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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
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If we split it into four food groups (animal, plant, grains, dairy) it's clear the majority of homo sapiens do best on the animal/plant foods under which they evolved. There is huge variation within that spectrum however -- for example H/G tribes at the poles ate 99% meat, while some at the equator ate 70% plant. Within meat some subsisted on red meat, some on fish, within plant some on coconuts and some on tubers. Yet they all thrived. There are endless "Paleo diets". So yes, different things work within that wide spectrum of animal/plant foods for which we are adapted.
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First of all let's refute this implication that hunter-gatherer societies had better health than we did. Because that should still hold true today and it doesn't.
Let's look at a modern hunter-gatherer tribe
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| Closely examining one group of modern hunter–gatherers—the Hiwi—reveals how much variation exists within the diet of a single small foraging society and deflates the notion that hunter–gatherers have impeccable health. Such examination also makes obvious the immense gap between a genuine community of foragers and Paleo dieters living in modern cities, selectively shopping at farmers' markets and making sure the dressing on their house salad is gluten, sugar and dairy free. |
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Hill and Hurtado calculated that foods hunted and collected in the wild account for 95 percent of the Hiwi's total caloric intake; the remaining 5 percent comes from store-bought goods as well as from fruits and squash gathered from the Hiwi's small fields. They rely more on purchased goods during the peak of the dry season.
The Hiwi are not particularly healthy. Compared to the Ache, a hunter–gatherer tribe in Paraguay, the Hiwi are shorter, thinner, more lethargic and less well nourished. Hiwi men and women of all ages constantly complain of hunger. Many Hiwi are heavily infected with parasitic hookworms, which burrow into the small intestine and feed on blood. And only 50 percent of Hiwi children survive beyond the age of 15. |
Here's what anthropologist William Leonard of Northwestern University says
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| Too often modern health problems are portrayed as the result of eating 'bad' foods that are departures from the natural human diet…This is a fundamentally flawed approach to assessing human nutritional needs," Leonard wrote. "Our species was not designed to subsist on a single, optimal diet. What is remarkable about human beings is the extraordinary variety of what we eat. We have been able to thrive in almost every ecosystem on the Earth, consuming diets ranging from almost all animal foods among populations of the Arctic to primarily tubers and cereal grains among populations in the high Andes.” |
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-paleo-diet-half-baked-how-hunter-gatherer-really-eat
(bolding mine)
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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You'll have to send that in a different format...my firewalls are blocking it. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some more hunter-gatherer tribes
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.kr/2011/06/food-reward-dominant-factor-in-obesity.html
Of the five surveyed..three of them eat an almost exclusively or heavily based plant diet.
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| The !Kung diet is predominantly composed of plant foods |
...although they do eat meat.
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| They are generally very lean |
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| The food habits of most traditional Polynesian and certain Melanesian islands centered around starchy staple foods including taro, breadfruit, yams and sweet potatoes (today, additional starchy foods have been introduced, including cassava). Other important foods included coconut, fish and shellfish, taro leaves and a few fruits (today, they have many more fruits that were introduced). They had sugar cane, but it was chewed plain as a snack, in moderate quantity. Pork was a rare treat for most people. |
And again on average they were lean
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| In the New Guinea highland village of Tukisenta in the 1980s, people ate virtually nothing but sweet potatoes (90+ percent of calories), with small contributions from vegetables, pork and insects. They drank water and they did not have alcohol. They were characteristically lean, with female fat mass peaking during reproductive years and declining thereafter. Male fat mass remained low and constant throughout life. They were physically fit, showed no sign of malnutrition and had an extraordinarily good glucose tolerance. |
(bolding mine) |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The food habits of most traditional Polynesian and certain Melanesian islands centered around starchy staple foods including taro, breadfruit, yams and sweet potatoes (today, additional starchy foods have been introduced, including cassava). Other important foods included coconut, fish and shellfish, taro leaves and a few fruits (today, they have many more fruits that were introduced). They had sugar cane, but it was chewed plain as a snack, in moderate quantity. Pork was a rare treat for most people |
Most Paleo advocates identify wheat as the main enemy, and refined and processed carbohydrates. Sweet potatoes, and especially cocunuts, fish, and shellfish are highly recommended. |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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The Paleo diet is actually quite flexible:
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In the early days, following Loren Cordain’s book, The Paleo Diet: Lose Weight and Get Healthy by Eating the Food You Were Designed to Eat, the Paleo diet was considered to be moderate in carbohydrate and low in saturated fat (though monounsaturated fat wasn’t restricted).
Then, as low-carb diets rose in popularity and many low-carbers switched over to Paleo, it seemed that the lines between low-carb and Paleo began to blur. For these folks, the Paleo diet is high in fat – especially saturated fat – and low in carbohydrates, with a moderate amount of protein.
More recently, some authors/bloggers have advocated a diet based roughly on Paleo principles but that also may include dairy products and even certain grains like white rice and buckwheat, depending on individual tolerance. Still others have suggested that a high carb, lower fat diet – provided the carbs come from starchy vegetables and not grains – may be optimal.
So what is a Paleo diet? Is it low-carb? Low-fat? Does it include dairy? Grains? |
http://chriskresser.com/beyond-paleo-moving-from-a-paleo-diet-to-a-paleo-template |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Auslegung wrote: |
| I'm thinking that homo erectus ate when food was available… |
Right. And they probably also ate what was available. So it sounds pretty funny to say you’re on a “hunter gatherer diet” and then give a long list of foods you can’t/won’t eat. Or, “I’ll just hold out until what I want is available.”
If you want to be on a hunter gatherer diet, then maybe you should live off the grid somewhere and actually hunt and gather and see what you come up with. Squirrel meat and tree bark maybe?
If you’re coming to Korea, there’ll be plenty of rice and kimchi available. Happy hunting. |
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neilio
Joined: 12 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
| Have you ever read The China Study? Decades of research reveal a strong link between eating meat and disease. Those who eat a lot of animal products are much more likely to die of cancer, heart disease, and diabetes. Those who eat a plant based/vegan diet are the healthiest and live the longest. It's the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever done. Bill Clinton highly recommended the book and lost a lot of weight by following its advice. |
china study has been torn apart ten fold. |
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neilio
Joined: 12 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
Perhaps it's jus the nature of Daves that has made me feel like this discussion long ago lost its productivity in this thread (?)
I don't follow this diet, at least not o my knowledge, and feel my health is better than the average 40 year old's. I believe there's lots of genetic diversity in responses to various foods - what works for me, may not work for you. I've seen it when guys try to diet down for shows… there is not "one size fits all".
So let me ask either side here - do you believe that there's lots of room for individuality here? That what works for you, may not work for me? (or, at least not exactly the same way) |
Short answer yes and no.
Long answer:
First let's throw a couple things out there..
1) All foods have good and bad stuff in them. Let's use the term nutrient density. We could probably put everything on a spectrum like this:
SUPER NUTRITIOUS & NO ANTI NUTRIENTS <--------------------------------------> HIGH ANTI NUTRIENTS & LOW NUTRITION
Every food can be put on this. Now what valid reasons can one use to choose foods on the right side? 1) in jail 2) child (physically or mentally) 3) ignorant 4) brainwashed
3 and 4 are valid up to a certain point.
It's important that we go beyond marketing and govt recommended RDA's to make this decision. This would lead to another question: What's the optimal amount of nutrients for the human body, and does this differ from person to person. I'd say we have a pretty good idea of optimal, and it's based on looking at the diet's of healthy populations. There is definitely variability on what becomes optimal from person to person, and that's for each of us to tinker with once we establish a solid baseline of health.
When you talk about individual differences, and the 'what works for me' idea, i'd need to know a bit more information. I'd really dig into the question : Why do you make a certain food choice that you feel works? Is it convenience, immediate gratification, . | | |
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