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Ginormousaurus
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Location: 700 Ft. Pulpit
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 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
One of my friends had students at the local technical high school and this kid was learning about welding. Rather than bemoaning his place in society or his future, his view was this- He wanted to be the best welder in Korea and would work his tail off to do it. None of the angst over meaning and such. This is the life he is going to have and since it is his life, its worth doing the best job you can and to work as hard as you can for it. |
| Lucas wrote: |
| FWIW - some great money to be made in welding, esp if you mix it up with deep sea diving for example. |
| cabeza wrote: |
| My brother in law is a welder at the Hyundai Yongam ship yards. He pulls in easily 4 times that of a good esl salary. And then he gets ridiculous bonuses if they come in ahead of time. |
Financially speaking, welding can be a great career and demand is almost always high for skilled welders. We are not going to stop using metal any time soon.
Welders of cryogenic equipment at Chevron's massive Gorgon LNG export facility in Australia may be making as much as $454,000.00 USD per year! I wonder if a salary like that would be enough to change the minds of some of these status-obsessed mothers? Think of all the Spam sets you could buy with that income! |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Ginormousaurus wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
One of my friends had students at the local technical high school and this kid was learning about welding. Rather than bemoaning his place in society or his future, his view was this- He wanted to be the best welder in Korea and would work his tail off to do it. None of the angst over meaning and such. This is the life he is going to have and since it is his life, its worth doing the best job you can and to work as hard as you can for it. |
| Lucas wrote: |
| FWIW - some great money to be made in welding, esp if you mix it up with deep sea diving for example. |
| cabeza wrote: |
| My brother in law is a welder at the Hyundai Yongam ship yards. He pulls in easily 4 times that of a good esl salary. And then he gets ridiculous bonuses if they come in ahead of time. |
Financially speaking, welding can be a great career and demand is almost always high for skilled welders. We are not going to stop using metal any time soon.
Welders of cryogenic equipment at Chevron's massive Gorgon LNG export facility in Australia may be making as much as $454,000.00 USD per year! I wonder if a salary like that would be enough to change the minds of some of these status-obsessed mothers? Think of all the Spam sets you could buy with that income! |
Great money i welding, but it can do a real number on your eyes. Lots of welders have to retire early and move on to other careers rather than lose their eyesight. There's a reason the pay is so good. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| This is what happens when you teach to the test and why Obama should not be wanting to emulate Korea's education system. Bad enough Americans have to deal with the SAT and Harvard, Yale, elitism. But, at least it's nothing like Korea and you can still make money by and get a job by being smart and creative. Here, they weed that stuff out. It's why they have to hire foriegn engineers for many projects because the Korean ones lack creativity. Facts and truth don't matter. What does matter is not offending ajossi pride. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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While I'm not going to say that Korea couldn't stand to improve its creative education measures, I think its a bit much to say that creativity is entirely weeded out, at least these days. This is a predictable outcome as Korea increases in prosperity. Pretty much every nation sees creativity rise as it gains in prosperity.
As far as the U.S., I actually think they overemphasize creativity in the education system. The fact is that probably only 10% of the population is really creative and only half of them are probably any good at it. Is that really where the focus of education should be? How much better might education be for the vast majority of students if there was more of a focus on skills and training?
Really there needs to be better outlets for creative AND non-creative students. |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
As far as the U.S., I actually think they overemphasize creativity in the education system. The fact is that probably only 10% of the population is really creative and only half of them are probably any good at it. Is that really where the focus of education should be? How much better might education be for the vast majority of students if there was more of a focus on skills and training? |
I can't speak to the US, but what I got out of my education (in Canada, anyway) was critical thinking skills. It's not creative, but it's not rote learning, either.
More than creativity, I think that's what students need to learn. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
While I'm not going to say that Korea couldn't stand to improve its creative education measures, I think its a bit much to say that creativity is entirely weeded out, at least these days. This is a predictable outcome as Korea increases in prosperity. Pretty much every nation sees creativity rise as it gains in prosperity.
As far as the U.S., I actually think they overemphasize creativity in the education system. The fact is that probably only 10% of the population is really creative and only half of them are probably any good at it. Is that really where the focus of education should be? How much better might education be for the vast majority of students if there was more of a focus on skills and training?
Really there needs to be better outlets for creative AND non-creative students. |
How can a fact be probably? Either it's a fact or it isn't.
The fact is that once again you are falsely claiming your half-baked opinions as facts.
I think you're a prime example of what someone posted above is important--critical thinking skills. Your posts demonstrate an awful lack of critical thinking. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Its a turn of phrase. I'm sorry I don't have precise figures for creativity. I guess I should have used the phrase "In all likelihood". I stand corrected.
However I don't think that really undercuts my point- That the vast majority of students are not creative or possess the necessary skills to be very creative. Centering education around creativity might not be the best use of educational resources.
| Quote: |
| I think you're a prime example of what someone posted above is important--critical thinking skills. Your posts demonstrate an awful lack of critical thinking. |
Well, aside from the poor choice of phrase above, would you care to show where I've failed in critical thinking in this thread? Unlike say, a thread where you felt that Korean merchants were greedy because of price differences on things like appliances, and when confronted with the fact that LG had a factory in Mexico, refused to acknowledge that this might account for the price difference. Is that the kind of "critical thinking" you say I lack and should get from you?
| Quote: |
| but what I got out of my education (in Canada, anyway) was critical thinking skills. It's not creative, but it's not rote learning, either. |
I think there has to be a blend. If you lack a core of memorized information, you lack the tools to effectively evaluate statements. An excess of critical, without the skills or information to employ it, results in poor thinking. Think of all the bogus conspiracy claims and such that people fall for (while ironically calling other people "sheep") that are obviously due to their lack of expertise in the relevant field. I think this is seen in the dumbing down of America. In certain bodies of students this combination of critical without the base and creativity has led to a collection of students that amount to little more than BS artists.
That's no to say that Korea doesn't need more critical thinking, just that there is virtue in rote. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Its a turn of phrase. I'm sorry I don't have precise figures for creativity. I guess I should have used the phrase "In all likelihood". I stand corrected.
However I don't think that really undercuts my point- That the vast majority of students are not creative or possess the necessary skills to be very creative. Centering education around creativity might not be the best use of educational resources.
| Quote: |
| I think you're a prime example of what someone posted above is important--critical thinking skills. Your posts demonstrate an awful lack of critical thinking. |
Well, aside from the poor choice of phrase above, would you care to show where I've failed in critical thinking in this thread? Unlike say, a thread where you felt that Korean merchants were greedy because of price differences on things like appliances, and when confronted with the fact that LG had a factory in Mexico, refused to acknowledge that this might account for the price difference. Is that the kind of "critical thinking" you say I lack and should get from you?
| Quote: |
| but what I got out of my education (in Canada, anyway) was critical thinking skills. It's not creative, but it's not rote learning, either. |
I think there has to be a blend. If you lack a core of memorized information, you lack the tools to effectively evaluate statements. An excess of critical, without the skills or information to employ it, results in poor thinking. Think of all the bogus conspiracy claims and such that people fall for (while ironically calling other people "sheep") that are obviously due to their lack of expertise in the relevant field. I think this is seen in the dumbing down of America. In certain bodies of students this combination of critical without the base and creativity has led to a collection of students that amount to little more than BS artists.
That's no to say that Korea doesn't need more critical thinking, just that there is virtue in rote. |
And that's where you should have stopped. But you continue on with more unsubstantiated opinion that as usual misses the mark.
For example, your claim that a belief in conspiracy theories is due to "their lack of expertise in the relevant field." There's been plenty of research on conspiracy theorists:
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| “The best predictor of belief in a conspiracy theory is belief in other conspiracy theories,” says Viren Swami, a psychology professor who studies conspiracy belief at the University of Westminster in England. Psychologists say that’s because a conspiracy theory isn’t so much a response to a single event as it is an expression of an overarching worldview. |
Critical thinking would include realizing the necessity for some knowledge of the subject you are posting on. You lack, no, you sorely lack, critical thinking skills. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, psychological explanations go into conspiracy theories. So does lack of education. Sorry I didn't go into a comprehensive breakdown on conspiracy theorists and lack of education and prepare a study.
Do you think lack of education doesn't play a part in conspiracy theories?
Do you think most people are creative?
Those are my general points. Take issue with them if you so desire. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Yes, psychological explanations go into conspiracy theories. So does lack of education. Sorry I didn't go into a comprehensive breakdown on conspiracy theorists and lack of education and prepare a study.
Do you think lack of education doesn't play a part in conspiracy theories?
Do you think most people are creative?
Those are my general points. Take issue with them if you so desire. |
"Lack of education"--that's so general as to be meaningless.
As are your questions.
Try thinking before you post. Or are you trying to prove by example your statement regarding the dumbing down of America? Are you calling yourself as a witness? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Yes, psychological explanations go into conspiracy theories. So does lack of education. Sorry I didn't go into a comprehensive breakdown on conspiracy theorists and lack of education and prepare a study.
Do you think lack of education doesn't play a part in conspiracy theories?
Do you think most people are creative?
Those are my general points. Take issue with them if you so desire. |
"Lack of education"--that's so general as to be meaningless.
As are your questions.
Try thinking before you post. Or are you trying to prove by example your statement regarding the dumbing down of America? Are you calling yourself as a witness? |
So what do you have to offer to this discussion besides your personal agenda towards me? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Yes, psychological explanations go into conspiracy theories. So does lack of education. Sorry I didn't go into a comprehensive breakdown on conspiracy theorists and lack of education and prepare a study.
Do you think lack of education doesn't play a part in conspiracy theories?
Do you think most people are creative?
Those are my general points. Take issue with them if you so desire. |
"Lack of education"--that's so general as to be meaningless.
As are your questions.
Try thinking before you post. Or are you trying to prove by example your statement regarding the dumbing down of America? Are you calling yourself as a witness? |
So what do you have to offer to this discussion besides your personal agenda towards me? |
Nothing personal--just stopping ignorance dead in its rabbit tracks. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, Atwood, are you supporting welders or grinders, 'cause it seems you have an axe you want to work down to a nub with Steelrails.
He also happens to be right about creativity being overvalued. Necessities should come before luxuries, what folks need should come before what folks want, but in the US educational system, the priorities are screwed up -- much more so than in Korea. Don't worry though -- with the westernization of the Korean educational system, I'm sure it'll get just as screwed up within the next couple of decades. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
Wow, Atwood, are you supporting welders or grinders, 'cause it seems you have an axe you want to work down to a nub with Steelrails.
He also happens to be right about creativity being overvalued. Necessities should come before luxuries, what folks need should come before what folks want, but in the US educational system, the priorities are screwed up -- much more so than in Korea. Don't worry though -- with the westernization of the Korean educational system, I'm sure it'll get just as screwed up within the next couple of decades. |
More ignorance I see. You obviously misunderstand what creativity is. Why? Because obviously creativity can be, has been, is being and will be applied to providing necessities.
Check out Tom Ritchey's bike building efforts in regards to Rwandan coffee farmers and how his creativity is helping them earn a better living and provide their families with necessities.
I just came back from the post office. There, a lack of creativity to how to best serve their customers resulted in a long and unnecessary wait. Time is a necessity.
One more thing, posts which either state or imply that education should be more "practical," in other words more vocationally oriented, strike me as hypocritical since they are coming from people who mostly sit in offices and who have obviously done what they could to avoid the type of work carpenters, plumbers, welders, cooks, etc. do. Yet here they are telling others they should settle for less.
Even more hypocritical when you take into account that such posters aren't exactly world beaters in their chosen profession. Yet still they want to tell others how to live. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
I highly doubt a kid who's really capable of entering one of the SKY universities will be concerned for a measles few points. And for the parents of kids who 'missed' out on a SKY school, well, that's life and your kid probably wasn't as bright as you thought they were.
The students who enter SKY, will have more than made up for a few points in other sections of the test. Those SKY students are probably some of the brightest kids I've encountered and won't get tripped up be a few questions.
Stop getting carried away with all the English news articles that claim that Koreans are a failure if they aren't a grad of one of the SKY universities. Plenty of Koreans who live very successful lives that didn't attend a SKY school. Most of my students know they aren't destined for SKY, but many are more than qualified to study at any of the public National Universities in the country. Which, btw are also well regarded and can very much lead to a very 'successful' life. |
I could not disagree more. In fact, I would say the only students this really mattered too were the best and brightest that tried to reach their full potential by sacrificing their free time and social life to get into a SKY University. It is everything to some people, and sometimes that is a personal decision and it's good to encourage students to chase their dreams. It's not always a mom or dad pushing these kids. The kids with the nepotism and connections will get by with this, but the kids that only relied on their hard work and intelligence will be the ones that bite the dust. For a competitive Korean college student that has done everything possible (and never listened to people that said this couldn't be done) this is just a horrible thing to have to face.
And, this is going to hurt the reputation of the SKY Universities. The credibility of their entrance exams is in question, and they refused to fix it. That is something potential employers will catch and pay attention to. Korean employers will probably still play the game, but internationally if this type of behavior is allowed to continue the ability of SKY to stand above the rest of the colleges will diminish.
This is a teaching forum, and most of us are familiar with the lifestyle the more competitive Korean students lead. We are also probably aware of the disillusioned highschool students that see no point of even paying attention. As teachers if you respond nonchalantly to something like this you should probably consider another profession. Call me self righteous if you want, but given the hurdles I have seen highschool students go through to get into a SKY University allowing something like this to happen is just disgraceful. |
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