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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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This is something I'm not clear about, maybe somebody here can clear this up for me. Are the people in Kiev really ultra-nationalists, fascists, whatever? Russia says they are, but Russia is not really an unbiased source.
Also, if they are ultranationalists, then shouldn't some of the people here be more sympathetic, just saying. |
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actionjackson
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
This is something I'm not clear about, maybe somebody here can clear this up for me. Are the people in Kiev really ultra-nationalists, fascists, whatever? Russia says they are, but Russia is not really an unbiased source.
Also, if they are ultranationalists, then shouldn't some of the people here be more sympathetic, just saying. |
http://en.ria.ru/images/15520/63/155206369.jpg |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
My prediction now is that minor skirmishes between Ukranian and Russian forces escalate, giving Russia an excuse to occupy a greater area of Russian-speaking East Ukraine.
Should we care? Not a bit.
Certainly no more than we already care about e.g. the UK occupying Northern Ireland and the Falkland islands. |
You're an idiot. Noone is occupying Northern Ireland. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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goreality
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
My prediction now is that minor skirmishes between Ukranian and Russian forces escalate, giving Russia an excuse to occupy a greater area of Russian-speaking East Ukraine.
Should we care? Not a bit.
Certainly no more than we already care about e.g. the UK occupying Northern Ireland and the Falkland islands. |
You're an idiot. Noone is occupying Northern Ireland. |
The Northern Irish are 
But on that note, yes we should care because although those two disputes were virtually settled centuries ago, and referendums say they are content with how things are. Democracy prevails.
This Crimea dispute is hot, happened last week and is still relevant for global affairs. The referendum that comes up will likely show they are actually feeling occupied by Ukraine and want nothing more to do with them. This is in stark contast with territories the Irish and Argentinians are claiming from the UK.
Also Crimea was once the focal point of a major war. Those other territories are on the periphery of global affairs and more important for scoring cheap political points at home with little or no regards for the how the majority of the people who are living there feel. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
My prediction now is that minor skirmishes between Ukranian and Russian forces escalate, giving Russia an excuse to occupy a greater area of Russian-speaking East Ukraine.
Should we care? Not a bit.
Certainly no more than we already care about e.g. the UK occupying Northern Ireland and the Falkland islands. |
You're an idiot. Noone is occupying Northern Ireland. |
Tell that to the Irish republicans.
You missed the point, imbecile.
Uk troops were brought in there with the justification of protecting loyalists and NI remains part of UK "because the majority of its people want it to be so". Similarly with Falklands, the UK occupies it because "Most people living there see themselves as British".
The same can be said about Russia in Crimea. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the article, but I doubt that the 50 or so Swedish Neo-Nazi's are much of a threat. Anyone got more info about this? I am genuinely curious. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
My prediction now is that minor skirmishes between Ukranian and Russian forces escalate, giving Russia an excuse to occupy a greater area of Russian-speaking East Ukraine.
Should we care? Not a bit.
Certainly no more than we already care about e.g. the UK occupying Northern Ireland and the Falkland islands. |
You're an idiot. Noone is occupying Northern Ireland. |
Tell that to the Irish republicans.
You missed the point, imbecile.
Uk troops were brought in there with the justification of protecting loyalists and NI remains part of UK "because the majority of its people want it to be so". Similarly with Falklands, the UK occupies it because "Most people living there see themselves as British".
The same can be said about Russia in Crimea. |
Education fail. Logic fail. Analogy fail.
The British Army wasn't "brought in" from anywhere. Like Scotland, Wales and England, N. Ireland is part of the UK. British troops were always stationed there. Reinforcements were brought in in 1969 to protect Catholics from loyalist rioters. They were emphatically not brought in "with the justification of defending loyalists." You've got it ass backwards. What is now Northern Ireland has been part of the UK since 1800. Irish republicans now accept the legitimacy of Northern Ireland. The Irish gov't has dropped its constitutional claim. Sinn Fein helps run the government in Belfast. The United Nations and European Union accepts that NI is part of the UK. It is not occupied by anyone. There is no controversy.
Oh, and one more thing genius. The Falklands are not, and never have been, part of the UK. Get educated, and then get an opinion. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
Thanks for the article, but I doubt that the 50 or so Swedish Neo-Nazi's are much of a threat. Anyone got more info about this? I am genuinely curious. |
The fellows who were doing the actual fighting were largely right wing (meaning Traditionalist Catholic, nationalists, Nazi's, etc). The majority of the protesters were probably just normals.
It is complicated. Ukraine suffered an unimaginable slaughter during the early years of the Bolsheviks and the Nazi's helped bring it to an end. The feeling towards the far-right in Ukraine is similar to how mainline French society sees the left (it resisted Vichy).
In North America we get an entirely Jewish history of things so we're not really able to understand the nuance of WW2 and how different groups intersected during that time. National myths are very powerful. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Thanks for the article, but I doubt that the 50 or so Swedish Neo-Nazi's are much of a threat. Anyone got more info about this? I am genuinely curious. |
The fellows who were doing the actual fighting were largely right wing (meaning Traditionalist Catholic, nationalists, Nazi's, etc). The majority of the protesters were probably just normals.
It is complicated. Ukraine suffered an unimaginable slaughter during the early years of the Bolsheviks and the Nazi's helped bring it to an end. The feeling towards the far-right in Ukraine is similar to how mainline French society sees the left (it resisted Vichy).
In North America we get an entirely Jewish history of things so we're not really able to understand the nuance of WW2 and how different groups intersected during that time. National myths are very powerful. |
Thanks. I knew that there had to be history behind this. Do you know if Ukraine was one of the places where Stalin sent large numbers of ethnic Russians to go settle there? I have been reading about how the Tartars were forced out of the Crimea during that time period, so I'm wondering what kinds of effect it has had on all of this. You're the resident Russian follower/ soon to be resident Russian, so explain to me what is going on here. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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I get that they are there, but I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how much power do they have, what percentage of the Kiev movement are they, and are they just nationalists, or are they actually out and out fascists like Russia keeps claiming. It's probably hard to find a good answer to that question in all the confusion, I realize, but it seems important to know as this goes on. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Right Sector are one of the groups that asserts that Europe must be cleansed of non-Europeans. Funny to see neo-cons funneling them money. You'd think they'd learned their lesson after Osama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Inu_-0dcSU
| Quote: |
| Stalin sent large numbers of ethnic Russians to go settle there? |
I believe that is true. In the late Stalin and post Stalin years Russians were used in a way similar to the ethnic Hans in present day China. Spread far and wide and wherever they are is Russia (or China).
The Tartars were expelled from Crimea. I don't think there is any disagreement about that. Though I don't know the specifics. I'm sure the devil is in the details. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
Right Sector are one of the groups that asserts that Europe must be cleansed of non-Europeans. Funny to see neo-cons funneling them money. You'd think they'd learned their lesson after Osama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Inu_-0dcSU
| Quote: |
| Stalin sent large numbers of ethnic Russians to go settle there? |
I believe that is true. In the late Stalin and post Stalin years Russians were used in a way similar to the ethnic Hans in present day China. Spread far and wide and wherever they are is Russia (or China).
The Tartars were expelled from Crimea. I don't think there is any disagreement about that. Though I don't know the specifics. I'm sure the devil is in the details. |
I suspect that policy was created for a moment just like this. I wish I had a better grasp on the history of the place, it seems like a lot of stuff is going on under the surface that I can't put my finger on and is likely to be ignored by the press. |
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actionjackson
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at
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