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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Do you really think that paying a couple of dollars should get the bar staff to facilitate your alcaholism? They have enough drunken...behavior |
Drunken behavior at a bar? Oh my goodness.
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| Time to go home before it becomes my job to pick you up off the floor and call a taxi for you. |
Getting stiff drinks or some complimentary shots does not mean you are going to pass out.
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| Last call is there for a reason. See above. |
Last call is there for puritanical reasons and to enable the police to more freely impose fines and throw people into the criminal justice system where they can collect money off of them.
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| Otherwise if you want to drink around the clock, go to a night club. |
Night clubs have the same last call as bars- 2AM back where I lived. Way too early.
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I'm not going to alienate my good, polite and regular customers by letting some demanding american with an entitlement complex leap in front of them.
Money does not entitle you to behave obnoxiously.
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I am a good, polite, and regular customer. I also tip well. That's why I get to cut in front and bring my party in ahead of the line.
Stand in line and don't tip. Time is money and if 10 bucks extra for the waitress means we avoid a 30 minute wait in line- Money well spent.
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To get my no-ID people waved through".
Now that is just dangerous if nothing else. |
Oh my goodness, 19 year olds drinking. What a tragedy. Or 23 year olds who left their wallet at home.
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| Do we need any more evidence that tipping (bribery) is a corrupting force? |
Dude, its a bar. I waved bye bye to worrying about corruption when I ordered shots with Sambuca in them.
Liquor License Educator- "It is against the law to serve the habitually drunk and the mentally deficient"
"That is exactly the type of clientele I hope to attract to my bar" - John Munch.
"Hey look, mister. We serve hard drinks in here for men who want to get drunk fast, and we don't need any characters around to give the joint "atmosphere"." - It's A Wonderful Life
I'm out with my friends to have a good time. That means having some drinks and having them when we want them. Standing in line outside is not a good time. Waiting 20 minutes for your order to come is not a good time. Having to leave when the law says is not a good time. Not having the fryer turned back on to get you some food is not a good time.
If an extra 10-20 bucks each time I'm out enables me to have a good time, then that is money well spent. If I can't afford that, then I should stay at home on the porch and drink Olde English and Popov. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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You seem totally clueless, steelrails.
Have you ever worked at any job serving the public? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| You seem totally clueless, steelrails. |
No. Your comments about the US being the only place that tips is what is clueless. The tipping culture in Canada is almost exactly like the US. The only difference I encountered in the US, that I've yet to see in Canada, is bathroom attendants (but perhaps I'm just not hanging out in classy Canadian places. lol). |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know I hate to say it but I think Steelrails is right about this. People do tip with those expectations, at least hopes. And, sometimes, it works; I guess it depends on the size of the tip and who you are tipping.
As someone who has worked in service, I like the idea of tipping. It makes me more of my own boss. I do a good job and people pay me a little extra. Personally, I think it creates the opportunity to earn a higher salary than the one I would earn if it were up to my employer to pay me.
If you are annoyed by your server, if he or she is pestering you, then you need to let him or her know it, either verbally or through your tip. He or she will learn.
Tipping like any other artifact of culture is just fine as long as people understand the rules. And, that more than anything defines it as not corruption, which by definition has to be an illegal act. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
If you are annoyed by your server, if he or she is pestering you, then you need to let him or her know it, either verbally or through your tip. He or she will learn. |
Let her know is the best idea. How is she supposed to know that she is not being given a good tip because she pestered you or because the tipper is a deadbeat. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Curious what the tipping fans think of:
1) The spreading of tipping to places like coffee shops, and
2) Whether they have a clear standard of which service industries should have tips and which shouldn't. Should the furniture deliveryman for example get a tip for good service, or the mailman? If not then why the bellboy? What about the bank teller? What about if the bank actually closed five minutes ago and the teller "turned the fryer back on" to let you carry out a transaction you technically weren't supposed to be able to do? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| I keep my big tipping confined to places I regularly frequent and my standard, although still generous, tipping to businesses where tipping is factored into employee wages. If I want to tip anywhere else, there best be a good reason to. |
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beentheredonethat777
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: AsiaHaven
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Believe it or not, there is a bathroom in a high end Seoul establishment with a huge formal "see-through tip jar "nailed to the wall. (with tips in it)
Adjacent to it is a big sign that says, please tip. The next time I go there, I'll take a picture. I think that is quite ridiculous!Has anyone else seen this? I'm not into naming and shaming. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
You seem totally clueless, steelrails.
Have you ever worked at any job serving the public? |
Yes I have. I worked for tips. Money talks. I'm not going to do anything negative because you don't tip. However I won't do anything positive either. You will be getting bare minimum service and minimal patience for hassling. Tip me fat and I'll find ways to let it be known that your consideration is appreciated and will do my best to fulfill any special requests.
I've also noticed an extremely strong correlation between lack of tipping and politeness towards employees, and very generous tipping and politeness. People in the middle can go either way, but people who don't tip or tip crap are usually very impolite and demanding. People who are big tippers tend to be very friendly and understanding of any sudden complications that arise, though there are some that can be demanding as well, but servers do understand that.
Heck people who somehow find themselves short on money, but are still nice usually find a way to make it up in trade. I've gotten tipped beer, smokes, and other stuff as a way to make up for being short, usually from a bunch of partiers who scrapped together loose change and crumpled up dollar bills. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
Curious what the tipping fans think of:
1) The spreading of tipping to places like coffee shops, and |
If you ever live in the USA (I don't know what nationality you are] you will see that very few people feel an obligation to tip barristas. It all depends if you are a regular and like the barristas or you have a lot of money. However traditional coffee shops where they bring the coffee to you sitting down along with other foods, they have been tipping waitresses there for a long time, like any restaurant.
| mithridates wrote: |
| 2) Whether they have a clear standard of which service industries should have tips and which shouldn't. Should the furniture deliveryman for example get a tip for good service, or the mailman? If not then why the bellboy? What about the bank teller? What about if the bank actually closed five minutes ago and the teller "turned the fryer back on" to let you carry out a transaction you technically weren't supposed to be able to do? |
I don't know. I am sure you can come up with something that might make tipping look archaic. I don't doubt that. However people working for the USPS already make a lot of money in wages as well as people delivering mail in trucks not working for the USPS. I think a furniture delivery man does not really fit the mold of a professional service worker, although close, since their work is primarily labor related (driving large trucks and lifting heavy furniture). Service professionals typically deal very courteously with their customers. I think this is why companies (restaurants, etc.) can reduce their employee cost by passing it on to the customer through tipping. By the way if you know anything about the USA when in a restaurant where they bring the food to you, it's not illegal not to tip, but a customer will tip or they better not go back to the restaurant. Also with NYC Taxi drivers, you will tip or things are likely to become very very rude. A NYC taxi driver has to take a test regarding where the streets and locations, so they all know a lot about NYC. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:53 am Post subject: |
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I wanted to come here and reject tipping as a corrupting force and instead assert that criticism of the behavior should be restricted to its coercive, deceptive, and generally repugnant nature... but then Steelrails had to come in here and prove me wrong before I could even make my case.  Though I do have to wonder, is it the tipping culture that makes him behave in this manner, or would he attempt to resort to bribery regardless? Chicken, egg?
Edit: I have to agree about its effect on servers; that much at least is obvious.
| Julius wrote: |
| Nobody who does an honest job should be reduced to relying on charity to get by. |
This is wholly ridiculous. Tipping has become directly related to the server's performance (or, in some cases, her natural "assets"). How is it that that should be considered charity, but paying someone a minimum wage no matter his ability or that job's actual worth isn't? |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| This is wholly ridiculous. Tipping has become directly related to the server's performance... |
This argument may seem true in theory and in free-market economics textbooks, but as a guy who's worked for tips before, it's hardly the case. I've brought customers orders that were incredibly late and overpriced, and still received a fat tip. Likewise, I've given customers special "employees only" discounts and brought their orders in lightning fast time just to get under a buck. At least where I worked, the correlation between performance and tip was almost nonexistent. People basically knew what they would tip before even placing their order (which prompts the question, is tipping as a motivator even a valid argument?)
| young_clinton wrote: |
| The OP is either a tool or one of the plants that you find on the internet coming from outside organizations. That's pretty obvious. |
I've been called many things online, but these are firsts. The only organization I work for is my hagwon. I'm simply a guy who happens to think the distribution of wealth in our society is a bit f'ed up and *gasp!* thinks about ways that social relations and people's work life could be improved. If giving a shit and starting a simple freshman-level discussion online makes me a tool, what does that make you? |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
| At least where I worked, the correlation between performance and tip was almost nonexistent. People basically knew what they would tip before even placing their order (which prompts the question, is tipping as a motivator even a valid argument?) |
I can't and won't argue with your experience; I can only say it's very different from mine. Then again, my experience and that of those with whom I associate have been as the customers, and I realize that others don't always behave as rationally in the marketplace as they ought. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Is tipping corrupting? Without tipping, people are still going to give preferential service to others. It might be to the beautiful, or people of certain races, or people who can smooth talk, or customers which are more demanding and threatening, but it WILL happen.
At least tipping potentially enables those who are willing to pay more, to receive more. All the previous examples of ways people might receive preferential treatment still exist, tipping just offers people who might lack those qualities a way to receive added service. Or it allows those who work harder and put in the effort to earn their money, to ensure that those long hours get their due payoff when it comes to leisure. And as someone who was working in the service industry back home, yet was able to secure those benefits, good service from tipping is not only accessible to the middle and upper classes.
Why shouldn't waiters or delivery drivers be willing and able to sell their services to the highest bidder? Would you do the same as an ESL teacher if you were allowed to teach privates? Would you give the same service, regardless of the amount you were paid? If one parent gave you some big tips each time you tutored their kid, would you do some extras? Is that corruption? No, that's a mutually beneficial transaction. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
This is wholly ridiculous. Tipping has become directly related to the server's performance (or, in some cases, her natural "assets"). How is it that that should be considered charity, but paying someone a minimum wage no matter his ability or that job's actual worth isn't? |
If that were so, then a "customary" tip of 15%/20%/whatever wouldn't make much sense, would it? The waiters performance -- and the value the customer places on that performance -- would vary on a waiter by waiter basis, and would presumably be completely unrelated to the bill in its own right. Isn't $5 service just $5 service, regardless of whether you ordered the steak or the salad? How does the waiter's performance become more valuable in response to the quality of food one orders?
If I tipped waiters in direct correlation to their performance as relates to my desires, I'd either be tipping zero or be writing most waiters a bill, because their bumbling false pleasantries and intrusive behavior diminishes my enjoyment of my meal. This is why I find myself thinking the comparison of for-tip waiters to "charity cases" is not at all ridiculous; to a person like me, who desires the meal but not the waiter's service, their tip is charity: I'm paying them at best for nothing, and at worse for actively bothering me! The pro-tipping response is, "Go eat at McDonald's then, and you don't have to tip!" but I don't want the food at McDonald's, I want the food at the restaurant I attended. |
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