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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| EZE wrote: |
| And yes, I know it's the pot calling the kettle black for an American to say Koreans talk loudly. |
Not necessarily. If anything, it makes it even more meaningful. You know there's something to it when even the loud ones can complain about people louder than them. |
Or it could just be that they don't judge others the same as they judge themselves and believe themselves to be better than they actually are. Surely that's impossible. |
Blah, blah... or it COULD be that one group IS ACTUALLY louder than the other.
By almost any measure or comparison I'm confident Korea and Koreans rank very high in terms of noise level.
But hey, if you don't trust an American's opinion on it, let's throw in any other groups/nationalities to weigh in as well, even other Asians. I'm confident they would still rank Korea and Koreans very high in terms of noise levels.
As far as Americans being noisy, I generally agree. But America is a diverse place; you can definitely say some groups/kinds of Americans are louder than others. And yet on average they pale in comparison to Koreans in terms of being noisy. Americans can be very noisy at certain times and there is a huge range of manners. Koreans are noisy almost all the time. Yell-talking is pretty much the norm and it starts with the kids and never stops. And that's just one example but it sets the tone for everything have to be progressively louder.
Not that you'll believe any of it, but notice how you are the pretty much in the minority here on not believing Koreans are loud. Either everyone here is delusional about it ... or YOU are. Which is more likely? |
I never said they weren't loud, only that some of the more ridiculous claims about their loudness, and some of the expectations about where things should be quiet are ridiculous. Koreans ARE NOT winding up and slamming doors or deliberately stomping around to make noise for the sake of noise. They may not be careful about being quiet, but they aren't purposefully trying to be as loud as possible, well except for the Bongo trucks and politicians.
And not all Koreans are loud, I know LOTS of quiet Koreans. Lots of introverted people here, just as there are lots of quiet Americans.
But again- Being aware of one's own noise is often one of the hardest things to do. I know plenty of NETs who yell-talk as well. They aren't being deliberately rude or inconsiderate, they just have strong voices. And guess what? Our culture too, encourages people to have strong commanding voices. Look at how "strong" characters and leaders talk in the movies, on TV, in sports, and politics.
I don't think they pale at all. I think a lot of why they seem louder is culture shock and the same reason Koreans think foreigners are loud when speaking English. You just aren't attuned to things. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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(1) "Need to defend Korea"...What about a "need to attack Korea", which seems just as prevalent and reflexive in posters, and has the added stench of being aggressive and insulting. Why is there not the same rigor applied to those individuals?..
(2) Anyways, what the heck am I writing here? A mea culpa? The point is I've discussed the break with other posters, I've wanted to do it, I just moved to the big city and a new job, so now is as good a time as any. Give me a day or two to wind down and I'll give some serious thought to retiring this old bag of wind account.
(3) But before you cheer, I do ask- look inside yourselves and consider the way you look at Korea and the people here and whether it is truly accurate and whether the manner you do so is truly the right one. Stop the bigotry. |
I just wanted to respond to a few points you raised here so I took the liberty of editing your post.
1. I agree with this. I'd also like to point out that there are numerous threads bashing Korea, yet I have yet to see a thread explicitly created for the purpose of praising Korea. It is of course possible that I've missed it but if not that says something about each side (bashers vs apologists)
2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.
3. Agreed.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
[
(1) "Need to defend Korea"...What about a "need to attack Korea", which seems just as prevalent and reflexive in posters, and has the added stench of being aggressive and insulting. Why is there not the same rigor applied to those individuals?..
(2) Anyways, what the heck am I writing here? A mea culpa? The point is I've discussed the break with other posters, I've wanted to do it, I just moved to the big city and a new job, so now is as good a time as any. Give me a day or two to wind down and I'll give some serious thought to retiring this old bag of wind account.
(3) But before you cheer, I do ask- look inside yourselves and consider the way you look at Korea and the people here and whether it is truly accurate and whether the manner you do so is truly the right one. Stop the bigotry. |
I just wanted to respond to a few points you raised here..so I took the liberty of editing your post.
1. I agree with this. I'd also like to point out that there are numerous threads bashing Korea...yet I have yet to see a thread explicitly created for the purpose of praising Korea. It is of course possible that I've missed it...but if not that says something about each side (bashers vs apologists)
2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.
3. Agreed. |
There have been threads here along the lines of what do you like about Korea or best things about Korea. Maybe not outright praise, but positive in intention.
I think the noise laws are a good thing. I know they won't be strongly enforced, but it does send a message about respecting your neighbors. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
[
(1) "Need to defend Korea"...What about a "need to attack Korea", which seems just as prevalent and reflexive in posters, and has the added stench of being aggressive and insulting. Why is there not the same rigor applied to those individuals?..
(2) Anyways, what the heck am I writing here? A mea culpa? The point is I've discussed the break with other posters, I've wanted to do it, I just moved to the big city and a new job, so now is as good a time as any. Give me a day or two to wind down and I'll give some serious thought to retiring this old bag of wind account.
(3) But before you cheer, I do ask- look inside yourselves and consider the way you look at Korea and the people here and whether it is truly accurate and whether the manner you do so is truly the right one. Stop the bigotry. |
I just wanted to respond to a few points you raised here..so I took the liberty of editing your post.
1. I agree with this. I'd also like to point out that there are numerous threads bashing Korea...yet I have yet to see a thread explicitly created for the purpose of praising Korea. It is of course possible that I've missed it...but if not that says something about each side (bashers vs apologists)
2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.
3. Agreed. |
There have been threads here along the lines of what do you like about Korea or best things about Korea. Maybe not outright praise, but positive in intention.
I think the noise laws are a good thing. I know they won't be strongly enforced, but it does send a message about respecting your neighbors. |
Yes but much fewer than the bashing side. And while a number of the bashing threads veer into outright wholesale bashing of the country and the local populace...I've yet to see a "positive" thread veer that far off the track.
As for the noise laws I think we are mostly in agreement but over time I think enforcement will slowly strengthen.
| Quote: |
| Noise complaints from residents of apartment complexes have skyrocketed, with 7,021 cases in 2012, nearly 20 times more than the previous year, according to the South Korean Ministry of Environment |
A nearly TWENTY-FOLD increase over the past year. It would appear that Koreans are starting to become more vocal. Certainly not the "sheeple" that certain posters delight in painting them as. They are getting fed up and now that there are laws in place they can actually get something done about it.
It is however to be hoped that it doesn't go as far as the Mr.Kim in this article went.
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2013/02/18/south-korean-man-allegedly-kills-noisy-neighbors/ |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
Koreans aren't any louder than any other nationality, ...
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We can't say that with any certainty.
Some nationalities must be louder on average than others, regardless of population density, we've just got to face that, and I suspect Koreans rank somewhere near the top of that heap.
If they can be ranked for test scores, why not loudness? (Granted that would be a much harder study to perform, especially objectively.)
Population density and poor acoustics is part of the equation, but not ALL of it. And there would be more to the equation than actual decibels measured. It would have to be type, times, frequency of noise that would make a difference.
I've visited and lived in similarly populated areas in other countries and Korea still seems louder overall.
I stayed for a month in the busiest downtown tourist/business strip area in Buenos Aires. It would be equivalent to staying on the main strip of Insadong in terms of pedestrian traffic. It was LOUD, with tango shows, street concerts, drunks, parties, construction, and street vendors. My bedroom was single pane glass and only on the third floor above all the din. In terms of overall noise at any given hour, it was still way better than many of the Korean apartments I've lived in. In Korea, the constant yell-talking, stomping, and door slamming alone makes apartment living seem a lot worse than other loud places I've lived. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Russia and Ireland need to step up their game. They're about to end up like Nebraska and Notre Dame in college football. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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You peasants need to get an apartment on the top floor like me.  |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| EZE wrote: |
| And yes, I know it's the pot calling the kettle black for an American to say Koreans talk loudly. |
Not necessarily. If anything, it makes it even more meaningful. You know there's something to it when even the loud ones can complain about people louder than them. |
Or it could just be that they don't judge others the same as they judge themselves and believe themselves to be better than they actually are. Surely that's impossible. |
Blah, blah... or it COULD be that one group IS ACTUALLY louder than the other.
By almost any measure or comparison I'm confident Korea and Koreans rank very high in terms of noise level.
But hey, if you don't trust an American's opinion on it, let's throw in any other groups/nationalities to weigh in as well, even other Asians. I'm confident they would still rank Korea and Koreans very high in terms of noise levels.
As far as Americans being noisy, I generally agree. But America is a diverse place; you can definitely say some groups/kinds of Americans are louder than others. And yet on average they pale in comparison to Koreans in terms of being noisy. Americans can be very noisy at certain times and there is a huge range of manners. Koreans are noisy almost all the time. Yell-talking is pretty much the norm and it starts with the kids and never stops. And that's just one example but it sets the tone for everything have to be progressively louder.
Not that you'll believe any of it, but notice how you are the pretty much in the minority here on not believing Koreans are loud. Either everyone here is delusional about it ... or YOU are. Which is more likely? |
I never said they weren't loud, only that some of the more ridiculous claims about their loudness, and some of the expectations about where things should be quiet are ridiculous. Koreans ARE NOT winding up and slamming doors or deliberately stomping around to make noise for the sake of noise. They may not be careful about being quiet, but they aren't purposefully trying to be as loud as possible, well except for the Bongo trucks and politicians.
And not all Koreans are loud, I know LOTS of quiet Koreans. Lots of introverted people here, just as there are lots of quiet Americans.
But again- Being aware of one's own noise is often one of the hardest things to do. I know plenty of NETs who yell-talk as well. They aren't being deliberately rude or inconsiderate, they just have strong voices. And guess what? Our culture too, encourages people to have strong commanding voices. Look at how "strong" characters and leaders talk in the movies, on TV, in sports, and politics.
I don't think they pale at all. I think a lot of why they seem louder is culture shock and the same reason Koreans think foreigners are loud when speaking English. You just aren't attuned to things. |
You don't know what I'm attuned to what I'm not. I've become relatively desensitized to the noise here and can still call it noisy.
Regarding the yell talking: it's not about a "strong" voice, it's about being as loud as possible. Yell talking is simply the norm here and I've never seen it the same anywhere else. They learn it as kids and it stays with them. They are encouraged to be noisy by the others around them and the environment itself. Being noisy can be a cultural trait.
And then let's throw pitch into the equation as well. The kids and females here can deliver some of the loudest, most intense, high pitched whines and screams I've ever heard, and they belt them out non-stop during interactions. You go to a play ground or university hallway and you'd think people are being skinned alive or on a roller coaster ride. Nope, just expressing themselves the main way they know how. Being noisy!
The same noise in most countries would be met with a: "What the heck is the matter here? Why the intense screams? A fight? An accident?" But in Korea.... Nope, just business as usual. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
| You peasants need to get an apartment on the top floor like me. |
Yup, we're stuck in our downstairs hovels why you enjoy your penthouse with view. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I think a lot of why they seem louder is culture shock and the same reason Koreans think foreigners are loud when speaking English. You just aren't attuned to things. |
Then why do the Japanese seem so much quieter than Americans or anyone else? Why do the Vietnamese, the French, the Czechs, the Singaporeans, the Belgians, the Turks, the Dutch, the Germans, the Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Syrians, and even the Chinese seem quieter than the Americans? The Spanish-speaking population in the USA (and it's very sizable in the South) seems much quieter than the English-speaking population.
I don't think the Koreans are louder than Americans overall, per capita, since we play our electronics very loudly, but in terms of speaking voices, they are the loudest I have been around. And that's saying something considering how loudmouthed the English-speaking population of North America is. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
[
(1) "Need to defend Korea"...What about a "need to attack Korea", which seems just as prevalent and reflexive in posters, and has the added stench of being aggressive and insulting. Why is there not the same rigor applied to those individuals?..
(2) Anyways, what the heck am I writing here? A mea culpa? The point is I've discussed the break with other posters, I've wanted to do it, I just moved to the big city and a new job, so now is as good a time as any. Give me a day or two to wind down and I'll give some serious thought to retiring this old bag of wind account.
(3) But before you cheer, I do ask- look inside yourselves and consider the way you look at Korea and the people here and whether it is truly accurate and whether the manner you do so is truly the right one. Stop the bigotry. |
I just wanted to respond to a few points you raised here..so I took the liberty of editing your post.
1. I agree with this. I'd also like to point out that there are numerous threads bashing Korea...yet I have yet to see a thread explicitly created for the purpose of praising Korea. It is of course possible that I've missed it...but if not that says something about each side (bashers vs apologists)
2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.
3. Agreed. |
There have been threads here along the lines of what do you like about Korea or best things about Korea. Maybe not outright praise, but positive in intention.
I think the noise laws are a good thing. I know they won't be strongly enforced, but it does send a message about respecting your neighbors. |
Yes but much fewer than the bashing side.
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So what? Is there a quota system going on here?
Anyway the imbalance should tell you something: there is likely cause for some complaints/bashing or we wouldn't be seeing it so much. I'd argue that what most of what you'd call "bashing" is observation... and observations don't always show the positive side.
Also, one thing I've noticed with a lot of long-termers/lifers/apologists here... is that they often have the SAME complaints as everyone else, but bottle them up or feel guilty about them... then try to shame others when they try to express a complaint. Sound familiar?
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Noise complaints from residents of apartment complexes have skyrocketed, with 7,021 cases in 2012, nearly 20 times more than the previous year, according to the South Korean Ministry of Environment |
A nearly TWENTY-FOLD increase over the past year. It would appear that Koreans are starting to become more vocal. Certainly not the "sheeple" that certain posters delight in painting them as. They are getting fed up and now that there are laws in place they can actually get something done about it.
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So the locals are complaining about the noise too now? Excellent! Thanks for proving our point that it's noisy here.
But... why not criticize the locals for complaining too? Or are the noise complaints suddenly legit when they start to complain about the same thing? Heck, there have been MURDERS over stomping here. Talk about "over-reacting".
Where's Steelrails on this? Let me guess: another double standard /free pass when it comes to Koreans doing anything that could be criticized. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
[
(1) "Need to defend Korea"...What about a "need to attack Korea", which seems just as prevalent and reflexive in posters, and has the added stench of being aggressive and insulting. Why is there not the same rigor applied to those individuals?..
(2) Anyways, what the heck am I writing here? A mea culpa? The point is I've discussed the break with other posters, I've wanted to do it, I just moved to the big city and a new job, so now is as good a time as any. Give me a day or two to wind down and I'll give some serious thought to retiring this old bag of wind account.
(3) But before you cheer, I do ask- look inside yourselves and consider the way you look at Korea and the people here and whether it is truly accurate and whether the manner you do so is truly the right one. Stop the bigotry. |
I just wanted to respond to a few points you raised here..so I took the liberty of editing your post.
1. I agree with this. I'd also like to point out that there are numerous threads bashing Korea...yet I have yet to see a thread explicitly created for the purpose of praising Korea. It is of course possible that I've missed it...but if not that says something about each side (bashers vs apologists)
2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.
3. Agreed. |
There have been threads here along the lines of what do you like about Korea or best things about Korea. Maybe not outright praise, but positive in intention.
I think the noise laws are a good thing. I know they won't be strongly enforced, but it does send a message about respecting your neighbors. |
Yes but much fewer than the bashing side.
|
So what? Is there a quota system going on here?
Anyway the imbalance should tell you something: there is likely cause for some complaints/bashing or we wouldn't be seeing it so much. I'd argue that what most of what you'd call "bashing" is observation... and observations don't always show the positive side.
Also, one thing I've noticed with a lot of long-termers/lifers/apologists here... is that they often have the SAME complaints as everyone else, but bottle them up or feel guilty about them... then try to shame others when they try to express a complaint. Sound familiar?
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Noise complaints from residents of apartment complexes have skyrocketed, with 7,021 cases in 2012, nearly 20 times more than the previous year, according to the South Korean Ministry of Environment |
A nearly TWENTY-FOLD increase over the past year. It would appear that Koreans are starting to become more vocal. Certainly not the "sheeple" that certain posters delight in painting them as. They are getting fed up and now that there are laws in place they can actually get something done about it.
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So the locals are complaining about the noise too now? Excellent! Thanks for proving our point that it's noisy here.
But... why not criticize the locals for complaining too? Or are the noise complaints suddenly legit when they start to complain about the same thing? Heck, there have been MURDERS over stomping here. Talk about "over-reacting".
Where's Steelrails on this? Let me guess: another double standard /free pass when it comes to Koreans doing anything that could be criticized. |
To be fair, hes gotten a lot of flack recently and is probably being a little more tactful in his response - maybe just leave him be...
But good points about the other, it does seem that people are more ready to accept criticism when the local decide its a problem (except my gf). |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| EZE wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| I think a lot of why they seem louder is culture shock and the same reason Koreans think foreigners are loud when speaking English. You just aren't attuned to things. |
Then why do the Japanese seem so much quieter than Americans or anyone else? Why do the Vietnamese, the French, the Czechs, the Singaporeans, the Belgians, the Turks, the Dutch, the Germans, the Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Syrians, and even the Chinese seem quieter than the Americans? The Spanish-speaking population in the USA (and it's very sizable in the South) seems much quieter than the English-speaking population.
I don't think the Koreans are louder than Americans overall, per capita, since we play our electronics very loudly, but in terms of speaking voices, they are the loudest I have been around. And that's saying something considering how loudmouthed the English-speaking population of North America is. |
Bingo!
Can ANYONE refute this?
(Although I'm not sure the Chinese are quieter than the average American... certainly they give us a run for our money! And certainly the Korean door-slamming and foot stomping can give any stereo a run for its money. Our whole apartment shakes from stomping and door slamming, and also there are kids outside screaming bloody murder most of the day. Do you know how loud I'd have to turn up the stereo to start to drown that out? I'd be almost impossible unless I put in extra subwoofers.) |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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I once found myself on Fox News' website. The stories were of course biased and the comments shocking, even knowing what I was getting into. Did I start arguments with every poster there? Did I launch a 5 year attempt to reinvent Fox News? No. I just never went back.
So I guess my question to SR and UM is, why are you here if you think this site is so negative and full of haters and racists? Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to log on? Of course you have every right to be here, but whenever anyone questions your motives you just repeat the company line, "This site is so negative!" Fine, we get that. But you're still not answering the question.
Why are you here?
When someone dares mention something that can be construed as even the slight bit negative about Korea, certain posters will jump all over them and tell them to get out. "It's not worth being so unhappy!" they'll scream, like they're just trying to help out the guy. But then, we have to ask, why are you on this site if it apparently enrages you and makes you so unhappy? There are dozens of sites for expats in Korea. Why are you here?
You say that every post is negative. Ok, that's not even close to true, but fine let's accept that as fact. You're a positive person. So what the frak are you doing on a site that has so many negative posts? A Yankee fan doesn't spend his day reading a Red Sox blog. So again, what the heck are such upstanding positive enlightened people like you doing on such a terrible negative bigoted site like this?
No one denies there are complainers and bigots and idiots that post here (though not to the extent that you like to believe). But if they offend and bother you so much, why do you stay? You'll say it's because you deserve to have this site more than them, and while that's true in theory, it doesn't really work in practice. I wish I could scroll down and get the band's album name in the youtube comments without sifting through racist attacks and other inane posts. But life is unfair. I don't start an argument with every idiot poster on youtube, I just move on with my life.
You guys never answer this question, which leads many of us to see you as delusional apologists who define your identity by believing you "understand" Korea more than anyone else. You in fact don't hate the stupid comments here, they actually validate your sense of superiority. That's why you keep coming back. It's like people who watch trashy reality TV. It confirms that you're better than "those" people. That's why you use the language you do. Everyone who disagrees with you is a "hater" and "racist" and "loser" because you're NOT those things. And everyone who disagrees with you is the same. There are no degrees of other people. I say I find Korea louder than my home country and I'm just as 'bad' as the guy who uses racist slurs. Which of course makes you infinitely superior to both of us, right?
So guys, just come clean. You're not here because you like to argue or just want to get the facts out or are standing up for morality. You're here to feel better about yourself and have to make every thread about YOU. Only you know when you're being loud. Only you can relate to the Korea experience. Only you understand cultural bias. Only you can recognize hypocrisy. Only you really 'get it'. And you come here to remind yourself of that every opportunity you get.
Someone had to say it. |
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