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Russia will enforce anti-gay law during Olympics
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject:

The word "clearly" is there to both illustrate that I am making an inference and to give my interlocutor an opportunity to challenge that inference. Of course, in this case such a challenge would require a disavowal of your previous snark, so it seems you've chosen to throw a smoke bomb instead. Anyway, it's fine for a thread's topic to wander. Sometimes even good.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:20 pm Post subject:

How could I disavow the dangers of peddling two daddies to kindergartners? This is a threat to the West!

Titus

Joined: 19 May 2012

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:18 pm Post subject:

Titus wrote:

Quote:

has anyone in the west seen the inside of a jail cell on charges of "hate speech?"

As was mentioned, Zundel has seen the inside of a few cells. David Irving too. Quite a few in Germany (including a lawyer for Irving - I think - who was charged with defending him 'too well'). France as well. EDL and other thought criminals in the UK are caught, detained in cells and usually released. David Irving's youtube videos about his experiences in Canada and Austria are interesting.

Brendon O'Connell in Australia is in jail for aruging with and being mean to a Jew:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_21LCEIiCE

This guy:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/11/innocence-muslims-filmmaker-sentenced.html

isn't in jail explicitly for thought crimes, though in actuality that is the case.

There are others, there will be more. David Duke was recently arrested in Germany and detained in jail for a few days.

You have to interact with the far right to get updates on this stuff.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2451401/Ivan-Rioufol-prosecuted-19th-century-press-law-questioning-Islam-radio-debate.html

A journalist! Oh Europe, you're going to cause a revolution.

Golden Dawn elected officials have been put in jail recently (and the party is now polling at 19% in second place!). I hope they win and sign a mutual defense treaty with Russia within seconds of taking office. Shake things up.

Titus

Joined: 19 May 2012

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:08 am Post subject:

Continuing my argument that the insane American overclass will eventually start a war with Russia:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/16/opinion/keller-russia-vs-europe.html?pagewanted=print

Russia vs. Europe
By BILL KELLER (who supported war in Iraq b/c it would be good for Israel)

Quote:

The world needs Nelson Mandelas. Instead, it gets Vladimir Putins. As the South African hero was being sung to his grave last week, the Russian president was bullying neighboring Ukraine into a new customs union that is starting to look a bit like Soviet Union Lite, and consolidating his control of state-run media by creating a new Kremlin news agency under a nationalistic and homophobic hard-liner.

Not bullying. Maybe bribing. Why would any nation join the EU?

Note the framing early on. This is the start of a demonization campaign.

Quote:

Putin’s moves were not isolated events. They fit into a pattern of behavior over the past couple of years that deliberately distances Russia from the socially and culturally liberal West: laws giving official sanction to the terrorizing of gays and lesbians, the jailing of members of a punk protest group for offenses against the Russian Orthodox Church, the demonizing of Western-backed pro-democracy organizations as “foreign agents,” expansive new laws on treason, limits on foreign adoptions.

Not being able to have parades = terrorizing gays? By this measure the EU is terrorizing right wing parties.

Quote:

What’s going on is more complicated and more dangerous than just Putin flexing his political pecs. He is trying to draw the line against Europe, to deepen division on a continent that has twice in living memory been the birthplace of world wars. It seems clearer than ever that Putin is not just tweaking the West to rouse his base or nipping domestic opposition in the bud. He is also attempting to turn back 25 years of history.

Note the reference to world wars. For Keller sees degenerate national destroying liberalism is a religious mission. Tikum Olum.

...

Quote:

Since his current presidential term began in 2012, Putin has felt increasingly that his overtures to the West were not met with due respect, that Russia was treated as a defeated nation, not an equal on the world stage. His humiliation and resentment have soured into an ideological antipathy that is not especially Soviet but is deeply Russian. His beef with the West is no longer just about political influence and economic advantage. It is, in his view, profoundly spiritual.

Standard propaganda from Keller. Pathologize.

Quote:

“Putin wants to make Russia into the traditional values capital of the world,” said Masha Gessen, author of a stinging Putin biography, an activist for gay and lesbian rights and a writer for the Latitudes blog on this paper’s website.

Gessen and Keller agree that "traditional values" (aka values) are a Bad Thing.

Quote:

What, you may wonder, does Russia’s retro puritanism have to do with the turmoil in the streets of Kiev, where Ukrainian protesters yearning for a partnership with the European Union confront a president, Viktor Yanukovich, who has seemed intent on joining Putin’s rival “Eurasian” union instead? More than you might think.

Keller has puritanism backwards. Putin wants Russia to be holy. Puritanism demands one be holier than thou. The NYT is Puritan.

Quote:

Listen to the chairman of the Russian Parliament’s International Affairs Committee, Alexei Pushkov, warning that if Ukraine joins the E.U., European advisers will infiltrate the country and introduce “a broadening of the sphere of gay culture.”

This is true.

...

Quote:

Dmitri Trenin, a scholar in the Moscow office of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, is convinced this is not just pandering to a devout constituency, but also something more personal. In the past two years Putin has become more ideologically conservative, more inclined to see Europe as decadent and alien to the Orthodox Christian, Eastern Slav world to which both Russia and Ukraine belong.

So he has eyes.

Quote:

“It’s tolerance that has no bounds,” Trenin told me. “It’s secularism. He sees Europe as post-Christian. It’s national sovereignty that is superseded by supranational institutions. It’s the diminished role of the church. It’s people’s rights that have outstripped people’s responsibilities to one another and to the state.”

This is true.

Quote:

To appreciate the magnitude of what Putin is doing, it helps to recall a bit of history.

If they NYT is going to 'recall history' you're about to get a Madoff style sales pitch:

Quote:

In July 1989, the Soviet president, Mikhail Gorbachev, made a speech in Strasbourg that many took as an important step back from the Cold War. His theme was that Russia now regarded itself as sharing a “common European home” alongside its Western rivals. Mutual respect and trade should replace confrontation and deterrence as the foundations of the relationship. Military blocs would be refashioned into political organizations. What President Reagan dubbed “the evil empire” would be the good neighbor.

And the Americans (Summers, Rubin etc etc) raped the hell out of Russia. That's what cooperation with America gets you.

...

Quote:

Likewise, if Putin dragoons Ukraine into his Russian-dominated alliance, he will need to pacify public opinion by showering the new member with gifts he can’t afford, and ceding it influence that he would rather not share. And even then, resentments of the young Ukrainian Europhiles will fester, and feed the already ample discontent of Russia’s own younger generation. As Trenin points out, “Ukraine will always be looking for the exit.” Putin may learn, as Stalin did, that a captive Ukraine is more trouble than it’s worth.

I doubt it. The EU is going to continue to be economic and cultural suicide.

Here are some better articles about Ukraine.

http://takimag.com/article/pity_the_poor_ukrainians_scott_locklin#axzz2o7bJarTC

http://www.israelshamir.net/English/TheTug.htm

How serious does the NYT et al take the right wing move in Europe?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/opinion/is-fascism-returning-to-europe.html

catman

Joined: 18 Jul 2004

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:41 am Post subject:

Titus wrote:

Continuing my argument that the insane American overclass will eventually start a war with Russia:

There is nothing close to a possible military conflict with Russia. Even if the Republicans take control again they won't pick on a nation that can fight back. Our main worry should continue to be Iran as there are those in congress still itching undermine the latest agreement.

Quote:

Not being able to have parades = terrorizing gays? By this measure the EU is terrorizing right wing parties.

Actually makes it illegal to hold any sort of public demonstration in favour of gay rights, speak in defence of gay rights and distribute material related to gay rights, or to state that gay relationships are equal to heterosexual relationships.

Titus

Joined: 19 May 2012

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:37 am Post subject:

catman wrote:

Titus wrote:

Continuing my argument that the insane American overclass will eventually start a war with Russia:

Quote:

Not being able to have parades = terrorizing gays? By this measure the EU is terrorizing right wing parties.

There are two recent examples of American elites 'just about' going to war with Russia. 1) Wesley Clark during the bombing of Serbia and 2) Dick Cheney during the Georgian conflict. D and R.

That isn't "terrorizing". It is the inverse of the situation in America, effectively. The NYT is working to create a New Hitler, again.

I wonder how many white conservative southern soldiers would turncoat in such a conflict. The LBGQEFRAK Women of Colour can do the fighting?

catman

Joined: 18 Jul 2004

Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:37 am Post subject:

Remember the massive protests against China before the 2008 Olympics? No boycotts happened. No war either.

KimchiNinja

Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject:

What Russia is doing might be pretty great. Either way, it's good to have global cultural diversity, and not just one worldwise culture.

Titus

Joined: 19 May 2012

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject:

Agree. The American/London oligarchy wants a one world culture of androgynous blobs that listen to Lady GaGa while drinking a coke.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:26 pm Post subject:

KimchiNinja wrote:

What Russia is doing might be pretty great.

Either way, it's good to have global cultural diversity, and not just one worldwise culture.

Except that the Russian nationalists to whom Putin is pandering don't view their struggle as being about global cultural diversity. Within Russia itself, they want only one culture calling the shots.

And they don't care how diverse the rest of the world is, and in fact would likely prefer that those places within Russia's sphere of influence(as defined by them) be less diverse and more Russian.

Maybe that's a more logical way to run a country, I don't know, but let's not pretend that it has anything to do with appreciating cultural diversity.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:27 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

KimchiNinja wrote:

What Russia is doing might be pretty great.

Either way, it's good to have global cultural diversity, and not just one worldwise culture.

I don't think he said, or even implied, that the people in charge in Russia appreciate cultural diversity. Rather, he correctly pointed out that in the modern climate, attitudes like theirs preserve cultural diversity. Broader Western culture is moving towards a certain set of core values (consumeristic pleasure, female empowerment, an extreme focus on sexuality, the primacy of self-esteem, etc.), and in order for cultural diversity to exist, other cultures obviously must focus on other values. These men may be mere accidental allies of global cultural diversity, but that's still a marked contrast from the parties who insist that the entire world must operate under the western cultural model.

Ultimately, the Russian people will reap the logical conclusions of their values, and so will the people of the West. The issue will sort itself out naturally enough, and in the mean time, any gay Russian who simply cannot live without pride parades could probably apply for asylum. In any case I feel a lot worse for homosexuals in Africa than I do for homosexuals in Russia.

Titus

Joined: 19 May 2012

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Except that the Russian nationalists to whom Putin is pandering don't view their struggle as being about global cultural diversity.

Putin isn't pandering to Russian nationalists (who despise him and his Eurasian project). Putin has labeled Russian nationalists "extremists" and frequently has them thrown in jail. If anything, he is 'pandering' to the vast, vast majority (85%+) of the Russian population who support the law.

Quote:

Within Russia itself, they want only one culture calling the shots.

As opposed to the situation in ...??

Russians want to dominate Russia. I know this is a brain-exploding concept to Anglo leftists, but it is entirely sensible.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:55 am Post subject:

Quote:

Putin isn't pandering to Russian nationalists (who despise him and his Eurasian project). Putin has labeled Russian nationalists "extremists" and frequently has them thrown in jail.

Political positioning is usually not either/or. That he throws some of the more distruptive nationalists in jail doesn't preclude his pandering to nationalist sentiment generally. I don't think it takes a microscope to see the nationalist overtones in Putin's anti-gay laws, as well as various other aspects of his agenda. In the words of Putin himself...

Quote:

"We don't have any significant ideological differences, but we do have fundamental cultural differences," Putin said, according to the Kremlin transcript.

"Individualism lies at the core of the American identity while Russia has been a country of collectivism.... Russians have different, far loftier ambitions, more of a spiritual kind, it's more about your relationship with God. We have different visions of life," he added.

If calling your nation lofiter, more spiritual, and closer to God isn't a pander to nationalism, there is little else that can be.

And yes. It's no less nationalistic when other nations do it as well(eg. America The Shining City On The Hill etc).

link

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:07 pm Post subject:

Titus wrote:

Quote:

Russians want to dominate Russia. I know this is a brain-exploding concept to Anglo leftists, but it is entirely sensible.

Yeah. Again, I'm not neccessarily saying that monocultural hegemony is a bad thing. Just that in the minds of the people who advocate it, it's got nothing to do with diversity.

Fox wrote:

Quote:

These men may be mere accidental allies of global cultural diversity, but that's still a marked contrast from the parties who insist that the entire world must operate under the western cultural model.

Indeed. It's the "accidental" part of the alliance that I was commenting on, and which I find somewhat amusing. You get the same sort of contradiction in any vision of cultural diversity, including that advocated by the left: the advocates of the overall program claim to be vocalizing the aspirations of numerous cultural groups, but among those groups, there are many motivated entirely be self-interest, totally indifferent or even hostile to the aspirations of other groups.

Admittedly, the tension might be a little less pronounced in the right-wing version of diveristy, given that it is geographically specific(eg. it envisions Russian culture flourishing in Russia and nowhere else), and it's promoters don't make a big show of claiming that everyone will benefit from eperiencing other cultures(as in the official Canadian verstion of multiculturalism).

Titus

Joined: 19 May 2012

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:30 pm Post subject:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/02/glenn-beck-russia_n_4531744.html

Quote:

Glenn Beck Claims He Will 'Stand With GLAAD' Against Russia's 'Hetero-Fascism'

Hetero-facism!

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