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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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 Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
| a "cycle of dependency"... |
See, you already knew something about the art of guilt. And it looks like the Republicans have 'guilted' you out of using it.
Let's try another example: if you find out that your college professor was sleeping with students, would you feel:
1. cradle robber has to go!
2. why not me?
3. when's my turn?
4. how do I get him/her to notice me?
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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3=7 wrote:
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| but it's not rocket science either |
Oh yeah?
http://www.aft.org/pdfs/teachers/rocketscience0304.pdf
ESL teachers don't just teach reading. And as an ESL teacher, you have to communicate in a second language. Talk about being handicapped.
As long as you think the job is easy, you will always be an easy mark for struggling students. This is your problem, not the students. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Blatantly racist rural hagwon students |
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Teenagers insulting teachers and acting up?
Dude, that happens in pretty much every school around the world. It's called adolescent hormonal teenagers. It's not racism. You could be as Korean as them and if they sense weakness, they'll exploit it.
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| . I get these kids once a week, twice if I'm lucky. It's definitely not enough time to build any rapport |
Defeatist attitude right there.
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| essentially I'm to blame for their lack of initiative... when really the problem is simply that they'd rather talk over the native English teacher than listen to him. |
If the soldiers behave poorly, who is responsible- the soldiers or their commander? And that's with adults.
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| Also, I don't know how feeling it's okay to punch a foreign teacher in the back, yet show utter respect for the Korean teacher, isn't racist. |
Because if you were a soft Korean teacher, they might do the same thing. I've seen Korean kids in Korean classrooms behave WORSE towards their teacher than they are towards you.
Basically, your whole post read like "I don't want anyone to tell me this is my fault or that I bear any responsibility for this whatsoever"
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My only misgiving is that I haven't wanted to create, what the Republicans call, a "cycle of dependency"... in which the only way to control the students is through skittles and pizza and so on.
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Agree with you 100% here. No rewards for simply doing your job.
Strict discipline and an atmosphere of formality. Dress nice and be stern.
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| I'm being taken advantage of based on what I lack |
It ain't almond eyes and black hair. It's fear and intimidation. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| EZE wrote: |
| The kids aren't racist. It's just a few of the adults. |
I've only had direct racism from two students in ten years, which amounted to (very badly-behaved) students saying stuff like "this is not your country" or "you're not korean" etc.
For the most part the kids don't pick up racism until they're in their teens. Until then thouigh, the general anti-foreign sentiment can rub off on the kids in the form of not taking the waygook seriously.
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| I have kept classes late enough times |
My kids have to catch the bus so I can't. I can't even kick them out of class because the parents complain they're not getting their moneys worth of in-class time.
Whoever designed the rules in Korea was obviously never a teacher. |
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Ranman
Joined: 18 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Blatantly racist rural hagwon students |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
I've learned to tolerate a lot of things here: the vanity, the ass kissing, the complete detachment from the natural world... But one thing that I can't shake is the total disrespect from my academy's students.
First, let me be clear. You public schoolers who are ready bust out the "you suck at teaching" diatribe can save it. You all get a Korean co-teacher to translate, your students actually have to try to some degree because their grade depends on it, and you get them early in the day when they're not totally wound up and burnt out.
That said, my academy is in a medium sized city way out in the sticks, and it happens to be in the wealthiest neighborhood in the province. I don't know how much that has to do with it, but [some of] these students are downright racist (though their too insulated to realize it). Just this week, my girlfriend got blasted in the back why one of her middle school girls, I've had to go crazy on a class just so they'd stop talking, and I had a student talk back and say "Do you think you're God?" and "Grace teacher is main teacher," after telling him he had to stop talking and listen. How is any of that racist? Because the students do a complete 180ยบ whenever a Korean teacher comes around. My worst class hushes up right away, students willingly give up their phones with no resistance, and I know they would NEVER touch a Korean teacher let alone punch one.
Now, before the predictable "they're better teachers than you" argument ensues, let me assure you. I've watched their classes. The teachers sit there on their cell phones doing nothing to manage the class, yet all the students quietly sit and do their work. Yet even if I'm on my A game and have a perfectly organized lesson plan, my difficult classes are still almost impossible to control. They only listen if I scream at them, and even then, a student might bust out laughing at another student's comment not computing the fact that they're being reprimanded. Worse yet, if a student does something obviously wrong like throws something at another student or yells at the top of their lungs, when I say something to them, they just look at another student as if they don't understand what I'm saying and continue on. Either their too freaking lazy to think for two seconds about the context of the situation, or they're playing dumb. Either way, it would never happen to a Korean teacher. I've straight up asked a teacher about a couple of students, and she said "they're just fine in my class. The other students say they just act differently in your class."
I'm sure some of you are still thinking, "well, how is that racist? You're just not as qualified as the Koreans because you can't speak the language." But that's just it. Because I don't know the language, they feel like they can do whatever they want. And, even if I could speak perfect Korean, it's not as if my director is going to let me talk to the Korean parents anyway. So, simply because I'm a guy who looks different and can't call mom, they register that as "screw it, I'm going to do what I want and completely ignore the lesson, because it's of no consequence to me. And if the books don't get filled out, my mom will blame the teacher, not me."
1 on 1, these kids [the bad ones] are totally different - shy, submissive, intimidated. But in a group, they turn into these wicked little monsters. Most people's complains about hagwons are because of the shady directors, but my #1 problem this whole year has been the kids. I'm leaving Korea at the end of this month, and I can't wait. If Korea was a person, I'd tell him, "Your country is alright, but I can't stand your children!" |
Ha. They're already burnt out by the time they get there, because they've been studying all night and got no sleep. |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Lots of self-aggrandizing going on here, but I don't think you guys are getting what I'm saying. First, it sounds like most of you are public school teachers. I'd be intersted to see if you'd say the same things if you didn't have these tools to rely on: keeping kids late, having a CT to translate complicated lists and rules, having students whose grades are on the line, etc.
Some kids are just rotten. Period. If you never see it, consider yourself lucky. But don't pretend that you're a superior teacher just because you don't face hardships. You're in a better school, that's it. You're not special. Anyway, most of my classes are either well behaved or managable. But there are 3 or 4 that completely exploit the fact that there are no incentives for them to cooperate at all. There's no "charming" a kid who, his own classmates say, is out to get you. There's no "engaging" a kid who won't even lift his pencil. There's no disciplining a kid who's happy to leave the room just to smirk at you the whole time. If you could see the place I work and knew the often ridiculous expectations, I'm certain you wouldn't be chalking this all up to bad classroom management.
Sidenote: Steelrails, do you stand for anything? Or do you only post things to tell others why you think they're wrong? |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
Lots of self-aggrandizing going on here, but I don't think you guys are getting what I'm saying. First, it sounds like most of you are public school teachers. I'd be intersted to see if you'd say the same things if you didn't have these tools to rely on: keeping kids late, having a CT to translate complicated lists and rules, having students whose grades are on the line, etc.
Some kids are just rotten. Period. If you never see it, consider yourself lucky. But don't pretend that you're a superior teacher just because you don't face hardships. You're in a better school, that's it. You're not special. Anyway, most of my classes are either well behaved or managable. But there are 3 or 4 that completely exploit the fact that there are no incentives for them to cooperate at all. There's no "charming" a kid who, his own classmates say, is out to get you. There's no "engaging" a kid who won't even lift his pencil. There's no disciplining a kid who's happy to leave the room just to smirk at you the whole time. If you could see the place I work and knew the often ridiculous expectations, I'm certain you wouldn't be chalking this all up to bad classroom management.
Sidenote: Steelrails, do you stand for anything? Or do you only post things to tell others why you think they're wrong? |
So basically you weren't looking for any particular advice, you were just hoping for a nice little echo-chamber of agreement to make yourself feel better? Or is there another reason you want to insult all those who actually gave practical advice? |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
Lots of self-aggrandizing going on here, but I don't think you guys are getting what I'm saying. First, it sounds like most of you are public school teachers. I'd be intersted to see if you'd say the same things if you didn't have these tools to rely on: keeping kids late, having a CT to translate complicated lists and rules, having students whose grades are on the line, etc.
Some kids are just rotten. Period. If you never see it, consider yourself lucky. But don't pretend that you're a superior teacher just because you don't face hardships. You're in a better school, that's it. You're not special. Anyway, most of my classes are either well behaved or managable. But there are 3 or 4 that completely exploit the fact that there are no incentives for them to cooperate at all. There's no "charming" a kid who, his own classmates say, is out to get you. There's no "engaging" a kid who won't even lift his pencil. There's no disciplining a kid who's happy to leave the room just to smirk at you the whole time. If you could see the place I work and knew the often ridiculous expectations, I'm certain you wouldn't be chalking this all up to bad classroom management. |
I feel for you. Have you ever taught in any other countries? I don't ask that to talk down to you or belittle you, it's just that i've taught in two other countries as well as back home and the same devil kids exist in every place i've worked. I also had the pleasure of teaching at a kind of international hagwon style place back home where I taught kids from about 20 different countries. A-hole kids cross race and ethnicity.
Like someone said before certain kids know our weakened positions here and they pounce. Once one or two choose to be little pricks it doesnt take long for others to join in and before you know it you have lost all of them. It's really, really hard to get them back.
Those kinds of classes can be so draining emotionally, mentally and physically. I can still remember coming home from work and just collapsing on the sofa and just sitting in a daze for half an hour so as to return to equilibrium. God I hated that job.
It really isn't racism. Though it can feel that way sometimes.
You've only got a month left! Hang in there. |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| So basically you weren't looking for any particular advice, you were just hoping for a nice little echo-chamber of agreement to make yourself feel better? Or is there another reason you want to insult all those who actually gave practical advice? |
I wasn't looking for an echo-chamber. Folks on here tend to a disagreeable bunch, so if I wanted that, I would have said something like, "Isn't it great how Korean students are so well rounded and culturally sensitive?" Cebeza's response is a good example of the kind of response I was looking for... a modest account of his difficult experiences and what he's learned from it. Saying things like I have a "defeatist attitude" and I don't know about classroom management isn't even advice. And a lot of the advice given I can't even use, like making a lesson about the rules in class. Everyday's lesson is prescribed where I work.
Ultimately, the problem boils down to about 6 students. I suppose as a public school teacher, if you have a student that doesn't care in a class of 30-40 kids, you can only be expected to do so much. Every class, I'm expected to check homework and make sure every single student finishes ~3 pages per day and 1 essay per week, and if they don't finish it then it's my fault. So we're not even talking about the same job. But again, I'm out in a few short weeks, so none of this will matter anyway!!  |
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fezmond
Joined: 27 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:26 am Post subject: |
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I stick with kindergarten. Much easier to control, much easier to entertain and the kids aren't screwed already from years in the system (plus it pays better).
As for elementary kids, there are always good or bad kids in each class. I don't think it's racism but probably has a lot to do with how parents raised them and the nature of the kid. If you're shit at teaching (and I probably am at the ele level) and don't care then the kids will shit all over you. My heart isn't into ele or middle school kids at all and they sense it.
My best friend's wife told us that she was taught from very young that Korea is #1. Koreans are the smartest. Koreans are the best at _______. Thankfully she saw through the crap but mentioned that for many, it's hard to understand that a foreign language could be very useful to some.
Why not get the problem child to give the number of his mother to you in front of the class? Don't have to call it but at least show that the co-teacher has it and threaten that she's gonna call.
Most places have no disciplinary procedures with the kids because their parents are customers and you'll be the scapegoat. As someone earlier said, army mentality can work if you punish the whole group. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| fezmond wrote: |
My best friend's wife told us that she was taught from very young that Korea is #1. Koreans are the smartest. Koreans are the best at _______. |
Thats the same with virtually every nation on earth.
Australians are raised to think they're the best at sport. Americans are raised to think they're the superior masters of the universe. Kiwis are raised to think they're the toughest. English are raised to think they're the rightful superior former rulers of the planet. And so on.
You're never going to find a country where they teach their kids reality. "You're OK but you have flaws and the Italians make better pizza". Not going to happen.
Thats why I hate parochialism and nationalism.
I wish that every human on the planet was forced to live in at least one foreign culture at some point in their lives. Something like, a global teenage exchange program. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
| And a lot of the advice given I can't even use, like making a lesson about the rules in class. Everyday's lesson is prescribed where I work. |
But they didn't know that; they were just trying to give you ideas to make your time better. Which is what this forum should be for.
(That's not to say I was implying everyone's response in this thread was helpful, it certainly wasn't, and you have every right to give them a serve right back. But you seemed to be blasting everyone.....maybe I was mistaken)
Anyway, I taught young kids for a year, hated every minute of it, and got out never to return to that age group. Best decision I ever made; I don't have the skill set for it. Which is why I merely said that you need a plan without actually offering one, because I sucked at it. I was kind of hoping someone else who is actually good at teaching kids would chime in. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Sorry OP but this is a lot more about your inability to impose clear guidelines and to manage your class (ie you lack authority in the face of those kids) than about racism.
Classroom management is one of the more daunting challenges a teacher faces, especially when dealing with young learners. |
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Teechuh
Joined: 15 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Just out of interest OP how long have you been teaching at this particular academy? Eighteen months ago I was having very similar problems and yes it would drive me insane how well behaved they were with the Korean teachers when they were uncontrollable little monsters in my class. Somewhere along the line though my relationship with the students improved and now, in 95% of cases, I just have to say their name or give them a look and they'll stop what they're doing.
A new Korean teacher started at my hagwon a few months ago and I see her going through everything I went through. Yesterday I had to get something from her classroom and went in to find one of the students had picked up a chair and was swinging it round his head. She was telling him to stop but he wasn't taking any notice. As soon as he saw me however he put it down, made his apologies and did a little sorry bow in my direction. There's been quite a few instances like that and I honestly think they act out with her because she's the new teacher and they're testing how far they can push her. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
| First, it sounds like most of you are public school teachers. I'd be intersted to see if you'd say the same things if you didn't have these tools to rely on: keeping kids late, having a CT to translate complicated lists and rules, having students whose grades are on the line, etc. |
I'm a hagwon instructor. I have no CT. Most of my students don't care about their grades.
| Threequalseven wrote: |
| Some kids are just rotten. Period. If you never see it, consider yourself lucky. But don't pretend that you're a superior teacher just because you don't face hardships. You're in a better school, that's it. You're not special. |
I'm at my third hagwon. I replaced a teacher who got fired. The classes were ten times crazier than at my first two hagwons and it took weeks to get things under control. I don't consider myself to be a great teacher, but at the same time I'm not going to let some kids run over me and then blame it on them.
| Threequalseven wrote: |
| There's no disciplining a kid who's happy to leave the room just to smirk at you the whole time. |
This is exactly what I mean. You think your situation is unique, but we've all had that kid who smirked at us from the hallway. The difference is some of us brought that kid back into the classroom and scolded him to tears. Then we sent him to his seat so he had to sob in front of his classmates instead of the privacy of the hallway. |
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