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oatmeal
Joined: 26 Nov 2013
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 Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:11 pm Post subject: Do those connecting foam floor mats really work for this |
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Hey everyone,
I have a couple questions about the all too common issue in korean one rooms, "noise".
In my one-room, we have only 3 units. We're all the on the same floor. There's a business below us and that's it. I'm living in the room at the front. Then there's another room in the middle, and recently a new family with a 3 yr old kid moved in to the back unit.
The problem is that this 3 yr old kid constantly runs around and I can hear the heavy thumping sounds echoing through the concrete floor to my unit where I am quietly trying to have peace after a long day at school.
The good thing is they speak english well since they are from the Philippines and communication is not a problem. We've already met each other, spoken couple of times and we're really friendly with each other.
It's hard to discipline and expect a 3 yr old kid to understand the situation I guess. I mean, he's doing what a 3 yr kid does, run and play. But this situation CANNOT continue like this else I'll actually lose my mind and escalate this matter into something more serious which I do not want.
So the first attempt was to just politely talk to them and ask them to keep their kid from running and banging the floor (they have another son, but he's about 13 and I don't think he's making the noise since the thumping sounds like small rapids steps...occasionally there are single loud thumps and bangs). The mother was considerate and knew that I am teacher and didn't want me to be stressed out either so she did look like she would try. For the next few days, while it improved SLIGHTLY , the running and loud banging was still going on.
So my 2nd attempt was to suggest to them laying down FLOOR MATS. I brought a couple samples that I had been using to show them. They listened to me and thought it could be a good idea. But of course, who really knows if they agreed or not (maybe just being polite). I told them that even when I try to slam my heel into these foam mats, I can't hear a thumping echo in the ground, so I'm 90% sure it will remove and takeaway the thumping sounds of their 3 yr boy when he runs around.
Can anyone with kids and/or with similar floor mats confirm that it does indeed work at absorbing the impact noise of heels slamming in the ground? Does it really make things a lot quieter like I believe? Or am I asking them to spend money on foam mats for no reason if it doesn't work at all?
Anyways, I told them that if they felt a little inconvenienced financially for having to spend 50,000 won or so to buy enough floor mats to cover the ground in the unit, I told them, I'd be willing to pay for HALF of it to pitch in and show them I am not just being selfish but I really want us to resolve this together. In other words, I am not going to ask them to do something I wouldn't subject myself to in the first place.
They kinda smiled and chuckled at me when I offered to help them buy some (maybe they assumed I assumed they were poor, or maybe they just genuinely thought it was sweet of me to offer financial support in this investment). They told me they'd go on the weekend to buy some of the mats, but I really don't know if they will. It sounded like they just said it in a way that was to be "polite" but not really mean it. We also exchanged numbers because I asked them for their number. I suggested that I could simply text them on their phone if and whenever I hear continuous loud thumping that goes on for an hour straight or longer to just kindly let them know. I thought it'd be better than me always walking over KNOCKING on the door which seems more intrusive and irritating.
So I'm going to wait this weekend to see if they really did go and buy floor mats like I showed them, and see if the noise goes down or away. If they didn't go and buy any floor mats, then I'll ask them to do so again. But at the same time, I'll start to feel upset that they sort of "lied" to me. I asked them in the most polite and respectful way possible, even offering my hand to pay for some of the mats....so at this point, I'm not expecting non-compliance but FULL COMPLIANCE.
I've also discussed this with the landlord who was in full agreement with me (I asked him beforehand so it was kind of the greenlight for me to go ahead and approach the family to make this proposal). But here's my next question. The landlord told me that when they first came to sign the contract, they were told it was only going to be the 2 of them (husband and wife). But then when they moved in, they had 2 kids with them. So the landlord told me he was surprised by that and if he had known they had a 3 yr old kid, he would probably have turned them away knowing it was going to be a noisy family. As a LAST RESORT, if the family is NON-COMPLIANT, and we get into some heated arguments because I won't drop this until they get their floors covered in mats, I was thinking of asking the landlord then to TERMINATE the contract as a breach of agreement when they lied about how many people were going to move in to that room. Is this legitimate or would the family have a right to appeal this action if they were to get kicked out?
I figured the landlord could pretty much do whatever the heck he wants even if it breaks the contract....but maybe not? Maybe he needs a justifiable reason to break the contract?
Any ideas and feedback would be helpful thanks. |
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Lucas
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Why not just buy the kid some cushion shoes?
With flashing lights if possible - then he'll wear them all the time!  |
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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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If the landlord terminated the contract, he would end up paying back the realtor fees.
To be honest, you have to expect these situations when renting. You can't expect someone to cover their entire floor with rubber mats because the crappy building you're living in has no soundproofing. |
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duhweecher
Joined: 06 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:37 am Post subject: |
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You can't expect the family to do the mats. First, heat comes first and the mats block the ondorl heating. Second, they're atrocious not to mention a general obstacle that adults don't want to step on.
Perhaps Lucas's idea of buying some shoes for the kid would be an option.
To be honest though it seems to be a problem that's mostly on your side so perhaps you should probe what you can do instead of what they could do. There are likely hundreds of things you could do...
Music, meditation, invest in GOOD custom-fitted earplugs, negotiate a resettlement with your school, switch housing and negotiate pricing with a friend who wouldn't mind trading his or her housing problem with yours, figure out when the kid is most active and coordinate your schedule so you're not at home, agree to take the kid jogging and deal with being more tired but at a quiet home, agree to tutor the 13 year old on weekends and brainwash him to become the terminator with his little brother on the weekdays (kids seldom run while crying), invest in some sleeping pills or anxiety medications, make an agreement with the family to text message when the noise becomes too loud (as you've already done, but again I think it's best to see this as your problem), create a more pleasant ambiance in your home that will put you at ease regardless of the noise, exercise in the morning so you're both calmer and too tired to care by the time you get home---the endorphines will go a long way too, get used to it (adjustment is hard but it will happen over time), do some catharsis by complaining your heart out about the problem to a friend until the adjustment kicks in and you get sick of repeating the same problem, find another pet peeve about the place that makes the noise just a minor problem putting your mind at ease...the ideas could really go on forever.
In the end, unless they're causing a neighborhood disturbance it's really just your problem. Getting aggressive will likely only make them chuckle more. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Yes they work. You don't need to coat the whole floor. Just the main play area (Which should solve the heating issues). |
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oatmeal
Joined: 26 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| duhweecher wrote: |
You can't expect the family to do the mats. First, heat comes first and the mats block the ondorl heating. Second, they're atrocious not to mention a general obstacle that adults don't want to step on.
To be honest though it seems to be a problem that's mostly on your side so perhaps you should probe what you can do instead of what they could do. There are likely hundreds of things you could do...
Music, meditation, invest in GOOD custom-fitted earplugs, negotiate a resettlement with your school, switch housing and negotiate pricing with a friend who wouldn't mind trading his or her housing problem with yours, figure out when the kid is most active and coordinate your schedule so you're not at home, agree to take the kid jogging and deal with being more tired but at a quiet home, agree to tutor the 13 year old on weekends and brainwash him to become the terminator with his little brother on the weekdays (kids seldom run while crying), invest in some sleeping pills or anxiety medications, make an agreement with the family to text message when the noise becomes too loud (as you've already done, but again I think it's best to see this as your problem), create a more pleasant ambiance in your home that will put you at ease regardless of the noise, exercise in the morning so you're both calmer and too tired to care by the time you get home---the endorphines will go a long way too, get used to it (adjustment is hard but it will happen over time), do some catharsis by complaining your heart out about the problem to a friend until the adjustment kicks in and you get sick of repeating the same problem, find another pet peeve about the place that makes the noise just a minor problem putting your mind at ease...the ideas could really go on forever.
In the end, unless they're causing a neighborhood disturbance it's really just your problem. Getting aggressive will likely only make them chuckle more. |
Thanks for those suggestions but i completely disagree with you the problem is on my side. Look at that whole paragraph of endless ideas you just wrote. You're telling me that I have to do all of those things or try to, and that's not inconveniencing my life or health? It would simply be better if they just laid down floor mats. PROBLEM SOLVED.
Now in all fairness, none of you here know me and what I've gone through the years I've been here. I'm certainly not an inexperienced person about this issue. I've moved 4 times in the last 3 years trying to spare my neighbors any grief and I took it upon myself to EAT the costs of having to move so many times (hiring movers and trucks costs $$$$). I've also done the EAR PLUGS route for 2 years. I wore ear plugs throughout the night in my past buildings where the noise was WORSE. I left on my kitchen fan all day to try and block out thumping noises via white noise. I've had to go out for long walks or just go out for the sake of getting out of the room when it's thumping a lot. I've done everything I could possibly do to be a good neighbor and i've eaten the costs of buying stuff (even bought floor mats myself to try and cover up my walls and floors to absorb more sound...but i learned that base sounds cannot be stopped, only aerial sounds like tv/talking/radio etc...base sounds are from physical impact and that travels through the walls and concrete floors to everywhere in the building). I stopped living in those one rooms to avoid as many neighbors as possible, HENCE the reason I moved to my place here with only 3 units and I'm in one of them. I only have one neighbor directly adjacent to me, but I guess since I can hear the 3rd room, they are my adjacent neighbor too.
The only other thing I could do is try and find a HOUSE on my own which is unlikely in korea as one-rooms usually are not a single detached house.
This current place I'm at was good for the first 1.5 years that I've been here. It's been fine since. But ever since that new family came in just a couple weeks ago, the problems have started all over again. So I don't think telling me to move out is fair as I've been here for 2 contracts and have a good relationship with the landlord as he understands and agrees with me on the noise issues. That's why I suggested the idea as a last resort to have them kicked out since they've only been here 2 weeks, and sort of lied about the "how many people are moving in" part. The landlord says they never mentioned 2 kids. Isn't that grounds enough to justify asking them to leave and find a new one room? We just had 4 brand new multi-storey one rooms built behind our building....why wouldn't they move there? It's newer, cleaner, and our building is older. Maybe because they thought since there are only 3 units here, they could get away with the noise. And asking me to move out to one of those new one rooms is not an option has I'm trying to STAY AWAY from the multi-storey one rooms where I'll have dozens of neighbors making noise. That's why I came here in the first place cuz there were only 3 units and I'd be on the far end so essentially I'd only have one neighbor or so I thought.
The cushiony shoes is certainly not a bad idea either. But I would actually think that asking them to put these indoor shoes on a kid is MORE inconvenient than simply laying down floor mats. Kids when uncomfortable will want to take off those shoes and will cry and complain about it. So most likely, the kid won't even wear the shoes. The floor mats are soft and still firm enough for it to be a non-issue of comfort. I use them myself in areas around my room and kitchen and god's honest truth, I've never tripped, or stumbled on any of them. They are part of the ground like it was the wallpaper. Now I can understand the issue about the ondol heating system....but I don't think that the floor mats will actually block the heat. Heat doesn't work that way. If that were true, then the wallpaper on the ground would be blocking the heat. Heat would travel through the floor mats also so I don't think that's an issue.
I also don't think there are any REALTOR FEES if the landlord kicked out the family. Nobody was paid to help find these one rooms. It was self-advertised on the window outside the business. Ppl just see the paper sign and come in and ask about the room. So no realtor fees.
Lastly, my one room is not tied to my school or school contract. I broke out of that long time ago deciding to just receive the housing allowance and FIND MY OWN PLACE under my own name. I moved out of the multi-storey one room they first provided for me due to the noise, and moved into another multi-storey one room and there I moved twice (different floors thinking the top floor would have been better but it turned out it wasn't cuz the sound from the 1st floor walking traveled up also). That's when I moved to this place with only 3 units. I moved in the middle unit first as it was the only one available at the time. Then when the front tenant moved out 6 months later, I decided to move up to the front unit thereby decreasing the amount of neighbors I would have from 2 to 1. Believe me, I've done MORE than my fair share to be courteous and polite by buying things and changing my life around for the sake of other people's noisiness.
I'm going to check up on them after this weekend is done and see if they got the floor mats. If they haven't, I'm escalating this to the next level. It's not going to be an option for them. One way or another, I'm going to get floor mats down on that ground, but right now, I've been super polite and considerate talking to them, exchanging ideas, being all smiles, and putting up with the running noise everyday when i get home from school for the past 2 weeks (including weekends). I don't think anyone can say I've been unreasonable. I even offered to pay for some floor mats myself. They should know that it's their responsibility to also be considerate of their neighbors knowing that they have a kid who is running around all the time. Lay down some mats, or make a designated playroom for him, or something. They can't expect to simply say, "well we're a family with a little kid, there's nothing we can do."
All was fine before they moved in....so if it doesn't get resolved, then why shouldn't it be them who gets the boot? They've only been here 2 weeks and could easily find another place. If they don't want to go, then they should comply and be as considerate as possible to keep this place a quiet building like it was before. Otherwise, pack up and find another place to make loud noises in. I saw the inside of their room and they don't even have any furniture. All they had was a pile of clothes laid out on the ground in a stack shaped like a mountain. I asked if they had a bed and they said they only use the ground. So no wonder, with no furniture, the kid has a wonderland of his own to run around in all that space! Actually come to think of it, I remember when they moved in, it literally only took 1 hour....they had almost nothing large to move other than boxes/bags of clothes. So it wouldn't be hard for them to move out. I've been here almost 2 years and have my room packed with furniture, desks, bed, computers, etc....
ah, i forgot to add. When I first moved into the middle unit, even that time there were 3 men living in that back unit and I never heard their thumping steps. Then when I moved up to the front unit, a young brother and sister moved in that back unit and even still I could never ever hear any loud thumping or walking. But all of a sudden when this family moved in, it's as loud as if they were right beside me? That tells me this isn't normal and there is room for improvement. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| The child is 3 years old. Kids that age run and play. You are not going to get much sympathy by bitching about it. You'll just make yourself look like a bully. It's a 3 year old child. Get used to it. If it bothers you that much invest in ear plugs or move. |
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duhweecher
Joined: 06 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| oatmeal wrote: |
| duhweecher wrote: |
You can't expect the family to do the mats. First, heat comes first and the mats block the ondorl heating. Second, they're atrocious not to mention a general obstacle that adults don't want to step on.
To be honest though it seems to be a problem that's mostly on your side so perhaps you should probe what you can do instead of what they could do. There are likely hundreds of things you could do...
Music, meditation, invest in GOOD custom-fitted earplugs, negotiate a resettlement with your school, switch housing and negotiate pricing with a friend who wouldn't mind trading his or her housing problem with yours, figure out when the kid is most active and coordinate your schedule so you're not at home, agree to take the kid jogging and deal with being more tired but at a quiet home, agree to tutor the 13 year old on weekends and brainwash him to become the terminator with his little brother on the weekdays (kids seldom run while crying), invest in some sleeping pills or anxiety medications, make an agreement with the family to text message when the noise becomes too loud (as you've already done, but again I think it's best to see this as your problem), create a more pleasant ambiance in your home that will put you at ease regardless of the noise, exercise in the morning so you're both calmer and too tired to care by the time you get home---the endorphines will go a long way too, get used to it (adjustment is hard but it will happen over time), do some catharsis by complaining your heart out about the problem to a friend until the adjustment kicks in and you get sick of repeating the same problem, find another pet peeve about the place that makes the noise just a minor problem putting your mind at ease...the ideas could really go on forever.
In the end, unless they're causing a neighborhood disturbance it's really just your problem. Getting aggressive will likely only make them chuckle more. |
Thanks for those suggestions but i completely disagree with you the problem is on my side. Look at that whole paragraph of endless ideas you just wrote. You're telling me that I have to do all of those things or try to, and that's not inconveniencing my life or health? It would simply be better if they just laid down floor mats. PROBLEM SOLVED.
Now in all fairness, none of you here know me and what I've gone through the years I've been here. I'm certainly not an inexperienced person about this issue. I've moved 4 times in the last 3 years trying to spare my neighbors any grief and I took it upon myself to EAT the costs of having to move so many times (hiring movers and trucks costs $$$$). I've also done the EAR PLUGS route for 2 years. I wore ear plugs throughout the night in my past buildings where the noise was WORSE. I left on my kitchen fan all day to try and block out thumping noises via white noise. I've had to go out for long walks or just go out for the sake of getting out of the room when it's thumping a lot. I've done everything I could possibly do to be a good neighbor and i've eaten the costs of buying stuff (even bought floor mats myself to try and cover up my walls and floors to absorb more sound...but i learned that base sounds cannot be stopped, only aerial sounds like tv/talking/radio etc...base sounds are from physical impact and that travels through the walls and concrete floors to everywhere in the building). I stopped living in those one rooms to avoid as many neighbors as possible, HENCE the reason I moved to my place here with only 3 units and I'm in one of them. I only have one neighbor directly adjacent to me, but I guess since I can hear the 3rd room, they are my adjacent neighbor too.
The only other thing I could do is try and find a HOUSE on my own which is unlikely in korea as one-rooms usually are not a single detached house.
This current place I'm at was good for the first 1.5 years that I've been here. It's been fine since. But ever since that new family came in just a couple weeks ago, the problems have started all over again. So I don't think telling me to move out is fair as I've been here for 2 contracts and have a good relationship with the landlord as he understands and agrees with me on the noise issues. That's why I suggested the idea as a last resort to have them kicked out since they've only been here 2 weeks, and sort of lied about the "how many people are moving in" part. The landlord says they never mentioned 2 kids. Isn't that grounds enough to justify asking them to leave and find a new one room? We just had 4 brand new multi-storey one rooms built behind our building....why wouldn't they move there? It's newer, cleaner, and our building is older. Maybe because they thought since there are only 3 units here, they could get away with the noise. And asking me to move out to one of those new one rooms is not an option has I'm trying to STAY AWAY from the multi-storey one rooms where I'll have dozens of neighbors making noise. That's why I came here in the first place cuz there were only 3 units and I'd be on the far end so essentially I'd only have one neighbor or so I thought.
The cushiony shoes is certainly not a bad idea either. But I would actually think that asking them to put these indoor shoes on a kid is MORE inconvenient than simply laying down floor mats. Kids when uncomfortable will want to take off those shoes and will cry and complain about it. So most likely, the kid won't even wear the shoes. The floor mats are soft and still firm enough for it to be a non-issue of comfort. I use them myself in areas around my room and kitchen and god's honest truth, I've never tripped, or stumbled on any of them. They are part of the ground like it was the wallpaper. Now I can understand the issue about the ondol heating system....but I don't think that the floor mats will actually block the heat. Heat doesn't work that way. If that were true, then the wallpaper on the ground would be blocking the heat. Heat would travel through the floor mats also so I don't think that's an issue.
I also don't think there are any REALTOR FEES if the landlord kicked out the family. Nobody was paid to help find these one rooms. It was self-advertised on the window outside the business. Ppl just see the paper sign and come in and ask about the room. So no realtor fees.
Lastly, my one room is not tied to my school or school contract. I broke out of that long time ago deciding to just receive the housing allowance and FIND MY OWN PLACE under my own name. I moved out of the multi-storey one room they first provided for me due to the noise, and moved into another multi-storey one room and there I moved twice (different floors thinking the top floor would have been better but it turned out it wasn't cuz the sound from the 1st floor walking traveled up also). That's when I moved to this place with only 3 units. I moved in the middle unit first as it was the only one available at the time. Then when the front tenant moved out 6 months later, I decided to move up to the front unit thereby decreasing the amount of neighbors I would have from 2 to 1. Believe me, I've done MORE than my fair share to be courteous and polite by buying things and changing my life around for the sake of other people's noisiness.
I'm going to check up on them after this weekend is done and see if they got the floor mats. If they haven't, I'm escalating this to the next level. It's not going to be an option for them. One way or another, I'm going to get floor mats down on that ground, but right now, I've been super polite and considerate talking to them, exchanging ideas, being all smiles, and putting up with the running noise everyday when i get home from school for the past 2 weeks (including weekends). I don't think anyone can say I've been unreasonable. I even offered to pay for some floor mats myself. They should know that it's their responsibility to also be considerate of their neighbors knowing that they have a kid who is running around all the time. Lay down some mats, or make a designated playroom for him, or something. They can't expect to simply say, "well we're a family with a little kid, there's nothing we can do."
All was fine before they moved in....so if it doesn't get resolved, then why shouldn't it be them who gets the boot? They've only been here 2 weeks and could easily find another place. If they don't want to go, then they should comply and be as considerate as possible to keep this place a quiet building like it was before. Otherwise, pack up and find another place to make loud noises in. I saw the inside of their room and they don't even have any furniture. All they had was a pile of clothes laid out on the ground in a stack shaped like a mountain. I asked if they had a bed and they said they only use the ground. So no wonder, with no furniture, the kid has a wonderland of his own to run around in all that space! Actually come to think of it, I remember when they moved in, it literally only took 1 hour....they had almost nothing large to move other than boxes/bags of clothes. So it wouldn't be hard for them to move out. I've been here almost 2 years and have my room packed with furniture, desks, bed, computers, etc....
ah, i forgot to add. When I first moved into the middle unit, even that time there were 3 men living in that back unit and I never heard their thumping steps. Then when I moved up to the front unit, a young brother and sister moved in that back unit and even still I could never ever hear any loud thumping or walking. But all of a sudden when this family moved in, it's as loud as if they were right beside me? That tells me this isn't normal and there is room for improvement. |
[img]
U should consider medication, seriously.[/img] |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| While I sympathize with the OP in regards to apt noise, I have to say - some people are just not suited for apartment living. |
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strawberrycats12
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:03 am Post subject: |
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You can download an app on your phone to measure how loud they are. If you have warned them enough times and there is no change.
You can file a report with these people.
http://www.noiseinfo.or.kr/about/stairsreqinfo.jsp?pageNo=1201
It is a request for a meeting with these loud people and some government official will come and warn them. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| strawberrycats12 wrote: |
You can download an app on your phone to measure how loud they are. If you have warned them enough times and there is no change.
You can file a report with these people.
http://www.noiseinfo.or.kr/about/stairsreqinfo.jsp?pageNo=1201
It is a request for a meeting with these loud people and some government official will come and warn them. |
You can't unless they're doing construction.
You need special microphones to pick up most apartment noise. The normal heavy thumping from feet, or bass music coming through will not register properly on normal microphones. It will sound like nothing despite being loud or annoying to the human ear. |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Korean apartments transmit sound better than most musical instruments.
Asking Koreans not to make noise is like asking a fish to stop swimming. Not realistic.
All you can really do is select apartments very carefully in the first place.
Longer term, consider another country because this issue is part and parcel of being in Korea and you will never entirely escape it.
I once dated a Korean who said she thought Europe was "boring" becauise it was "too quiet". I've seen Koreans fall fast asleep directly beside speakers on at full volume. ie at a noise level most nightclubs operate at.
Noise tolerance is psychological not biological. Its a learned cultural characteristic. |
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oatmeal
Joined: 26 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for everyone's feedback, whether you agreed with me or not. It's all fair as long as you have reasonable logic to support your view.
I just wanted to update you on my situation. Fortunately, it has worked out. Last week we were able to buy 2 2mx2m floor mats. I paid for one (21,000 won) and they paid for the other, so we split the cost.
They were willing and accepting to try my suggestion and we've laid down the floor mats. Since then, the running noise as been reduced by 80-85% which is very acceptable to me now. I only hear a few thumps here and there now and no longer the perpetual, continuous, repetitive thumping (that would go on for 2-3 hours straight) that I used to hear before.
So for anyone's future reference, yes, those floor mats DO work wonders. And it is possible to talk to your neighbors kindly and come to a resolution that works for everyone.
I'm glad they were open to trying and that this didn't escalate to the next level.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2ic30d5.jpg |
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