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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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 Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Seriously WT, I was not being insulting. I was genuinely saying you should revise your methods.
With the time and money you put into learning Korean, your progress should not slow. Then again I suppose it depends how you define slow and what your expectations of progress are! |
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kpjf
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
What do you think about this? True?
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During childhood, language acquisition is a natural consequence of prolonged exposure to a language. A spoken language need not be formally taught to a child in order to be learned. (By contrast, written language must always be taught.) Any small child will acquire native fluency in any language if exposed to it on a consistent basis in a social setting. A child will naturally acquire native fluency in more than one language under these circumstances.
In the overwhelming majority of individuals, however, this natural ability to acquire spoken language without deliberate effort begins to diminish sharply at about the age of puberty. |
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| Language acquisition by adults is language learning--a deliberate, painstaking, intellectual process that rarely, if ever, results in the total native fluency acquired so naturally by any small child, regardless of intellectual ability or personal motivation. The deficiency is particularly evident at the phonetic level |
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| Although every child, regardless of intellectual level, is equally gifted at acquiring language, it does not seem to be the case with adults. |
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| Do some adults possess a special aptitude for learning languages after the critical age? Probably yes |
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not all will do so with equal results (unlike the case with child language acquisition). Adult language learning ability seems to involve a type of talent, or set of talents. What are these talents that can partly mimic childlike facility with language?
Differences in adult ability to master the grammar of a second language seem only in part connected to individual differences in general intelligence; the ability to learn languages in adulthood seems to be a talent apart from what we usually label as general intelligence. In fact, some adults who are seriously learning impaired have almost childlike abilities to master languages (General Eisenhower's translator was a man of very meager mental abilities who was fluent in 44 languages and acquired new ones very quickly.) Adult language learning aptitude seems to be a separate ability, like musical or artistic talent.
Differences in adult abilities to learn languages are even more apparent at the phonetic level: some adults have a natural talent for imitating the voices of other people; other adults do not have this talent at all. This talent for phonetic mimicry in adults definitely does not depend on general intelligence. People of very limited intellectual abilities sometimes have amazing abilities to imitate people's voices (cf. the Truman Capote story Johnny Bear, about an idiot savant with amazing mimicry ability.) |
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| the degree of eventual fluency achieved will differ considerably from individual to individual, unlike the situation with child language acquisition (where every child achieves perfect fluency given enough exposure). |
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Source(s)???
I don't necessarily agree with all of this, but in linguistics and second language acquisition of course there are different schools of thought! There isn't one answer.
Of course for the accent I think being honest you're not going to get "native-like" pronunciation if you begin after a certain age, unless of course the language is very similar (eg Norwegian and Swedish) or you are the exception. In this respect we must be realistic.
I'm fluent in Spanish (have a C2 certificate - the highest level possible) but there are some sounds I just can't do! It is frustrating, however, I just have to accept it.
I remember joining an intensive beginners' German class and there was a Vietnamese girl, really good student but she had serious serious problems with her accent; on the other hand this American who was worse than her as a student (had never learnt a language before, had problems with basic grammatical structures etc) might be deemed at first glance to have the better German.
Watch a bit of this:
I'm not advocating all of what he says, just giving you the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x2_kWRB8-A
This guy has a very successful website and although I think it's a total exaggeration "fluent in 3 months" (his website is called http://www.fluentin3months.com/), he seems to have a knack for language learning (at least at communicative level) and he seemed to have a language learning problem in the past and thought he wasn't cut out for it. He's basically saying it's nonsense to say you don't have the "language gene" and it can be an excuse to just say oh I'm not good at learning languages etc.
This American guy also seems very good (I don't speak Mandarin etc to know what his level is like): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITzFRlVhMVs he seems to speak a lot of languages but like I say I don't know what his actual level is in these languages.
I think maybe your problem is trying too hard (?). How long have you been learning Korean for? What is your approximate level? What is it you have most problems with? Is it remembering words? being grammatically accurate? communicating with native speakers? Understanding when someone speaks? |
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kpjf
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| (General Eisenhower's translator was a man of very meager mental abilities who was fluent in 44 languages and acquired new ones very quickly.) Adult language learning aptitude seems to be a separate ability, like musical or artistic talent. |
I smell bulls*t. Seriously, 44 languages - that cannot be true, unless the writer has a very weird definition of fluency. |
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kpjf
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| kpjf wrote: |
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| (General Eisenhower's translator was a man of very meager mental abilities who was fluent in 44 languages and acquired new ones very quickly.) Adult language learning aptitude seems to be a separate ability, like musical or artistic talent. |
I smell bulls*t. Seriously, 44 languages - that cannot be true, unless the writer has a very weird definition of fluency. |
Even though it's from Wikipedia
Vernon A. Walters (Translated for Eisenhower)
He was fluent in French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese as well as his native English. He also spoke German fluently but, as he joked, inaccurately, and knew the basics of several others. His simultaneous translation of a speech by United States President Richard Nixon in France prompted French President Charles de Gaulle to say to Nixon, "You gave a magnificent speech, but your interpreter was eloquent."
Another source:
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/vawalters.htm
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| He spoke seven or eight languages, five of them fluently, and served part time as an interpreter to five presidents. |
Another ( https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol46no1/article01.html ):
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| Among his most remarkable achievements were mastering some six West European languages, learning the basics of several others, and later becoming fluent in Chinese and Russian. Throughout his professional life, Gen. Walters enjoyed drawing a crowd by engaging in impromptu cocktail-party linguistic "battles of wits" with other multi-lingual people. In one version, a person would engage two others in conversation. Each time a participant’s turn came to respond, he or she had to speak in a different language. Apparently the game went on until only one of the participants had an unused language left in which to converse. Walters no doubt fared well in such encounters. |
So, he was probably properly fluent in about 6-7 languages maximum, which is pretty damn amazing! Yet, at the same time I find in English native speakers tend to be very generous labeling someone fluent. American/British media act like a Hollywood actor/actress who speaks an intermediate level in a language is a genius!
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| General Eisenhower's translator was a man of very meager mental abilities... |
Give the man some respect! Being a translator is extremely difficult and you need to be very intelligent. I've briefly worked as one myself and your brain has to function on different levels - a stupid person couldn't do it. You not only need to pay attention always, but you must at the same time be thinking how you'll translate what you're hearing, how to say it in a natural way in the language and so-on.
Sorry to bang on but I just wanted to point that out! |
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kengreen
Joined: 19 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Some people are just blessed with God-given talent. Conrad, fluent in seven languages, wrote in English. Yet it wasn't even his native tongue. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Mugsy Bogues can (could?) dunk. I can't.  |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| kpjf wrote: |
| This guy has a very successful website and although I think it's a total exaggeration "fluent in 3 months" (his website is called http://www.fluentin3months.com/), he seems to have a knack for language learning (at least at communicative level) and he seemed to have a language learning problem in the past and thought he wasn't cut out for it. He's basically saying it's nonsense to say you don't have the "language gene" and it can be an excuse to just say oh I'm not good at learning languages etc. |
That guy sells stuff to adults who want to learn a language so of course he is going to say anyone can do it.
| kpjf wrote: |
| This American guy also seems very good (I don't speak Mandarin etc to know what his level is like): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITzFRlVhMVs he seems to speak a lot of languages but like I say I don't know what his actual level is in these languages. |
I know all about him. In a book, he said he has a talent for learning languages; he says he can learn languages quickly. Also, he says any adult can learn languages. Surprise, surprise, he sells courses and makes good money off of it. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| kpjf wrote: |
| I think maybe your problem is trying too hard (?). |
I don't think so. (Most people's problem is they don't try hard enough.)
| kpjf wrote: |
| How long have you been learning Korean for? What is your approximate level? What is it you have most problems with? Is it remembering words? being grammatically accurate? communicating with native speakers? Understanding when someone speaks? |
I've been learning for so long- an embarrassing amount of time. It's hard to say how many hours I've put in. A lot. I've spend millions of won, including over 3,000,000 for 20 weeks of full time intensive language study at two different universities. More than that was spent on private tutoring and over 1,000,000 was spent on books, tapes, and CDs (Pimsleur, Rosetta Stone, etc.). I had a huge collection. It's really sad to think about it. Oh well, I guess I'll just keep plugging away.
My biggest problem hearing the sounds as they are spoken/ hearing a sentence and comprehending all the syllables and knowing what is says. Really tricky. (But everything is hard. All aspects of the language are tough.) |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| I heard about that dude before. (I don't want to watch the videos; I'll just get too jealous. >_<) |
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kpjf
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
That guy sells stuff to adults who want to learn a language so of course he is going to say anyone can do it. |
That's all well and true, but he's learning tonnes of languages whereas the typical person is learning one or so which should for the majority be feasible: not necessarily perfect grammar but communicative competence at least.
From what I read I thought that maybe a different method could work, given that from what it seems everything you've done thus far hasn't properly worked.
What is your level?
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| I know all about him. In a book, he said he has a talent for learning languages; he says he can learn languages quickly. Also, he says any adult can learn languages. Surprise, surprise, he sells courses and makes good money off of it. |
I know how Benny makes his money, but how does this Moses guy make money? What courses does he sell? Sources please because I can't find any and from what it seems Moses just loves learning languages and does it on a personal level.
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| Also, he says any adult can learn languages. |
I'd say this is obvious. Not everyone will have a C2 (Native like) standard but anyone should be able to learn a language unless they have some kind of disability. |
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Ginormousaurus
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Location: 700 Ft. Pulpit
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I highly recommend his book Born on a Blue Day. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| kpjf wrote: |
| I know how Benny makes his money, but how does this Moses guy make money? What courses does he sell? Sources please because I can't find any and from what it seems Moses just loves learning languages and does it on a personal level. |
http://www.flrmethod.com |
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kpjf
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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