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nuthatch
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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 Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| It took them that long to figure it out? They should've just asked us. |
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Deja
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| They don't read Outliers... |
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mayorhaggar
Joined: 01 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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He also said that as the plane approached, he was momentarily blinded by a light on the runway, possibly a reflection of the sun, but that he would not wear sunglasses because that was considered impolite among Koreans.
More impolite than crashing a plane?
I was wondering why Koreans so rarely wear sunglasses despite their hatred of sunlight. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| The pilot who didn't know how to properly land that aircraft also said that he needs to "study more." Yup he's Korean. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| They should never allow two Koreans in the same cockpit ever again. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
| They should never allow two Koreans in the same cockpit ever again. |
Yes, because every Korean flight results in crashes and non-Korean flights NEVER have probkens with seniority and cockpit communication issuss. 
As someone who has probably spent the most time out of all posters combined in the cockpit if an airplane, this is an issue for pilots EVERYWHERE. Seriously, take any two pilots from your local EAA chapter and put them in the cockpit together under similar circumstances and you will get similar problems.
If non-Western people eff up its because of their culture. If westerners eff up its because they are idiots individually. Can Koreans screw up without it being because of their culture.
That being said, there is some truth here. More so in putting the crew together than piot communication. American pilot culture likely wouldnt have put that clusterscrew of inexperience together. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| They should never allow two Koreans in the same cockpit ever again. |
Yes, because every Korean flight results in crashes and non-Korean flights NEVER have probkens with seniority and cockpit communication issuss.
As someone who has probably spent the most time out of all posters combined in the cockpit if an airplane, this is an issue for pilots EVERYWHERE. Seriously, take any two pilots from your local EAA chapter and put them in the cockpit together under similar circumstances and you will get similar problems.
If non-Western people eff up its because of their culture. If westerners eff up its because they are idiots individually. Can Koreans screw up without it being because of their culture.
That being said, there is some truth here. More so in putting the crew together than piot communication. American pilot culture likely wouldnt have put that clusterscrew of inexperience together. |
The Korean pilots basically admitted it themselves, saying, "Because I am Korean, and the other pilot was an older Korean, we couldn't avert the accident. Because we are Koreans, we crashed the plane." |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| I'm just waiting for it to appear in the Korea Times. Some of the headcase Korean nationalists that troll the comments sections are hilarious. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
The Korean pilots basically admitted it themselves, saying, "Because I am Korean, and the other pilot was an older Korean, we couldn't avert the accident. Because we are Koreans, we crashed the plane." |
Well, I think Korean could be stand-in for "senior pilot" in this case. Or any pilot. In all the time I've flown with my father and his flying buddies, I can't imagine any of them seizing controls from the other during final approach and pulling out or even speaking in an insistent commanding tone. The person in the pilot's chair IS the pilot and challenging them would be just as likely to produce a pigheaded response as it would a change in action.
That being said, I think the "Korean culture" screw-up was in the selection of personnel and no one willing to say "Hey, these guys should not be in the same cockpit together". Something I think American flying culture might have prevented. My father and his friends all flew Stinsons. There's no way we'd put a guy who was new to Stinsons with a flight instructor who just became an instructor on a flight into a difficult airport. It seemed no one was willing to call out that obvious error.
THAT being said, one of my fathers first flights with me and my mother in his restored Stinson was into a 1500 foot strip with 30knot crosswinds. Now, my father had been flying for 20 years, but that was in a Champion Tri-Champ. Now he was landing a taildragger. I remember, all my father's flying buddy's commented after the landing how nervous they were about the whole thing, but my father landed it perfectly like it was nothing. There's no way any of them would second guess him as he was on final. At that point the pilot is the pilot. I still remember my mother telling me 10 minutes away from the landing to "shut up". That day a couple of seasoned pilots "cut some corn" at the end of the runway. In the end, that was a really difficult situation, but you can't always predict the landing conditions, and once you're in the air...
Pilots are a close knit bunch and they are really reluctant to countermand another pilot, no matter what their nationality is. It's just one of those things. You can't have cockpit with 4 people telling each other what they are doing wrong on final. |
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chickenpie
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:43 am Post subject: |
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After the KAL Flight 801 crash in Guam in August 1997 that killed 228 mostly Korean passengers and crew when their 747-300 crashed into Nimitz Hill while on final approach to Guam International Airport as a result of a combination of pilot error, miscommunication, outdated maps and an outage of the Guam airport's ILS glideslope indicator, Korean Air upon the recommendation of outside consultants and training experts were forced to completely revamped their pilot training program and overhaul every aspect of a previously hierarchical Korean-style cockpit culture -- including a mandate that all cockpit conversations among Korean-speaking flight crew would now take place in the informal form of speech called 반말 rather than the honorific form, or 존댓말. Also mandated was a requirement that no flight officer on the flight deck could ever again willfully ignore another flight officer's recommendation or instruction simply because of rank or age, as had happened on that flight.
As a result, KAL successfully overcame those cultural factors that were identified in the aftermath of the crash as having hampered proactive and egalitarian interactions among flight crew and jeopardizing flight safety. Unsurprisingly, KAL hasn't had a crash of that magnitude ever since then. Asiana, on the other hand, didn't undergo the same change in cockpit training and culture that Korean Air had to do in the wake of the Guam tragedy. That said, Asiana would be well advised to use the lessons learned from this recent tragedy with Flt. 214 as well as KAL's and follow suit before it happens again. |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Captain Lee told investigators that any of the three pilots on the plane could have decided to break off the approach, but he said it was “very hard” for him to do so because he was a “low-level” person being supervised by an instructor pilot. |
To some, questioning authority is too hard to do.... even if your life depends on it. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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That's really too bad, but not an excuse because these Boeing airplanes have the same controls all over the world. He should have been trained correctly, and if he didn't understand in the classroom, he should have asked for help understanding the material. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
That's really too bad, but not an excuse because these Boeing airplanes have the same controls all over the world. He should have been trained correctly, and if he didn't understand in the classroom, he should have asked for help understanding the material. |
I've worked in warehouses with stricter rules concerning who can operate a fork-lift. I am surprised that someone who doesn't know how to operate a plane correctly is allowed to fly it. |
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