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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
Maybe not so much for the spitting, but the smoking at bars is disgusting and a health concern. Yes drinking is also not healthy, but just because you engage in one unhealthy activity means that you want to be simultaneously engaged in another. Isn't it a bit simple minded to think that people only have one reason for what they think? Smoking is disgusting, and smoking is a legitimate health concern, there is no contradiction there. |
To kind of go with what Fox is saying, its telling that you put 'disgusting' first, before health concern, which if you talk to people who favor smoking bans, inevitably comes out as a core reason. The health excuse often comes as the sensible explanation for wanting to outlaw something based on personal disgust (as is almost always the case with morals bans- homosexuality, drugs, prohibition, books, etc.) The person starts with disgust and then argues backwards to the health argument.
If people were worried about their health they wouldn't get eating a basket of chicken fingers and an appetizer of nachos while drinking a six-pack of beer. I get smoking bans in places of commerce and movie theaters and the like. The whole "no smoking at clubs or bars" thing just baffles me. Its like mandating soda sizes at fast food restaurants. Oh gee, the 20 oz. soda limit will really make a different after my Baconator burger and large fries.
If public health is a concern, ban bars. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Maybe not so much for the spitting, but the smoking at bars is disgusting and a health concern. Yes drinking is also not healthy, but just because you engage in one unhealthy activity means that you want to be simultaneously engaged in another. Isn't it a bit simple minded to think that people only have one reason for what they think? Smoking is disgusting, and smoking is a legitimate health concern, there is no contradiction there. |
To kind of go with what Fox is saying, its telling that you put 'disgusting' first, before health concern, which if you talk to people who favor smoking bans, inevitably comes out as a core reason. The health excuse often comes as the sensible explanation for wanting to outlaw something based on personal disgust (as is almost always the case with morals bans- homosexuality, drugs, prohibition, books, etc.) The person starts with disgust and then argues backwards to the health argument.
If people were worried about their health they wouldn't get eating a basket of chicken fingers and an appetizer of nachos while drinking a six-pack of beer. I get smoking bans in places of commerce and movie theaters and the like. The whole "no smoking at clubs or bars" thing just baffles me. Its like mandating soda sizes at fast food restaurants. Oh gee, the 20 oz. soda limit will really make a different after my Baconator burger and large fries.
If public health is a concern, ban bars. |
Again, you are taking a simple minded tack here. It is not an either or proposition. The disgusting and health are kind of wrapped up together, humans are conditioned to find unhealthy things to be disgusting.
It's kind of obvious isn't it, my drinking or eating fast food doesn't affect anyone else's health, but smoking affects the health of everyone else in the room, including the workers. Also, drinking is healthy in moderation, whereas smoking is never healthy, and people are more likely to drink in moderation than smoke in moderation. You keep throwing up false equivalences and expect it to be convincing. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Of course Fox chooses to defend Koreans against the constant stream of vapid slander, but also chooses to stand his ground where there is already a heap of spit. |
Kuros, want to join my modern Cynic revival? If there's one person here who can rival me and gruffly scolding the broader populace, it's surely you. It might even be warm enough in Kentucky to sleep outdoors all year, I don't know. If you die of hypothermia, you'll be a valuable statistic in the service of the war on homelessness if nothing else. |
I am down if we can throw our feces at passerby.
Although Kentucky is cold this time of year. |
Well, Diogenes evidently defecated on a wealthy man's table, so there's some precedent. If feces is to be your chosen pedagogic medium, all I can advise is to use it wisely. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| It's kind of obvious isn't it, my drinking or eating fast food doesn't affect anyone else's health |
It affects my medical insurance. Why should I have to pay for your obesity and diabetes?
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| but smoking affects the health of everyone else in the room, including the workers. |
Oh please, spare us the "I care about the workers". I notice in smoking debates people always fall back on this one as they reverse justify their stance. What's telling is they don't start with "All the people who work at smoking restaurants are constantly complaining to me about the smokers" Why? Most of them smoke as well.
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| drinking is healthy in moderation |
Fine, lets legislate the amount of alcohol one may purchase at bars. Its all about health.
And of course none of them can ever explain how or why they are forced to enter a smoking club or bar. It's an argument not based on legal principles and concerns rationally applied. Its personal disgust and then legal justifications are sought to impose that disgust upon people. It is not based on reason or principle and the people arguing for it aren't even being honest with us or themselves in admitting its based on disgust, not rational principles of justice. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| Gentlemen, you're derailing the thread from its original subject: spitting and its dangers. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
And of course none of them can ever explain how or why they are forced to enter a smoking club or bar. It's an argument not based on legal principles and concerns rationally applied. Its personal disgust and then legal justifications are sought to impose that disgust upon people. It is not based on reason or principle and the people arguing for it aren't even being honest with us or themselves in admitting its based on disgust, not rational principles of justice. |
Finally you got around to it. This is the only valid argument your side has. I personally don't care that much about whether smoking is allowed or not, but most of your previous statements were pretty overwrought. I was glad for personal reasons when it was outlawed in my home state, but didn't really care that much, and that joy was offset by hearing friends complain about smoking outdoors. I am for cigarettes being banned in public places, near entrances, etc. but if people want to indulge in smoking in a bar, in most cases let them.
Every Time you argue about health, it is silly, do not use that one, cigarettes are an imposition on other people that all the other vices you mentioned are not. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
And of course none of them can ever explain how or why they are forced to enter a smoking club or bar. It's an argument not based on legal principles and concerns rationally applied. Its personal disgust and then legal justifications are sought to impose that disgust upon people. It is not based on reason or principle and the people arguing for it aren't even being honest with us or themselves in admitting its based on disgust, not rational principles of justice. |
Finally you got around to it. This is the only valid argument your side has. I personally don't care that much about whether smoking is allowed or not, but most of your previous statements were pretty overwrought. I was glad for personal reasons when it was outlawed in my home state, but didn't really care that much, and that joy was offset by hearing friends complain about smoking outdoors. I am for cigarettes being banned in public places, near entrances, etc. but if people want to indulge in smoking in a bar, in most cases let them.
Every Time you argue about health, it is silly, do not use that one, cigarettes are an imposition on other people that all the other vices you mentioned are not. |
I think we're reaching a consensus here. Strict smoking bans in public places, but when it comes to seedy bars, let the people smoke. No reason it should ever be banned there. I'm even for bans of indoor smoking in apartments. But I just can't find any rational basis to ban smoking in restaurants that primarily serve unhealthy food and bars where people go to get piss drunk. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| It's been so long since I've been to a restaurant that allowed smoking. I think that Korean coffee shops have the best idea, really. Put the smokers and non-smokers in different rooms. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Passive smoking is harmful and does kill. I am sick and tired of people walking down the street smoking their fags and then blowing it in my face.
They show no regard whatsoever to the health of anybody else, so forgive me if I don’t care about their 'persecution'.
Spitting is gross and I would bet a sizable number of Koreans are hardly enamoured by the sound/sight of it either.
The US is a continental sized country with 300 million people, there is absolutely nothing remarkable about its power or pre-eminence. On the other hand, the fact that a tiny unremarkable island off the North West coast of Europe with horrible food and even worse weather became a global hegemon, was the birthplace of the greatest step forward for mankind since the domestication of plants and animals and was the progenitor of a global language is quite simply extraordinary.
The vision of Stalin marching through Paris is every bit as nightmarish as a Nazi victory parade through Moscow or London. Minus the US, UK or any of their allies history would indeed have entered a new dark age. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Passive smoking is harmful and does kill |
At bars you visit twice a week? And more responsible for your ill health than the chili cheese fries you snarfed or the 8 Jagerbombs you slammed?
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| I am sick and tired of people walking down the street smoking their fags and then blowing it in my face. |
I am too, that's why they should be smoking in their bars.
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| The vision of Stalin marching through Paris is every bit as nightmarish as a Nazi victory parade through Moscow or London. Minus the US, UK or any of their allies history would indeed have entered a new dark age. |
I think the vision of British soldiers massacring 1000 unarmed civilians including women and children, enslaving your people, and invading and occupying your native country for over 200 years constitutes "a new dark age" for whatever part of Africa or Asia you are from. We need to be able to look at things from their perspective as well.
For British people, Britain was great at securing their prosperity, freedom, and rights. For Indians or Africans, they have a different view. The British are Stalin or Hitler to some of them.
What good is any of that industrial revolution, global language, and stopping the Nazis if YOU were Indian and its your family that got gunned down peacefully protesting for basic human rights? I think they'd say "Screw that, I want my daughter back that you murdered you SOBs" |
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Hokie21
Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Why are you under the assumption that everyone who goes to bars eats a crap ton of junk food and drinks a crap ton of booze? Back in the US I would work out 5 days a week and on Saturday mornings I'd ride with my cycling club which after 60 + miles would finish at Iron Hill Brewery, our main sponsor. We'd sit around for about 2 hours having half priced mini pizza's and drink about 2 or 3 beers. No fatties in our group.
That was my junk food and beer for the week so yeah I'd be pretty annoyed if people came in and started smoking indoors. Contrary to popular belief not even who goes out for a couple drinks on the weekend is an unhealthy slob whose killing their bodies. Thankfully in most states in the US the law stats if you want to smoke you've got to go outside to a designated area.
It sounds like you've been in Korea too long. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Passive smoking is harmful and does kill |
At bars you visit twice a week? And more responsible for your ill health than the chili cheese fries you snarfed or the 8 Jagerbombs you slammed?
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This part of the discussion is poorly thought out.
Why do you think one bad thing legitimizes another one?
Then while you're at it, add spitting on the floors in the bar.
And lets add pissing on the floor too, just feel free to relieve tensions as people see fit?
Fewer is better in that regard...no?
No smoking indoors anywhere.
Seriously.
WTF is wrong with people who smoke and can't get this?
Smoking indoors is a vile disgusting habit and the health issues can not be put aside.
I realize the hard-core indoor smokers take offense to this line of thinking, but fortunately, they are a dying breed...such is life.
By all means, go ahead and smoke, but do it away from others and not indoors.
SR...the eating junk food and drinking too much are issues to be dealt with as well, but not to be compounded with smoking indoors...yes? |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Passive smoking is harmful and does kill |
At bars you visit twice a week? And more responsible for your ill health than the chili cheese fries you snarfed or the 8 Jagerbombs you slammed?
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| I am sick and tired of people walking down the street smoking their fags and then blowing it in my face. |
I am too, that's why they should be smoking in their bars.
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| The vision of Stalin marching through Paris is every bit as nightmarish as a Nazi victory parade through Moscow or London. Minus the US, UK or any of their allies history would indeed have entered a new dark age. |
I think the vision of British soldiers massacring 1000 unarmed civilians including women and children, enslaving your people, and invading and occupying your native country for over 200 years constitutes "a new dark age" for whatever part of Africa or Asia you are from. We need to be able to look at things from their perspective as well.
For British people, Britain was great at securing their prosperity, freedom, and rights. For Indians or Africans, they have a different view. The British are Stalin or Hitler to them. |
I am not going to defend the British Empire as a force for good, but at its most vicious it was no worse than any other contemporary foreign invader to a new land. Obviously not much comfort to their victims, but it cannot be compared to what occured under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler.
The holocaust was somewhat unique in human history and I am not just talking about the techonological differences. I am talking about the thinking behind such actions, the systemic industrialized murder of a stateless people who had no territory or land based on their race/religion has no parallel in British colonial history. The same goes for the crimes of Stalin.
Plus if you want to compare Hitler and Stalin to Britain, you have to do so with the British Empire of the mid-twentieth century.
Also when it comes to native peoples in what became the dominions, Southern and Western Africa terrible sins were indeed committed. When it comes to the giant asiatic empires of the East, it is a completely different story. Their opponents in the subcontinent and China weren't vastly weaker than Britain and in many ways they were far more 'advanced''. They had a war or two, lost and then for a century or two got a tiny taste of what they had dished out to others over the millenia.
Finally, I am not suggesting for a second that Britain was or is the greatest country on Earth. Nor am I trying to deny that vast and terrible crimes were committed by the British Empire.
All I was adding to the conversation was that there is nothing remarkable about giant powerful countries being giant and powerful. Tiny little islands which go on to dominate the planet is on the other hand an impressive feat. That and no Britain, no real victory in WWII.
I think you can be proud of your history as long as you recognise the evil. Maybe a similar kind of retrospection would be good for the modern empires of today. Say what you want about Britain, but we had our fun in the sun and we went home. The same cannot be said of the USA, China, Russia, Australia, Canada etc who still hold on to their conquests and get fat off imperialism. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| It's kind of obvious isn't it, my drinking or eating fast food doesn't affect anyone else's health |
It affects my medical insurance. Why should I have to pay for your obesity and diabetes? |
More importantly, why should I pay for McDonald's low wages when its products are raising the costs of my medical insurance? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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They had a war or two, lost and then for a century or two got a tiny taste of what they had dished out to others over the millenia.
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Why do I have the feeling that if such a thing had happened to Britain, the phrase "'they got a taste of what they dished out to others" would not be how you or British people would view such an episode. By that logic, Nazi Germany in 1940 invading France, well before 'The Final Solution', was giving France 'a taste of what they dished out'.
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Tiny little islands which go on to dominate the planet is on the other hand an impressive feat. That and no Britain, no real victory in WWII.
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I'm not sure impressive is the proper term for such actions as in the end there seems to be a sentiment behind it that the ends justified the means.
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| Say what you want about Britain, but we had our fun in the sun and we went home. |
Is that what you'd say to the grandchildren of someone killed in Malaysia or at Amritsar? Chattel slavery, massacres, wars of conquest, and denial of basic human rights is "fun in the sun"? And then you just "went home" like you decided to leave the beach? Not, "We had to leave when the people protested our barbarous rule and racist views and had numerous uprisings for the basic right of self determination until your morality and that of the world came around to realizing how utterly shameful your actions were"?
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| I think you can be proud of your history as long as you recognise the evil. |
I don't think referring to your history as "fun in the sun and then we went home" is recognizing the evil. Your words may say that you recognize the evil, but such phrases reveal the true nature of that view.
If someone who was wounded or lost a loved one protesting British rule in India or Malaysia, would you say to their face that such times were "fun in the sun" for the British? Do you think such phrases respect and truly empathize with what the people of those countries endured? |
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