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New noise laws in Korea - from today
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
atwood wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
[

(1) "Need to defend Korea"...What about a "need to attack Korea", which seems just as prevalent and reflexive in posters, and has the added stench of being aggressive and insulting. Why is there not the same rigor applied to those individuals?..


(2) Anyways, what the heck am I writing here? A mea culpa? The point is I've discussed the break with other posters, I've wanted to do it, I just moved to the big city and a new job, so now is as good a time as any. Give me a day or two to wind down and I'll give some serious thought to retiring this old bag of wind account.

(3) But before you cheer, I do ask- look inside yourselves and consider the way you look at Korea and the people here and whether it is truly accurate and whether the manner you do so is truly the right one. Stop the bigotry.


I just wanted to respond to a few points you raised here..so I took the liberty of editing your post.

1. I agree with this. I'd also like to point out that there are numerous threads bashing Korea...yet I have yet to see a thread explicitly created for the purpose of praising Korea. It is of course possible that I've missed it...but if not that says something about each side (bashers vs apologists)


2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.

3. Agreed.

There have been threads here along the lines of what do you like about Korea or best things about Korea. Maybe not outright praise, but positive in intention.

I think the noise laws are a good thing. I know they won't be strongly enforced, but it does send a message about respecting your neighbors.


Yes but much fewer than the bashing side. And while a number of the bashing threads veer into outright wholesale bashing of the country and the local populace...I've yet to see a "positive" thread veer that far off the track.

As for the noise laws I think we are mostly in agreement but over time I think enforcement will slowly strengthen.


Quote:
Noise complaints from residents of apartment complexes have skyrocketed, with 7,021 cases in 2012, nearly 20 times more than the previous year, according to the South Korean Ministry of Environment



A nearly TWENTY-FOLD increase over the past year. It would appear that Koreans are starting to become more vocal. Certainly not the "sheeple" that certain posters delight in painting them as. They are getting fed up and now that there are laws in place they can actually get something done about it.

It is however to be hoped that it doesn't go as far as the Mr.Kim in this article went.

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2013/02/18/south-korean-man-allegedly-kills-noisy-neighbors/

But why are they becoming more vocal? Is it that people are just fed up or is it that neighbors and their children are getting so obnoxious they can no longer be ignored?
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Mix1



Joined: 08 May 2007

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

le-paul wrote:

To be fair, hes gotten a lot of flack recently and is probably being a little more tactful in his response ...

That's some wishful thinking right there. Wink
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. BlackCat wrote:
I once found myself on Fox News' website. The stories were of course biased and the comments shocking, even knowing what I was getting into. Did I start arguments with every poster there? Did I launch a 5 year attempt to reinvent Fox News? No. I just never went back.

So I guess my question to SR and UM is, why are you here if you think this site is so negative and full of haters and racists? Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to log on? Of course you have every right to be here, but whenever anyone questions your motives you just repeat the company line, "This site is so negative!" Fine, we get that. But you're still not answering the question.

Why are you here?

When someone dares mention something that can be construed as even the slight bit negative about Korea, certain posters will jump all over them and tell them to get out. "It's not worth being so unhappy!" they'll scream, like they're just trying to help out the guy. But then, we have to ask, why are you on this site if it apparently enrages you and makes you so unhappy? There are dozens of sites for expats in Korea. Why are you here?

You say that every post is negative. Ok, that's not even close to true, but fine let's accept that as fact. You're a positive person. So what the frak are you doing on a site that has so many negative posts? A Yankee fan doesn't spend his day reading a Red Sox blog. So again, what the heck are such upstanding positive enlightened people like you doing on such a terrible negative bigoted site like this?

No one denies there are complainers and bigots and idiots that post here (though not to the extent that you like to believe). But if they offend and bother you so much, why do you stay? You'll say it's because you deserve to have this site more than them, and while that's true in theory, it doesn't really work in practice. I wish I could scroll down and get the band's album name in the youtube comments without sifting through racist attacks and other inane posts. But life is unfair. I don't start an argument with every idiot poster on youtube, I just move on with my life.

You guys never answer this question, which leads many of us to see you as delusional apologists who define your identity by believing you "understand" Korea more than anyone else. You in fact don't hate the stupid comments here, they actually validate your sense of superiority. That's why you keep coming back. It's like people who watch trashy reality TV. It confirms that you're better than "those" people. That's why you use the language you do. Everyone who disagrees with you is a "hater" and "racist" and "loser" because you're NOT those things. And everyone who disagrees with you is the same. There are no degrees of other people. I say I find Korea louder than my home country and I'm just as 'bad' as the guy who uses racist slurs. Which of course makes you infinitely superior to both of us, right?

So guys, just come clean. You're not here because you like to argue or just want to get the facts out or are standing up for morality. You're here to feel better about yourself and have to make every thread about YOU. Only you know when you're being loud. Only you can relate to the Korea experience. Only you understand cultural bias. Only you can recognize hypocrisy. Only you really 'get it'. And you come here to remind yourself of that every opportunity you get.

Someone had to say it.

OK, but since, unless you're answering a direct question that has been asked, isn't everyone here posting about their experience and themselves, your "YOU"?

Though definitely some do put their experience into perspective better.
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Mix1



Joined: 08 May 2007

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

When someone dares mention something that can be construed as even the slight bit negative about Korea, certain posters will jump all over them and tell them to get out. "It's not worth being so unhappy!" they'll scream, like they're just trying to help out the guy. But then, we have to ask, why are you on this site if it apparently enrages you and makes you so unhappy? There are dozens of sites for expats in Korea. Why are you here?

They'd encounter the same issues (or much worse) on almost any other site. They can't handle that people don't see Korea the same way they do, and any perceived "criticism" of the place burns them up, so they take action. They are the Don Quixotes of Korean expat internet land so to speak. But the "complaints" keep on because there is plenty to get irritated about here as a foreigner, and lots of entertaining weird things to comment on. To simply blindly praise the place means to bury your head in the sand, or be completely isolated from most of Korean life (which they seem to be... living in the sticks).

That's not to say Korea can't be a good place to live and work, but most people don't write or vent about POSITIVE things. When's the last time you read a book where nothing bad ever happened to the characters?

Who wants to read a post like: "Korea is soooo rad! I walked to work and nobody tried to mug me, and soooo many kids said "Hello!" to me and cheerfully laughed. Then I went into a bakery and the lady gave me a plastic fork with my purchase and said "service!" They are sooooo kind! Then at work my boss told me I needed to lose some weight, but guess what? He's right! It was very polite of him to say that! They are soooo honest here! Korea is awesome! Wheeeeee!"


Last edited by Mix1 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atwood wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
atwood wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
[

(1) "Need to defend Korea"...What about a "need to attack Korea", which seems just as prevalent and reflexive in posters, and has the added stench of being aggressive and insulting. Why is there not the same rigor applied to those individuals?..


(2) Anyways, what the heck am I writing here? A mea culpa? The point is I've discussed the break with other posters, I've wanted to do it, I just moved to the big city and a new job, so now is as good a time as any. Give me a day or two to wind down and I'll give some serious thought to retiring this old bag of wind account.

(3) But before you cheer, I do ask- look inside yourselves and consider the way you look at Korea and the people here and whether it is truly accurate and whether the manner you do so is truly the right one. Stop the bigotry.


I just wanted to respond to a few points you raised here..so I took the liberty of editing your post.

1. I agree with this. I'd also like to point out that there are numerous threads bashing Korea...yet I have yet to see a thread explicitly created for the purpose of praising Korea. It is of course possible that I've missed it...but if not that says something about each side (bashers vs apologists)


2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.

3. Agreed.

There have been threads here along the lines of what do you like about Korea or best things about Korea. Maybe not outright praise, but positive in intention.

I think the noise laws are a good thing. I know they won't be strongly enforced, but it does send a message about respecting your neighbors.


Yes but much fewer than the bashing side. And while a number of the bashing threads veer into outright wholesale bashing of the country and the local populace...I've yet to see a "positive" thread veer that far off the track.

As for the noise laws I think we are mostly in agreement but over time I think enforcement will slowly strengthen.


Quote:
Noise complaints from residents of apartment complexes have skyrocketed, with 7,021 cases in 2012, nearly 20 times more than the previous year, according to the South Korean Ministry of Environment



A nearly TWENTY-FOLD increase over the past year. It would appear that Koreans are starting to become more vocal. Certainly not the "sheeple" that certain posters delight in painting them as. They are getting fed up and now that there are laws in place they can actually get something done about it.

It is however to be hoped that it doesn't go as far as the Mr.Kim in this article went.

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2013/02/18/south-korean-man-allegedly-kills-noisy-neighbors/

But why are they becoming more vocal? Is it that people are just fed up or is it that neighbors and their children are getting so obnoxious they can no longer be ignored?


I think youre onto something there.

You can only go so far ignoring people, especially kids. Its getting to a point now where other people are having to point out to parents how annoying their children are being. The whole saving face thing is being challenged.

Id be interested to know (honestly) from mothers, how they are fairing treating their little princes and princesses with kid gloves everyday. They must surely be realising its not working out?

I remember last year a mother and daughter (teenage) living next door to me. I swear to god, that young girl must have been beating her mother every time she tried to control her or criticise her. If not, the physical fights must have been very evenly matched...
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mix1 wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
atwood wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
[

(1) "Need to defend Korea"...What about a "need to attack Korea", which seems just as prevalent and reflexive in posters, and has the added stench of being aggressive and insulting. Why is there not the same rigor applied to those individuals?..


(2) Anyways, what the heck am I writing here? A mea culpa? The point is I've discussed the break with other posters, I've wanted to do it, I just moved to the big city and a new job, so now is as good a time as any. Give me a day or two to wind down and I'll give some serious thought to retiring this old bag of wind account.

(3) But before you cheer, I do ask- look inside yourselves and consider the way you look at Korea and the people here and whether it is truly accurate and whether the manner you do so is truly the right one. Stop the bigotry.


I just wanted to respond to a few points you raised here..so I took the liberty of editing your post.

1. I agree with this. I'd also like to point out that there are numerous threads bashing Korea...yet I have yet to see a thread explicitly created for the purpose of praising Korea. It is of course possible that I've missed it...but if not that says something about each side (bashers vs apologists)


2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.

3. Agreed.

There have been threads here along the lines of what do you like about Korea or best things about Korea. Maybe not outright praise, but positive in intention.

I think the noise laws are a good thing. I know they won't be strongly enforced, but it does send a message about respecting your neighbors.


Yes but much fewer than the bashing side.

So what? Is there a quota system going on here?
Anyway the imbalance should tell you something: there is likely cause for some complaints/bashing or we wouldn't be seeing it so much. I'd argue that what most of what you'd call "bashing" is observation... and observations don't always show the positive side.

Also, one thing I've noticed with a lot of long-termers/lifers/apologists here... is that they often have the SAME complaints as everyone else, but bottle them up or feel guilty about them... then try to shame others when they try to express a complaint. Sound familiar?

Quote:

Quote:
Noise complaints from residents of apartment complexes have skyrocketed, with 7,021 cases in 2012, nearly 20 times more than the previous year, according to the South Korean Ministry of Environment



A nearly TWENTY-FOLD increase over the past year. It would appear that Koreans are starting to become more vocal. Certainly not the "sheeple" that certain posters delight in painting them as. They are getting fed up and now that there are laws in place they can actually get something done about it.

So the locals are complaining about the noise too now? Excellent! Thanks for proving our point that it's noisy here.

But... why not criticize the locals for complaining too? Or are the noise complaints suddenly legit when they start to complain about the same thing? Heck, there have been MURDERS over stomping here. Talk about "over-reacting".
Where's Steelrails on this? Let me guess: another double standard /free pass when it comes to Koreans doing anything that could be criticized.


Please point out where I (not Mr. Steelrails) but I (TheUrbanMyth) said it was NOT noisy here. Certainly it is and Mr. Steelrails admitted as much. Whether it is as noisy in other countries is debatable but that's not what I'm pointing out.

There's a difference between complaining and racism...it's generally when those on the first side veer over to the other is when I speak up. Heck I've complained about Korea now and then myself. Complaining is fine...racism and xenophobia cloaked as complaining not so much.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. BlackCat wrote:
I once found myself on Fox News' website. The stories were of course biased and the comments shocking, even knowing what I was getting into. Did I start arguments with every poster there? Did I launch a 5 year attempt to reinvent Fox News? No. I just never went back.

So I guess my question to SR and UM is, why are you here if you think this site is so negative and full of haters and racists? Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to log on? Of course you have every right to be here, but whenever anyone questions your motives you just repeat the company line, "This site is so negative!" Fine, we get that. But you're still not answering the question.

Why are you here?




I'll certainly answer that question...just as soon as you tell me where I said that this "site is so negative and full of haters and racists."

You made that claim first...so prove it. If you can't then withdraw the claim and then I'll gladly answer your question.

Deal?
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Mr. BlackCat



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Mr. BlackCat wrote:
I once found myself on Fox News' website. The stories were of course biased and the comments shocking, even knowing what I was getting into. Did I start arguments with every poster there? Did I launch a 5 year attempt to reinvent Fox News? No. I just never went back.

So I guess my question to SR and UM is, why are you here if you think this site is so negative and full of haters and racists? Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to log on? Of course you have every right to be here, but whenever anyone questions your motives you just repeat the company line, "This site is so negative!" Fine, we get that. But you're still not answering the question.

Why are you here?




I'll certainly answer that question...just as soon as you tell me where I said that this "site is so negative and full of haters and racists."

You made that claim first...so prove it. If you can't then withdraw the claim and then I'll gladly answer your question.

Deal?


No. No deal. I remember why I left this site for months again. And why all the reasonable people who used to post here are gone, too. So, thanks for that.
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Zyzyfer



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.


I would imagine the people who have only recently started giving Steelrails grief, myself included, do not wish to see the guy quit posting on the board.

All I have been trying to offer him is constructive criticism regarding his posting style. He is his own worst enemy when it comes to getting his points out there and under consideration. I hardly expect him to revert to posting one-liners or anything of that nature, but this is a message board at the end of the day. It's one step up from an IRC chat, and two steps up from article Comment Hells or a Facebook Fight. Brevity has a lot going for it, as does conciseness.

The last straw was that thread on the Canada/Korea currency exchange rate. That thread normally would barely even make it to page 2, and be a very dry read that would only interest Canadians sending money to Canada.

I don't want Steelrails to leave, but he's had it cranked up to 11 recently. I hope he sticks around and fights the good fight in a meaningful manner. It's honestly probably me who needs the break, considering I normally lurk for the most part.

Mr. BlackCat wrote:
No. No deal. I remember why I left this site for months again. And why all the reasonable people who used to post here are gone, too. So, thanks for that.


That sucks. I once tried offering some constructive criticism to TUM, suggesting not being so literal about everything people post. I can see how that suggestion was taken...
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zyzyfer wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
2. Not much to say about this...it's certainly your choice but I for one hope you don't leave.


I would imagine the people who have only recently started giving Steelrails grief, myself included, do not wish to see the guy quit posting on the board.

All I have been trying to offer him is constructive criticism regarding his posting style. He is his own worst enemy when it comes to getting his points out there and under consideration. I hardly expect him to revert to posting one-liners or anything of that nature, but this is a message board at the end of the day. It's one step up from an IRC chat, and two steps up from article Comment Hells or a Facebook Fight. Brevity has a lot going for it, as does conciseness.

The last straw was that thread on the Canada/Korea currency exchange rate. That thread normally would barely even make it to page 2, and be a very dry read that would only interest Canadians sending money to Canada.

I don't want Steelrails to leave, but he's had it cranked up to 11 recently. I hope he sticks around and fights the good fight in a meaningful manner. It's honestly probably me who needs the break, considering I normally lurk for the most part.

Mr. BlackCat wrote:
No. No deal. I remember why I left this site for months again. And why all the reasonable people who used to post here are gone, too. So, thanks for that.


That sucks. I once tried offering some constructive criticism to TUM, suggesting not being so literal about everything people post. I can see how that suggestion was taken...

There's an old saying, "Places change, people don't."

I admit to liking to stir the pot (and I meant my apology to you regarding the exchange rate thread) but it's the lack of common sense that becomes so galling. You give one good example, literalness. Another is posting as if what is really just your (often obviously uninformed or predisposed) opinion as the God's truth. That is really irritating, especially when it's about something as inane as matching beverages to food: "You have to drink Dr. Pepper at Taco Bell."

And how about a word limit on posts?
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Zyzyfer



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atwood wrote:
There's an old saying, "Places change, people don't."

I admit to liking to stir the pot (and I meant my apology to you regarding the exchange rate thread) but it's the lack of common sense that becomes so galling. You give one good example, literalness. Another is posting as if what is really just your (often obviously uninformed or predisposed) opinion as the God's truth. That is really irritating, especially when it's about something as inane as matching beverages to food: "You have to drink Dr. Pepper at Taco Bell."

And how about a word limit on posts?


I couldn't work out whether it was sincere or poking fun at me, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Was surprised you two both sort of bowed out of the thread. That thread's OP posted again recently and it was so, sooooo dry (not knocking OP!), just as predicted.
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zyzyfer wrote:
atwood wrote:
There's an old saying, "Places change, people don't."

I admit to liking to stir the pot (and I meant my apology to you regarding the exchange rate thread) but it's the lack of common sense that becomes so galling. You give one good example, literalness. Another is posting as if what is really just your (often obviously uninformed or predisposed) opinion as the God's truth. That is really irritating, especially when it's about something as inane as matching beverages to food: "You have to drink Dr. Pepper at Taco Bell."

And how about a word limit on posts?


I couldn't work out whether it was sincere or poking fun at me, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Was surprised you two both sort of bowed out of the thread. That thread's OP posted again recently and it was so, sooooo dry (not knocking OP!), just as predicted.

As Mr. Hand said to Spicola, "I think I've made my point."
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd argue that what most of what you'd call "bashing" is observation... and observations don't always show the positive side.


Here is the difference between observation and "bashing"- Korea has one of the highest rates of traffic accidents in the OECD. This might be because of a lack of sufficient driver education, poor enforcement of traffic regulations, traffic density or a rushed society?

contrast that with-

Koreans are krazy klown drivers. No regard for safety or others. Clueless peasants in suits.

That's not observation or even criticism. That is bigotry and hatred.

Even intermediate ones like "Koreans are the worst drivers in the world. Do they have any regard for safety? Do they even consider other people? Back home people would NEVER drive like this."

Of course what follows is that an "apologist" brings up examples/stats from back home and is then attacked for bringing up back home.So the locals are complaining about the noise too now? Excellent! Thanks for proving our point that it's noisy here.

Quote:
So the locals are complaining about the noise too now? Excellent! Thanks for proving our point that it's noisy here.


And here we have an example of the poor quality of thinking that takes place.

The logic here is that if a local complains about the noise, that means the country/people are noisy. Therefore the logical conclusion must be that if someone in the USA/England/France complains about noise, ergo they must be noisy people as well.

Quote:
Heck, there have been MURDERS over stomping here. Talk about "over-reacting".


Again, simplistic grade-school level conclusion. Take an isolated incident and declare it a trend. I'm pretty sure if you glean the murders of the US, Canada, England, France, and even Sweden, you'll find a case where some guy went nuts and killed his neighbors for too much noise or because their dog took a crap on his lawn or some other insignificant reason.

Of course since those people have the same racial appearance/similar culture, they are given a pass as "crazy" or "a lone nut". Take someone from a different race or culture? Surely it must be because of their culture that they did this. No chance of them being a lone nut.

This is the bigotry we're standing against. BASIC FAILS OF LOGIC, REASONING, AND CRITICAL THINKING.

Quote:
why are you here if you think this site is so negative and full of haters and racists?


false

Quote:
You say that every post is negative.


false

Quote:
But if they offend and bother you so much, why do you stay?


Shouldn't they go and we get to stay?

If apologists bother you so much, why don't you leave?

Quote:
Everyone who disagrees with you is a "hater" and "racist" and "loser" because you're NOT those things


Wrong. As I mentioned as a great example, look at Fox. Who writes in a very educated manner, is patient enough to use distinctions and avoids simplistic analysis. You know someone who actually absorbed all that stuff about scientific method, logic, reasoning, rationality, problem solving, and critical thinking.

Quote:
You're not here because you like to argue or just want to get the facts out or are standing up for morality. You're here to feel better about yourself


I think the same could be said about the bashers. They need to bash Koreans to make themselves feel better. At least apologists are sticking up for other people.

Quote:
Who wants to read a post like: "Korea is soooo rad! I walked to work and nobody tried to mug me, and soooo many kids said "Hello!" to me and cheerfully laughed. Then I went into a bakery and the lady gave me a plastic fork with my purchase and said "service!" They are sooooo kind! Then at work my boss told me I needed to lose some weight, but guess what? He's right! It was very polite of him to say that! They are soooo honest here! Korea is awesome! Wheeeeee!"


Yeah, why would I want to read a post or story about positive experiences between black and white people, when I could just read about how black people suck. Rolling Eyes

It doesn't have to be Simon and Martina stuff, but it doesn't have to be a racist rant either.

Quote:
No. No deal. I remember why I left this site for months again. And why all the reasonable people who used to post here are gone, too. So, thanks for that.


Dude, BC, you made some pretty strong and absolute claims, at least about me. "Every post is negative"??? That's a strong statement that needs to be backed up.

Now, TUM may or may not be playing "the literal game", and if he is, then I understand not wanting to have any part of it, but at least for something like you wrote about me, you have to make sure to back up a claim like that.
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Who's Your Daddy?



Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... since brevity is the soul of wit
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief: your noble son is mad.
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byrddogs



Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The board would take a hit if 'rails suddenly quit posting. Has he ever been a thread starting poster or has it always been a jump in there on other's threads and drive them to pages upon pages thing?
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