i-the-great
Etc.
I have responded to the child abuse three or four times on this forum; I recognize the deep fault of the churchmen on that one, but I think the situation is exaggerated by an anti-catholic media and public hungry for scandal. From what I have read, public school teachers, protestant ministers, and UN workers all abuse children at higher rates than Catholic priests, yet we don't hear about them as often.
Last edited by GF on Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GF
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| GF wrote: |
| article wrote: |
| In the United States, Catholic laypeople tend to disagree with the stance that the Bishops have staked out on social issues. Most Catholics support marriage equality, and a full 82 percent of Catholics think birth control is morally acceptable. And 63 percent of Catholics support a woman’s right to choose and don’t favor overturning Roe v. Wade. |
His flock could do with more catechesis on these topics, not less. But if he still wants a change of pace, he could start by letting them know what a heretic is, and what kind of eternal reward their evil opinions will earn them. If he has any clear idea of it himself, that is. |
Let me get this straght. You are now questioning the pope's authority to teach? Isn't he put on earth to guide the church? What's all that blather about the church hierarchy and 'authority' a few pages back? Now you're telling God's chosen voice on earth what he should and should not do? |
First of all, "teaching" has a specific theological meaning of which you are obviously unaware. You have no right to speak about these things until you bother to ground yourself in the necessary background knowledge. The pope giving an interview is not teaching, it is giving his opinions.
That said, yes, there are grave problems with the modern hierarchy, in that much of what they say and do contradicts what the Church has earlier taught. I don't rely on my own authority to make these criticisms, but on Church authority. I might be interested in discussing this with you further, if you show any genuine curiousity about it. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Why are you even engaged in this silly conversation when you know as well as I do that their answer is going to be faith, it's the whole corner stone of the thing. You are essentially arguing a moot point and you know it. That you think that the bible is incompetently written is weird though, I've never heard that kind of strange line of reasoning before. |
No worries. These threads disappearing is what makes these conversations even sillier.
I am not arguing a moot point. I am just not remaining silent while certain posters push an agenda. |
What happens when an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object, what happens when a religious person debates an atheist... |
What?
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| GF wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
| GF, I have a question for you. You have stated that your diety placed a hierarchy on earth to give doctrinal and moral guidance to the faithful. How then do you account for the papacy's long history of corruption, |
We should not expect perfection from the hierarchy, who are mere men. |
Exactly. That's why the bible, if written by a god, would have been so clear and precise that even the simplest of men could understand it. Placing a fatally flawed document in the hands of fatally flawed humans was a recipe for disaster. Yahweh for the fail.
I think we are starting to agree on this. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| GF wrote: |
| The Crusades: a glorious and just war effort for Christendom. |
Dude, you are one sick puppy. The crusades are beyond defending by anyone with a conscience. They killed men, women and children. They entered Jerusalem and slaughtered every single resident, elderly, children and infants. They then proceeded to dismember their bodies. And you call this a "just" war? It was a barbaric slaughter so that Christians could gain control of the tomb of "the prince of peace." The same prince of peace who said his kingdom was not of this world, to set your sights only on heaven, to do unto others what you wish to be done unto you. He also said something about people knowing you were his disciples by your love. The Muslims didn't witness much of that love, nor did the Jews and eastern Christians massacred by the crusaders by the tens of thousands on their way to Jerusalem.
And why be so obsessed with Jesus' burial place? Wasn't it empty? He wasn't even there. Doesn't scripture say that Christ resides in two places (and two places only), namely at the right hand of the father and in the hearts of believers. So what was so special about an empty tomb. I'll tell you what - nothing. The pope's authority was being challenged by powerful monarchs in France, Germany and England and he needed a cause to rally people back around his authority. A holy crusade of blood, massacre and abomination. Take Jerusalem and surround the tomb of the prince of peace with the carnage of tens of thousands. The place where, in your doctrine, blood was spilt by Jesus in the name of love and brotherhood was now fouled by the blood of unspeakable hatred. All so your blessed church hierarchy could keep its hands on the reigns of worldy power.
What on earth are Christians even doing with an army in the first place? Did Jesus ever mention using physical force against non-believers? No, he said that if one smites you on your cheek turn to him the other one too. He said to bless them that curse you. For three centuries Christianity existed as a powerless minority, but with the conversion of Constantine it now had control of the largest army on the planet. And the religion changed. Jesus was now a war god, and Christianity would go from being oppressed to oppressing. From that day on it was no longer the same religion. And many thinking Christians saw this. It was an attempt to return Christianity to its original, simple faith that many Protestant reformers refused to serve in armies. To this day there are Protestant churches (Hutterites, Amish, Mennonites) that are far closer to the original faith of the early church than the Catholic Church. They actual follow Jesus' admonitions to love one's neighbors. They never engaged in crusades or the massacre of "heretics". They are the real Christians, the true followers of Jesus. Not people like you.
Is their faith correct? Of course not. They believe in a lot of stupid stuff too, but they hurt noone but themselves (and perhaps their indoctrinated children). Bloodthirstry crusades are not for them. That they seem to be okay with you suggests that you are not really a follower of Jesus. You are the follower of a rich, powerful institution whose leader (supposedly the successor of a simple fisherman) lives in a palace and sits on a throne of gold.
Believe me when I say that although the pope might consider you one of his, Jesus would not. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Why are you even engaged in this silly conversation when you know as well as I do that their answer is going to be faith, it's the whole corner stone of the thing. You are essentially arguing a moot point and you know it. That you think that the bible is incompetently written is weird though, I've never heard that kind of strange line of reasoning before. |
No worries. These threads disappearing is what makes these conversations even sillier.
I am not arguing a moot point. I am just not remaining silent while certain posters push an agenda. |
What happens when an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object, what happens when a religious person debates an atheist... |
What?
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I take it you never had to do analogies for school, I'll give a hint you said you weren't making a moot point, I provided you with two seemingly random images, now as you ponder how they are related you should be able to figure out what I mean. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:17 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Scorpion" They killed men, women and children.[/quote]
Roll over? You're aware that there were two sides, each battling it out? |
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