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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it depends on who you are in N.Korea, just like those other countries. Members of the ruling, military, and technical class might regard things as repressive, but not brutal. Get into laborers and peasants however and things can be pretty awful. There are people in groups who get rewarded and are offered security and feel an element of loyalty towards the regime. Then there are people who get their villages burned down and their families thrown in camps. You can have things be not as bad and just as bad if not worse simultaneously in the same country at the same time. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I think it depends on who you are in N.Korea, just like those other countries. Members of the ruling, military, and technical class might regard things as repressive, but not brutal. Get into laborers and peasants however and things can be pretty awful. There are people in groups who get rewarded and are offered security and feel an element of loyalty towards the regime. Then there are people who get their villages burned down and their families thrown in camps. You can have things be not as bad and just as bad if not worse simultaneously in the same country at the same time. |
Considering the recent purges, which have been pretty deep, not sure if that is a safe bet to make. Also, it's not like the ruling, military , or technical class is very large, unless you count the whole military, but even they don't have enough food. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| I think it depends on who you are in N.Korea, just like those other countries. Members of the ruling, military, and technical class might regard things as repressive, but not brutal. Get into laborers and peasants however and things can be pretty awful. There are people in groups who get rewarded and are offered security and feel an element of loyalty towards the regime. Then there are people who get their villages burned down and their families thrown in camps. You can have things be not as bad and just as bad if not worse simultaneously in the same country at the same time. |
Considering the recent purges, which have been pretty deep, not sure if that is a safe bet to make. Also, it's not like the ruling, military , or technical class is very large, unless you count the whole military, but even they don't have enough food. |
Although I don't agree with the idea that North Korea "isn't that bad", one interesting thing I heard in some interview with the guy who was born in a gulag and escaped was that he experienced more of a culture shock leaving the prison and going into "normal" North Korea than going from North Korea to the China/S. Korea/The U.S. Which I think kinda goes to show how things aren't as drastically different and at the same time are horrifically brutal. Considering how many people are in those camps and what they are going through, its hard to imagine. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| NK is the biggest blackhole of intelligence in the world. |
That's actually why it's so easy for me to suspect a lot of the worst portrayals are actually correct. In general I agree with you that countries tend to exaggerate the worst about their enemies (at least in public), but the fact that North Korea feels an intense need to hide both its people from the world and the world from its people implies to me that things really are very, very bad there. Some of the stuff (e.g. "Kim Jong Eun fed his naked uncle to dogs in freezing weather!") is probably overblown, but the hardship of the people's daily lives likely is not.
| Hokie21 wrote: |
| Jvalmer is a complete idiot. |
No he's not. Skepticism is a good instinct. In this particular case I think there's probably reason to overcome doubt, but as a general rule, his approach of suspicion towards potentially agenda-laden portrayals of "the enemy" is reasonable. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
No he's not. Skepticism is a good instinct. In this particular case I think there's probably reason to overcome doubt, but as a general rule, his approach of suspicion towards potentially agenda-laden portrayals of "the enemy" is reasonable. |
In some sense skepticism is reasonable, but when you actually don't know what you are talking about, it isn't as much. There is a lot that we do actually know. It is true there is hyperbole, such as the feeding the uncle to the dogs bit, but when you can monitor the actual labor camps through google earth, and when there are so many defectors who say the same things, then skepticism is a bit tiresome.
If something does seem overly ridiculous, and isn't really verified, then it's ok to be skeptical, because the KCIA has been know to make things up for their own purposes. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| I think it depends on who you are in N.Korea, just like those other countries. Members of the ruling, military, and technical class might regard things as repressive, but not brutal. Get into laborers and peasants however and things can be pretty awful. There are people in groups who get rewarded and are offered security and feel an element of loyalty towards the regime. Then there are people who get their villages burned down and their families thrown in camps. You can have things be not as bad and just as bad if not worse simultaneously in the same country at the same time. |
Considering the recent purges, which have been pretty deep, not sure if that is a safe bet to make. Also, it's not like the ruling, military , or technical class is very large, unless you count the whole military, but even they don't have enough food. |
Although I don't agree with the idea that North Korea "isn't that bad", one interesting thing I heard in some interview with the guy who was born in a gulag and escaped was that he experienced more of a culture shock leaving the prison and going into "normal" North Korea than going from North Korea to the China/S. Korea/The U.S. Which I think kinda goes to show how things aren't as drastically different and at the same time are horrifically brutal. Considering how many people are in those camps and what they are going through, its hard to imagine. |
http://www.amazon.com/Aquariums-Pyongyang-Years-North-Korean/dp/0465011047/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1392166383&sr=1-6&keywords=north+korea
This book is about a boy who spent ten years in one of the camps. It is very good, but hard to read. It's not that normal life in NK is not that bad/comparable to US and China, but that the life in the camps are so unimaginably bad, and the author was actually in one of the less horrific ones. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
No he's not. Skepticism is a good instinct. In this particular case I think there's probably reason to overcome doubt, but as a general rule, his approach of suspicion towards potentially agenda-laden portrayals of "the enemy" is reasonable. |
In some sense skepticism is reasonable, but when you actually don't know what you are talking about, it isn't as much. |
When you don't know what you're talking about is the best time to be skeptical. In fact, lack of knowledge is the ultimate justification for skepticism.
| Leon wrote: |
| There is a lot that we do actually know. It is true there is hyperbole, such as the feeding the uncle to the dogs bit, but when you can monitor the actual labor camps through google earth, and when there are so many defectors who say the same things, then skepticism is a bit tiresome. |
Well, I already said I agreed that in the case of North Korea I think there's cause to reach some conclusions, but I don't think someone is being "a complete idiot" to disagree with that. If he really thinks the sources aren't trustworthy, then it's not idiocy to be wary. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
No he's not. Skepticism is a good instinct. In this particular case I think there's probably reason to overcome doubt, but as a general rule, his approach of suspicion towards potentially agenda-laden portrayals of "the enemy" is reasonable. |
In some sense skepticism is reasonable, but when you actually don't know what you are talking about, it isn't as much. |
When you don't know what you're talking about is the best time to be skeptical. In fact, lack of knowledge is the ultimate justification for skepticism. |
I agree with that, except with the added caveat that it is also the best time to actually learn about the thing you are skeptical of, instead of just remaining skeptical and ignorant.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| There is a lot that we do actually know. It is true there is hyperbole, such as the feeding the uncle to the dogs bit, but when you can monitor the actual labor camps through google earth, and when there are so many defectors who say the same things, then skepticism is a bit tiresome. |
Well, I already said I agreed that in the case of North Korea I think there's cause to reach some conclusions, but I don't think someone is being "a complete idiot" to disagree with that. If he really thinks the sources aren't trustworthy, then it's not idiocy to be wary. |
He thinks things weren't that bad in the USSR or China, but there is not really any contention that millions and millions of people died of man made famines in both. Also, to be reflexively skeptical, instead of critically skeptical, is not a good trait. I wouldn't call him a complete idiot though. |
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Hokie21
Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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My bad. He's not a complete idiot. Just an idiot.
I'll say it again though, go work with the refugees at Mulmangcho, tell them how their families don't have it so bad back in North Korea. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Hokie21 wrote: |
My bad. He's not a complete idiot. Just an idiot.
I'll say it again though, go work with the refugees at Mulmangcho, tell them how their families don't have it so bad back in North Korea. |
I agree their lives may have been a living hell. That's the constant one-side story of people unhappy enough to defect that the western press just loves. But there are still 21,950,000 North Koreans that have yet to make it to South Korea. Take the worst figures out there of estimates of NKers in China then maybe 19,950,00 in NK. But how many of those 2 million in China are actually going to defect? Most do go back with the money they earned in China.
I'm willing to bet most of the ones that return won't be bothered by any government official, aside from maybe a bribe of the border guards to get back in. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| I'm willing to bet most of the ones that return won't be bothered by any government official, aside from maybe a bribe of the border guards to get back in. |
you must be kidding. that's an immediate life time sentence for you, your family and any future family they will have (who are obviously innocent, but hey, the great leader doesn't care about such thing) in one of the korean gulags.
you really need to read about north korea before you say stuff like this jvalmer. if you did, you'd know that north korea is a huge tattle-tale country and that it's instilled in them at birth. even the one guy who was able to successfully escape a korean gulag said that he tattled on his mother when she did something against the rules knowing she'd die because that's what he was taught to do.
spoiler alert:
she did indeed die. |
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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I know a woman who works at the British Embassy in S. Korea who previously worked at the British Embassy in N.Korea for five years. She said it really wasn't that bad. Obviously she probably only saw what they wanted her to see. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| I'm willing to bet most of the ones that return won't be bothered by any government official, aside from maybe a bribe of the border guards to get back in. |
you must be kidding. that's an immediate life time sentence for you, your family and any future family they will have (who are obviously innocent, but hey, the great leader doesn't care about such thing) in one of the korean gulags.
you really need to read about north korea before you say stuff like this jvalmer. if you did, you'd know that north korea is a huge tattle-tale country and that it's instilled in them at birth. even the one guy who was able to successfully escape a korean gulag said that he tattled on his mother when she did something against the rules knowing she'd die because that's what he was taught to do.
spoiler alert:
she did indeed die. |
There are lots of North Koreans in China and Russia, and most don't plan on defecting and do return home. But I guess you don't get that story when you only read about defectors.
To remind you I'm not talking about some guy who spent time in a gulag. I'm just talking about some average North Korean in China making money and returning home with that money. Which happnes to be most North Korean in China. The defectors are the minority. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Skepticism is a good instinct. |
So now we have unprecedented high-level talks happening between DPRK and the ROK. This week.
Jong-Uns administration has held press conferences and has been communicating messages of a desire for reconciliation for the past 2 months now.
If you hold on to your useless scepticism for too long you miss the boat. It takes positivity and optimism to move forward. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| I'm willing to bet most of the ones that return won't be bothered by any government official, aside from maybe a bribe of the border guards to get back in. |
you must be kidding. that's an immediate life time sentence for you, your family and any future family they will have (who are obviously innocent, but hey, the great leader doesn't care about such thing) in one of the korean gulags.
you really need to read about north korea before you say stuff like this jvalmer. if you did, you'd know that north korea is a huge tattle-tale country and that it's instilled in them at birth. even the one guy who was able to successfully escape a korean gulag said that he tattled on his mother when she did something against the rules knowing she'd die because that's what he was taught to do.
spoiler alert:
she did indeed die. |
There are lots of North Koreans in China and Russia, and most don't plan on defecting and do return home. But I guess you don't get that story when you only read about defectors.
To remind you I'm not talking about some guy who spent time in a gulag. I'm just talking about some average North Korean in China making money and returning home with that money. Which happnes to be most North Korean in China. The defectors are the minority. |
you realize they escape to china because that border is far less regulated than the DMZ then they go home after making money by their own will to try and buy freedom for their families right? as well, china and north korea are allies and china deports them back to north korea (to a waiting death sentence) if caught and refuses to let them go to south korea...
remember that in korean culture they do anything for their families.
i haven't seen you post many silly things before but you should probably stop posting about this topic because you seriously don't seem to have a clue. |
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