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John Stamos jr.
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Location: Namsan
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 Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| optik404 wrote: |
| I didn't know males drank frappucinos. |
You got the girliest avatar around here bro, what are you talking about lol. It sucks he suddenly died and he seemed like a nice guy and all, but come on. People only know that guy from being in one of the dumbest series of movies ever made. But he's one of your go to heroes or role models? Can't be calling out manliness with that little piece of teen beat art as your avatar. And don't even try the frappucino drinker comeback, I don't drink coffee. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| As for the excellent coffee shops you describe, yes they do exist. They're called Starbucks. |
What makes Starbucks so good compared to TomNToms or Hollys or Angel-In-Us or an independent store? Can you tell me what Angel-In-Us DOESN'T have wifi or spacious seating or electrical outlets or is kept clean?
| Quote: |
| I've even intimated I'm no coffee afficiando. |
Then maybe you don't know what you're talking about?
| cabeza wrote: |
Starbucks was the one that raised the level, at least here in Korea. It was pretty dire in terms of coffee before that.
Very quickly a lot of other chains popped up and followed the Starbucks template to the letter. As happened around the world.
So yes, now you have a bunch of coffee chains offering the same consistent product and environment in Korea, but it was Starbucks who kicked it all off. The market leader. |
I think the same could be said about Starbucks in the USA. I mean they really were the trigger for the wave of coffee shops that took off around the US like Caribou Coffee or the regrettably named Beaners Coffee (now Bigby). This of course happened pretty much concurrently with the whole Korean coffee house wave.
But yeah, you're right that we're sorta arguing the same thing. It's just he's not quite factoring in everything else that goes into Starbucks' success while imagining this great product differential that doesn't exist.
You could close down a Starbucks and put in a TomNToms in the exact same location and odds are you'd get the same kind of business. It comes down to real estate more than anything these days. |
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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| John Stamos jr. wrote: |
| optik404 wrote: |
| I didn't know males drank frappucinos. |
You got the girliest avatar around here bro, what are you talking about lol. It sucks he suddenly died and he seemed like a nice guy and all, but come on. People only know that guy from being in one of the dumbest series of movies ever made. But he's one of your go to heroes or role models? Can't be calling out manliness with that little piece of teen beat art as your avatar. And don't even try the frappucino drinker comeback, I don't drink coffee. |
My avatar encapsulates me.  RIP Brian Earl Spilner |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As for the excellent coffee shops you describe, yes they do exist. They're called Starbucks. |
What makes Starbucks so good compared to TomNToms or Hollys or Angel-In-Us or an independent store? Can you tell me what Angel-In-Us DOESN'T have wifi or spacious seating or electrical outlets or is kept clean?
| Quote: |
| I've even intimated I'm no coffee afficiando. |
Then maybe you don't know what you're talking about?
| cabeza wrote: |
Starbucks was the one that raised the level, at least here in Korea. It was pretty dire in terms of coffee before that.
Very quickly a lot of other chains popped up and followed the Starbucks template to the letter. As happened around the world.
So yes, now you have a bunch of coffee chains offering the same consistent product and environment in Korea, but it was Starbucks who kicked it all off. The market leader. |
I think the same could be said about Starbucks in the USA. I mean they really were the trigger for the wave of coffee shops that took off around the US like Caribou Coffee or the regrettably named Beaners Coffee (now Bigby). This of course happened pretty much concurrently with the whole Korean coffee house wave.
But yeah, you're right that we're sorta arguing the same thing. It's just he's not quite factoring in everything else that goes into Starbucks' success while imagining this great product differential that doesn't exist.
You could close down a Starbucks and put in a TomNToms in the exact same location and odds are you'd get the same kind of business. It comes down to real estate more than anything these days. |
Address your lies first, blind rabbit. Than I'll be glad to dismiss your latest basket of red herrings. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As for the excellent coffee shops you describe, yes they do exist. They're called Starbucks. |
What makes Starbucks so good compared to TomNToms or Hollys or Angel-In-Us or an independent store? Can you tell me what Angel-In-Us DOESN'T have wifi or spacious seating or electrical outlets or is kept clean?
| Quote: |
| I've even intimated I'm no coffee afficiando. |
Then maybe you don't know what you're talking about?
| cabeza wrote: |
Starbucks was the one that raised the level, at least here in Korea. It was pretty dire in terms of coffee before that.
Very quickly a lot of other chains popped up and followed the Starbucks template to the letter. As happened around the world.
So yes, now you have a bunch of coffee chains offering the same consistent product and environment in Korea, but it was Starbucks who kicked it all off. The market leader. |
I think the same could be said about Starbucks in the USA. I mean they really were the trigger for the wave of coffee shops that took off around the US like Caribou Coffee or the regrettably named Beaners Coffee (now Bigby). This of course happened pretty much concurrently with the whole Korean coffee house wave.
But yeah, you're right that we're sorta arguing the same thing. It's just he's not quite factoring in everything else that goes into Starbucks' success while imagining this great product differential that doesn't exist.
You could close down a Starbucks and put in a TomNToms in the exact same location and odds are you'd get the same kind of business. It comes down to real estate more than anything these days. |
Address your lies first, blind rabbit. Than I'll be glad to dismiss your latest basket of red herrings. |
So you don't think Starbucks' coffee is any good? That's what I assumed when you took exception to me calling it "acidic black sludge". You've been defending it pretty vigorously here. But if you think their coffee does suck, but nonetheless think they're the best coffee shop, then fine.
Anyways, now that that's out of the way. What makes Starbucks so better than Angel-In-Us or TomNToms specifically? Why is Starbucks deserving of your defense but not the other places? What is so underwhelming about them?
I'm basically saying that aside from brand name recognition, Starbucks doesn't offer much. I'm supposing that most people patronize the big chain coffee shops based on location more than anything else. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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I was living in Seattle when Starbucks had just opened. I still have an original coffee bean holder with the mermaid and split tail (oh! the shame). At the time, it really was good coffee.
After I moved to Florida I had the beans shipped and I still had the best coffee around.
But then Starbucks expanded and standardized and gave a prescriptive experience. By then though, they had created an idea of what a coffee shop experience should be. Others followed.
And what they followed was Starbucks' success. All Starbucks did was become successful. In the extreme.
Can't blame them for that can we Steelrails, since you often flog the 'market dictates' and money rules position. By that logic, their coffee is remarkably good since they do dominate the coffee shop world.
My question to all the hipsters arguing over their superior knowledge of what constitutes good coffee; is your argument pre-ironic or post-ironic? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As for the excellent coffee shops you describe, yes they do exist. They're called Starbucks. |
What makes Starbucks so good compared to TomNToms or Hollys or Angel-In-Us or an independent store? Can you tell me what Angel-In-Us DOESN'T have wifi or spacious seating or electrical outlets or is kept clean?
| Quote: |
| I've even intimated I'm no coffee afficiando. |
Then maybe you don't know what you're talking about?
| cabeza wrote: |
Starbucks was the one that raised the level, at least here in Korea. It was pretty dire in terms of coffee before that.
Very quickly a lot of other chains popped up and followed the Starbucks template to the letter. As happened around the world.
So yes, now you have a bunch of coffee chains offering the same consistent product and environment in Korea, but it was Starbucks who kicked it all off. The market leader. |
I think the same could be said about Starbucks in the USA. I mean they really were the trigger for the wave of coffee shops that took off around the US like Caribou Coffee or the regrettably named Beaners Coffee (now Bigby). This of course happened pretty much concurrently with the whole Korean coffee house wave.
But yeah, you're right that we're sorta arguing the same thing. It's just he's not quite factoring in everything else that goes into Starbucks' success while imagining this great product differential that doesn't exist.
You could close down a Starbucks and put in a TomNToms in the exact same location and odds are you'd get the same kind of business. It comes down to real estate more than anything these days. |
Address your lies first, blind rabbit. Than I'll be glad to dismiss your latest basket of red herrings. |
So you don't think Starbucks' coffee is any good? That's what I assumed when you took exception to me calling it "acidic black sludge". You've been defending it pretty vigorously here. But if you think their coffee does suck, but nonetheless think they're the best coffee shop, then fine.
Anyways, now that that's out of the way. What makes Starbucks so better than Angel-In-Us or TomNToms specifically? Why is Starbucks deserving of your defense but not the other places? What is so underwhelming about them?
I'm basically saying that aside from brand name recognition, Starbucks doesn't offer much. I'm supposing that most people patronize the big chain coffee shops based on location more than anything else. |
And what you're saying is wrong. You've already agreed to what I listed as Starbucks' strong points and the reasons why they are successful.
Starbucks is the original. And I don't think the coffee shops you keep mentioning are quite in their league regarding those aforementioned strong points. Certainly they had nothing that made me want to return while Starbucks does.
I never said their coffee sucked, blind rabbit. Quit putting words in my mouth. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And what you're saying is wrong. You've already agreed to what I listed as Starbucks' strong points and the reasons why they are successful. |
The average person going into a coffee shop would rather walk into the Holly's right next door than 500 meters to get Starbucks on their lunch break. Sure some people are Starbucks loyalists. Just as some are loyalists of the other brands.
| Quote: |
| And I don't think the coffee shops you keep mentioning are quite in their league regarding those aforementioned strong points. |
Why? I've been asking this repeatedly. Can you answer it beyond some vagueries?
| Quote: |
| Certainly they had nothing that made me want to return while Starbucks does. |
Which is?
You can find lots of seating, wi-fi, electric outlets, cleanliness, bright lighting, and so on that you mentioned in just about every coffee shop? And not all Starbucks are the same. Some are smaller. Some are bigger. What about it makes you come back?
| Quote: |
| I never said their coffee sucked, blind rabbit. Quit putting words in my mouth. |
I never said you said they sucked. I keep asking you what makes their coffee good. I've stated why I think their coffee sucks. Is Starbucks coffee good or bad or middling?
And knock off the rabbit nonsense. You've made your point. Stick to the De-Rails or OfftheRails or Steeler'sWheel or Steelheart or Steelhead or Stalledwheels or whatever and keep it all in good fun. No need to get insulting at that level. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And what you're saying is wrong. You've already agreed to what I listed as Starbucks' strong points and the reasons why they are successful. |
The average person going into a coffee shop would rather walk into the Holly's right next door than 500 meters to get Starbucks on their lunch break. Sure some people are Starbucks loyalists. Just as some are loyalists of the other brands.
| Quote: |
| And I don't think the coffee shops you keep mentioning are quite in their league regarding those aforementioned strong points. |
Why? I've been asking this repeatedly. Can you answer it beyond some vagueries?
| Quote: |
| Certainly they had nothing that made me want to return while Starbucks does. |
Which is?
You can find lots of seating, wi-fi, electric outlets, cleanliness, bright lighting, and so on that you mentioned in just about every coffee shop? And not all Starbucks are the same. Some are smaller. Some are bigger. What about it makes you come back?
| Quote: |
| I never said their coffee sucked, blind rabbit. Quit putting words in my mouth. |
I never said you said they sucked. I keep asking you what makes their coffee good. I've stated why I think their coffee sucks. Is Starbucks coffee good or bad or middling?
And knock off the rabbit nonsense. You've made your point. Stick to the De-Rails or OfftheRails or Steeler'sWheel or Steelheart or Steelhead or Stalledwheels or whatever and keep it all in good fun. No need to get insulting at that level. |
Yes you did. Go back and re-read your post.
I've made myself clear, blind rabbit. I'm not interested in following you round in circles. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Yes you did. Go back and re-read your post.
I've made myself clear, blind rabbit. I'm not interested in following you round in circles. |
| Quote: |
| So you don't think Starbucks' coffee is any good? That's what I assumed when you took exception to me calling it "acidic black sludge". You've been defending it pretty vigorously here. But if you think their coffee does suck, but nonetheless think they're the best coffee shop, then fine. |
Go back and reread my post.
Now, I'm not going to call you a liar. I am going to say you made an error, because I have the sense to be able to tell the difference between the two and not over-exaggerate things. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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I don't drink coffee but spend pretty much every Saturday daytime there (whilst I work from my laptop). I don't think the drinks at SB are anything special and tbh prefer some of the drinks at say Caffe Bene. But one thing Starbucks is much better at, is providing a very good atmosphere. The small details make a big difference.
1. The seats - in terms of ergonomics, they are much more comfortable to sit in for long periods (you can sleep on the sofas no problem... and they often have quite a few), then notice the table sizes... whilst they do have smaller round ones, they also have plenty of large square ones, so even with 2 people, you can both use laptops. They often have dedicated tables/kiosk areas specifically for laptops/people to study.
2. Space - again, this is down to ergonomics... the seating/tables are all well spaced out from each other. The last Angel-In-Us I went to, I had to navigate through a maze of tables, whilst having to disturb people to let me by. A pushchair in the aisle is also adding to obstruction, whereas in SB, I have seen plenty of families come in with kids and whilst dragging 6 chairs around a small table can be annoying, pushchairs/wheelchairs have rarely been an issue.
3. Music - instead of blasting the latest kpop from the radio (this happens in Bene & Angel), the music is usually chilled (Bob Marley, Morcheeba, Bonobo etc).
4. People - because of the perception Starbucks has... it's very rare you will meet someone who goes there just because of the coffee. Coffee shops are a cool place to network... especially during the Korean 5 month winter. I have met other creatives (Korean and foreign) during my 'work' session, I've made a few friends and has even led to job offers. In Angel/Homestead/Holly's/Twosome, it feels less sociable and is often over-run with couples during the weekend.
5. Employees - I speak enough Korean to get by in life here but I feel at SB they make an extra effort to make you feel comfortable, whereas in some of the other chains, I feel like they are just doing their job. Nothing wrong with that of course, but when I'm in SB I feel they are more friendly, and if there is some special offer or promotion, they'll explain it to me (usually in English).
Ps, these days I'm around Itaewon more often but the last 4-5yrs have been around Gangnam station or in Apgujeong/Cheongdam along Rodeo.
Pps, some very cool independent places in HBC, I don't go there much (too ESL wananbe hipsters), so can't recall the names. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:33 am Post subject: |
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Interesting read, but I agree with the writer's conclusions that workers' rights and the environment have to be protected. But if labor costs do increase by the estimated 15.6% some things might really change here.
Would agree with the concerns about electricity costs--businesses need to know what expenses they need to meet so the government shouldn't be monkeying around with the cost of electricity whenever it suits them. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Yes you did. Go back and re-read your post.
I've made myself clear, blind rabbit. I'm not interested in following you round in circles. |
| Quote: |
| So you don't think Starbucks' coffee is any good? That's what I assumed when you took exception to me calling it "acidic black sludge". You've been defending it pretty vigorously here. But if you think their coffee does suck, but nonetheless think they're the best coffee shop, then fine. |
Go back and reread my post.
Now, I'm not going to call you a liar. I am going to say you made an error, because I have the sense to be able to tell the difference between the two and not over-exaggerate things. |
I haven't made an error. Even with your half-baked hypothetical you're still assuming I think Starbucks coffee "sucks" and putting words in my mouth.
And I think you need to go back to your original post, where you make more wrong assumptions and use them to twist my words as well. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Ralph Winfield wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
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atwood wrote:
Starbucks has great service and clean, well-designed, fairly spacious storefronts, which were definitely upgrades on the formerly typical Korean coffee shops. |
Quite true about SB, quite true about the former K-coffee shops. quite untrue about today's K-coffee shops as those have clean, well-designed and pretty spacious storefronts and excellent service (Coffee Bean, Angels in us). The key for me is that their coffee (on our last few visits) is on par with SB.
So SB being pushed out now is far less an issue than it would have been 5 years ago in terms of access to good coffee. Well good coffee as far as large coffee shop chains produce. It is not actual good coffee, it is just the best you can get from those chains.... |
Are you an Asian-Canadian from the Guy-Concordia, N.D.G., or Chinatown area of Montreal?
Take care! |
No but its always nice to see base racism / light bigotry pop up on here. You do yourself credit there buddy. I had no idea being asian was somehow an accusation of some sort but you sure seem to think so or at least your post reads like it.
You dropped your pillow case with eye holes by the way.
As for Montreal, while I am not from there, we do visit that fine city quite often. |
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