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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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 Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| Lazio wrote: |
| Vianca wrote: |
| I believe the captain is a psychopath. |
That is what my wife said.
Apparently they took him to a hospital where his biggest concern was drying his wet manwon bills. |
He is probably in shock and about to undergo a massive psychological meltdown. |
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MedellinHeel
Joined: 16 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:39 am Post subject: |
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How does this even happen in the modern age?
2 hours to sink.
1 light boat deployed
smh |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
Just an awful story. Heart wrenching. Just imagine for a moment, in your mind's eye, the horrible scene under the capsized ferry. Think of the panicked calls tp parents and those parents being unable to help their children. Noone with a soul, whatever their issues with Korea and Koreans, can fail to be moved by this tragedy.
This does not mean, however, that we cannot analyze it and think of possible explanations. The media is speculating, and every Korean with a pulse is speculating. There is no reason why we on Dave's can't speculate too, although of course it must be kept within the bounds of decency. The reality is that Korean cultural norms may well have played a part is this tragedy. I don't think that's an outrageous thing to say. We know how vehicles are operated here, the lack of a safety culture, cutting corners, the bballi bballi phenomenon, lack of respect for posted rules, sleep deprivation, and confucianism. They may not have played a central role, but they certainly may have. It's only human to wonder how this could happen. At all times, however, we must be aware of the horror we are witnessing.
As for the captain, I'm no fan of the death penalty but I'd make an exception in his case. Also, why did the rest of the crew (with the exception of the one wonderful, brave woman) follow the captain onto the life raft? Was the young lady the only one whose sense of responsibility, and basic human decency, was greater than her impulse to obey the captain...and flee? Given what we know about the Asiana crash (that it was indeed cultural factors at play), and what we personally observe about Korean culture on a daily basis, informed guesses are not beyond the pale. But we must be careful.
Anyway, it's extremely sad. Their families will never be the same. |
There are some opinions on this thread verging on the lunatic. A death penalty for the captain? Cowardly and criminally negligent tho he may be, this kind of baying for blood is distasteful and extreme. Unfortunately Korean culture does tend to have this lynch mob mentality when something goes wrong because enough of it goes on among the mainstream.
I remember the 'Crazy Cow' demonstrations and the hatred that accompanied a lot of them, I remember friends showing me photos of bloodsthirsty paintings that an art teach in a private school encouraged his children to do in response to the issue. It reminded me of the 'kill the Jew' artwork I've seen in a few countries in the Middle East. Done by children with the encouragement of their teachers.
But it is disgusting how the heirarchy on the ship abandoned the passengers. Yes you can blame Korean culture to a reasonable extent. There is no tradition of women and children first in East Asian culture - and I can't see how anybody could be surprised by or deny the role the male/senior heirarchy played in this current tragedy. The social pecking order brings about a society where initiative cannot be taken as a rule and this makes tragedies much worse.
The point about the orderly Japanese might be true but there also is a strong influence of how important males are. Just take a bus in any Japanese city and see how when you stand up in a crowded one so a frail old lady can sit down - old men nearby will usually sit down without thinking that maybe you are not doing it for them.
Koreans needn't feel bad about their culture's selfishness and contrast it with the so called Japanese selflessness. I had a friend who experienced the Kobe earthquake and she was disgusted by the apartheid that existed at shelters post earthquake. Foreigners were told to find a different place, of course the implication was these things were for the Japanese.
From what seems to be known, there were enough lifebelts for everybody but many older Koreans grabbed two or more. Again, this points to the Korean culture as well as the other problem of people not being able to swim. But to balance this out, you have to understand that in emergencies and disasters it is chaotic. People don't think clearly and there is a fine balance between thinking of others and putting your own life in danger. However, the heirarchy are disgraceful here - their job was to do what they could for as long as possible.
I saw photos of the surviving school teachers kneeling in apology to parents - that was not their fault and all it does is reinforce the privileges of the heirarchy responsible. Likewise the suicide of the teacher is sad but a typical culturally conditioned but inept response. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| MedellinHeel wrote: |
How does this even happen in the modern age?
2 hours to sink.
1 light boat deployed
smh |
Because there aren't legions of rescue boats on standby 24-7 around the coast. It's like the 9/11 truthers wondering why it took so long to dispatch fighter aircraft. Rescue boats and intercepting aircraft aren't a double-click away and don't rise up like a swarm of bees.
I think so far, the one thing we can place blame on, regardless of all the speculation that is swirling, is that the captain did not stay on board to oversee an orderly evacuation. This is not a Western vs. Confucian/Korean thing as the Costa Concordia captain fled in much the same fashion and many a Japanese commander in WWII went down with his ship. Further, if there is ever a Korean naval officer that Koreans follow, adore, and try to live up to, it is Yi Soon Shin. He certainly was the type of commander that would fight to the last and care for his men on board.
As I said, technically he is only guilty of negligent homicide (if indeed he was negligent), but there is something utterly reprehensible about a captain fleeing in such a manner that makes me want 'military justice'. Intellectually I feel one way, but emotionally I feel another.
Last edited by Steelrails on Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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uklathemock
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone else think it's insensitive how they're are announcing dead students over the loudspeaker of a p.a. system in the gym? You're not playing bingo here.... |
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Hokie21
Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| MedellinHeel wrote: |
How does this even happen in the modern age?
2 hours to sink.
1 light boat deployed
smh |
Because there aren't legions of rescue boats on standby 24-7 around the coast. It's like the 9/11 truthers wondering why it took so long to dispatch fighter aircraft. Rescue boats and intercepting aircraft aren't a double-click away and don't rise up like a swarm of bees. |
Again you miss the point. He is talking about how it took the boat over 2 hours to sink yet the crew only deployed a few of the on-board livesaving boats.
This seems to be because either the crew were not trained in evacuation drills and/or they were too busy saving their own skin and fleeing the ship.
This has nothing to do with the lack of "legions of rescue boats around the coast" being called in to help. Stop making excuses. |
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Hokie21
Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
The captain of the Korean government vessel that aided the removal of the captain and crew is also at fault.
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Why would the people on the rescue vessel be at fault? Do you really expect them to refuse a guy trying to get off a sinking boat?
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Really, you really can not understand?
Why is the driver of a bank robbery getaway car at fault? |
A rescue ship taking people off a sinking ship and a car driver having pre-determined knowledge of a bank robbery are totally different.
In a rescue you don't go refusing people the right to board, you just grab the first reaching hand.
And that Air Force One movie scenario. Unlikely a situation like that will ever happen, if it's even possible. |
Of course a situation like that will never happen. Its not the point.
You are the one who is justifying the removal of the captain and crew.
I am providing the airliner scenario to illustrate the wrongness of removing the captain and crew members. Both scenarios are equally wrong.
If I was on a rescue boat I would certainly know that the people in the helm are the crew members. Anybody with an understanding of maritime procedures would.
The rescue boat people would need to be in an alternate universe to claim that they are ignorant of the facts. |
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Hokie21
Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| guavashake wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
The captain of the Korean government vessel that aided the removal of the captain and crew is also at fault.
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Why would the people on the rescue vessel be at fault? Do you really expect them to refuse a guy trying to get off a sinking boat?
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Really, you really can not understand?
Why is the driver of a bank robbery getaway car at fault? |
A rescue ship taking people off a sinking ship and a car driver having pre-determined knowledge of a bank robbery are totally different.
In a rescue you don't go refusing people the right to board, you just grab the first reaching hand.
And that Air Force One movie scenario. Unlikely a situation like that will ever happen, if it's even possible. |
Of course a situation like that will never happen. Its not the point.
You are the one who is justifying the removal of the captain and crew.
I am providing the airliner scenario to illustrate the wrongness of removing the captain and crew members. Both scenarios are equally wrong.
If I was on a rescue boat I would certainly know that the people in the helm are the crew members. Anybody with an understanding of maritime procedures would.
The rescue boat people would need to be in an alternate universe to claim that they are ignorant of the facts. |
Don't be ridiculous. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
In the aftermath of the Fukishima disaster my wife was taken aback by the orderly way the Japanese people conducted themselves. She said to me "Korean people would never be like that. They would all be too selfish".
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My gf said exactly the same thing. Basically saying that if the same thing happened in Korea, the death toll would have been much much higher due to the inefficient way it would be "handled".
Let's hope this disaster is at least wake up call that better training and disaster planning is needed. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| many a Japanese commander in WWII went down with his ship. |
The captain of The Sewol isn't Japanese. The Japanese don't jump line. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Hokie21 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| MedellinHeel wrote: |
How does this even happen in the modern age?
2 hours to sink.
1 light boat deployed
smh |
Because there aren't legions of rescue boats on standby 24-7 around the coast. It's like the 9/11 truthers wondering why it took so long to dispatch fighter aircraft. Rescue boats and intercepting aircraft aren't a double-click away and don't rise up like a swarm of bees. |
Again you miss the point. He is talking about how it took the boat over 2 hours to sink yet the crew only deployed a few of the on-board livesaving boats.
This seems to be because either the crew were not trained in evacuation drills and/or they were too busy saving their own skin and fleeing the ship.
This has nothing to do with the lack of "legions of rescue boats around the coast" being called in to help. Stop making excuses. |
Sorry, I misread the post. He said "one light boat", which I took to mean one light rescue craft from the shore, not a LIFEboat. Don't bite my head off because the guy can't even properly write. |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
Just an awful story. Heart wrenching. Just imagine for a moment, in your mind's eye, the horrible scene under the capsized ferry. Think of the panicked calls tp parents and those parents being unable to help their children. Noone with a soul, whatever their issues with Korea and Koreans, can fail to be moved by this tragedy.
This does not mean, however, that we cannot analyze it and think of possible explanations. The media is speculating, and every Korean with a pulse is speculating. There is no reason why we on Dave's can't speculate too, although of course it must be kept within the bounds of decency. The reality is that Korean cultural norms may well have played a part is this tragedy. I don't think that's an outrageous thing to say. We know how vehicles are operated here, the lack of a safety culture, cutting corners, the bballi bballi phenomenon, lack of respect for posted rules, sleep deprivation, and confucianism. They may not have played a central role, but they certainly may have. It's only human to wonder how this could happen. At all times, however, we must be aware of the horror we are witnessing.
As for the captain, I'm no fan of the death penalty but I'd make an exception in his case. Also, why did the rest of the crew (with the exception of the one wonderful, brave woman) follow the captain onto the life raft? Was the young lady the only one whose sense of responsibility, and basic human decency, was greater than her impulse to obey the captain...and flee? Given what we know about the Asiana crash (that it was indeed cultural factors at play), and what we personally observe about Korean culture on a daily basis, informed guesses are not beyond the pale. But we must be careful.
Anyway, it's extremely sad. Their families will never be the same. |
There are some opinions on this thread verging on the lunatic. A death penalty for the captain? Cowardly and criminally negligent tho he may be, this kind of baying for blood is distasteful and extreme. Unfortunately Korean culture does tend to have this lynch mob mentality when something goes wrong because enough of it goes on among the mainstream.
I remember the 'Crazy Cow' demonstrations and the hatred that accompanied a lot of them, I remember friends showing me photos of bloodsthirsty paintings that an art teach in a private school encouraged his children to do in response to the issue. It reminded me of the 'kill the Jew' artwork I've seen in a few countries in the Middle East. Done by children with the encouragement of their teachers.
But it is disgusting how the heirarchy on the ship abandoned the passengers. Yes you can blame Korean culture to a reasonable extent. There is no tradition of women and children first in East Asian culture - and I can't see how anybody could be surprised by or deny the role the male/senior heirarchy played in this current tragedy. The social pecking order brings about a society where initiative cannot be taken as a rule and this makes tragedies much worse.
The point about the orderly Japanese might be true but there also is a strong influence of how important males are. Just take a bus in any Japanese city and see how when you stand up in a crowded one so a frail old lady can sit down - old men nearby will usually sit down without thinking that maybe you are not doing it for them.
Koreans needn't feel bad about their culture's selfishness and contrast it with the so called Japanese selflessness. I had a friend who experienced the Kobe earthquake and she was disgusted by the apartheid that existed at shelters post earthquake. Foreigners were told to find a different place, of course the implication was these things were for the Japanese.
From what seems to be known, there were enough lifebelts for everybody but many older Koreans grabbed two or more. Again, this points to the Korean culture as well as the other problem of people not being able to swim. But to balance this out, you have to understand that in emergencies and disasters it is chaotic. People don't think clearly and there is a fine balance between thinking of others and putting your own life in danger. However, the heirarchy are disgraceful here - their job was to do what they could for as long as possible.
I saw photos of the surviving school teachers kneeling in apology to parents - that was not their fault and all it does is reinforce the privileges of the heirarchy responsible. Likewise the suicide of the teacher is sad but a typical culturally conditioned but inept response. |
I have to disagree with you about giving the death penalty to the captain. It was his negligence that cause the lose of life to 28 people so far. If you hit and kill a pedestrian while driving you are still going to be charged with involuntary man slaughter because of your negligence, at least in the States, since you weren't paying attention to the road.
There isn't a women and children first culture? I would say that goes for the whole world actually. I would argue that "women and children first" is a modern times idea. Even though, the captain and crew had no sense of duty to their passengers? Would a captain of a naval vessel save himself at the expense of his crew? I highly doubt that, and it makes me think that this captain wasn't properly trained at all.
About Japanese people, I must say I have never seen an elderly Japanese man take a seat away from an elderly Japanese woman in the time I lived there. However, their treatment of foreigners by the government is about the same as Korea's. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Hokie21 wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
The captain of the Korean government vessel that aided the removal of the captain and crew is also at fault.
|
Why would the people on the rescue vessel be at fault? Do you really expect them to refuse a guy trying to get off a sinking boat?
|
Really, you really can not understand?
Why is the driver of a bank robbery getaway car at fault? |
A rescue ship taking people off a sinking ship and a car driver having pre-determined knowledge of a bank robbery are totally different.
In a rescue you don't go refusing people the right to board, you just grab the first reaching hand.
And that Air Force One movie scenario. Unlikely a situation like that will ever happen, if it's even possible. |
Of course a situation like that will never happen. Its not the point.
You are the one who is justifying the removal of the captain and crew.
I am providing the airliner scenario to illustrate the wrongness of removing the captain and crew members. Both scenarios are equally wrong.
If I was on a rescue boat I would certainly know that the people in the helm are the crew members. Anybody with an understanding of maritime procedures would.
The rescue boat people would need to be in an alternate universe to claim that they are ignorant of the facts. |
Don't be ridiculous. |
There are millions of ignorant people in the world who think many things are ridiculous. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
There are some opinions on this thread verging on the lunatic. A death penalty for the captain? Cowardly and criminally negligent tho he may be, this kind of baying for blood is distasteful and extreme. Unfortunately Korean culture does tend to have this lynch mob mentality when something goes wrong because enough of it goes on among the mainstream.
I remember the 'Crazy Cow' demonstrations and the hatred that accompanied a lot of them, I remember friends showing me photos of bloodsthirsty paintings that an art teach in a private school encouraged his children to do in response to the issue. It reminded me of the 'kill the Jew' artwork I've seen in a few countries in the Middle East. Done by children with the encouragement of their teachers.
But it is disgusting how the heirarchy on the ship abandoned the passengers. Yes you can blame Korean culture to a reasonable extent. There is no tradition of women and children first in East Asian culture - and I can't see how anybody could be surprised by or deny the role the male/senior heirarchy played in this current tragedy. The social pecking order brings about a society where initiative cannot be taken as a rule and this makes tragedies much worse.
The point about the orderly Japanese might be true but there also is a strong influence of how important males are. Just take a bus in any Japanese city and see how when you stand up in a crowded one so a frail old lady can sit down - old men nearby will usually sit down without thinking that maybe you are not doing it for them.
Koreans needn't feel bad about their culture's selfishness and contrast it with the so called Japanese selflessness. I had a friend who experienced the Kobe earthquake and she was disgusted by the apartheid that existed at shelters post earthquake. Foreigners were told to find a different place, of course the implication was these things were for the Japanese.
From what seems to be known, there were enough lifebelts for everybody but many older Koreans grabbed two or more. Again, this points to the Korean culture as well as the other problem of people not being able to swim. But to balance this out, you have to understand that in emergencies and disasters it is chaotic. People don't think clearly and there is a fine balance between thinking of others and putting your own life in danger. However, the heirarchy are disgraceful here - their job was to do what they could for as long as possible.
I saw photos of the surviving school teachers kneeling in apology to parents - that was not their fault and all it does is reinforce the privileges of the heirarchy responsible. Likewise the suicide of the teacher is sad but a typical culturally conditioned but inept response. |
Well, the reason there is part of me that wants the death penalty is the nature of his abandoning ship and the fact that while a civilian, he is still a person of rank and has duties. Of course the rational part of me understands that at worst he is guilty of criminal negligence and that is not a capital crime.
I think it is often a mistake to blame Korean culture, because that label is frequently applied haphazardly and even two contradicting events can be called Korean culture via creative writing. Also many incidents are often exaggerated and blown out of proportion by the media. There is no evidence that women and children were denied evacuation in favor of the old and in fact there are stories coming out of students and people showing extreme care and self-sacrifice for the children on board and helping women out. Was that part of Korean culture? You talk about a "pecking order and people not taking initiative", what are you expecting? Passengers and crew running up and screaming at that captain? No one in any culture does that. Plenty of Americans during 9/11 followed instructions to stay in the building and wait as per orders. Was that American or Korean culture? If no one had listened to the captain and had run around like a madhouse and caused a weight-shift that killed many more people, you would say that not following instructions (like in driving) is Korean culture. So if Koreans do follow instructions and die its because of Korean culture, and if they don't follow instructions and die, its because of Korean culture. This is why the "culture" argument is always such a poor one. Its because there is no objective and regularly applied standard.
As for the Koreans grabbing an extra life preserver. We have no way to verify the extent of this or if its even true. For one thing, this is often the type of thing where ONE elderly person is seen with it on and then through the rumor and gossip mill, gets blown up into every elderly person grabbing 5 life preservers, while kicking students out of the way and the media hypes it up. Also, this ship was at about 50% of its capacity, meaning there were likely plenty of life preservers available and giving an elderly person, who likely can't swim and may be handicapped, the feeling of security by giving them an extra is not some great cultural crime.
While the kneeling part is perhaps the one surefire thing you can truly chalk up to Korean culture, the idea that teachers would be tearfully apologetic to parents if their students died during a school event is a pretty universal reaction and survivor's guilt suicide is not a strictly Korean phenomenon, hence why we have a word in the English lexicon called "survivor's guilt." It always baffles me when people point to something being a Korean cultural phenomenon when a term for it exists in the English language. If it truly were a Korean cultural phenomenon, it would logically follow that there would be no word for it in English that is used to describe behavior in English speakers. |
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