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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
I don't know how to swim, I never had swimming lessons in school in Canada. Are swimming lesson supposed to be normal?
And even if I had lessons, I don't think I would be able to swim in an ocean with massive waves and undercurrents. I would have probably avoided large bodies of water as much as I can, as I have I done so far. It's kind of like French language instruction in Canada, sure we 'learn' it, but if we don't use it it's kind of useless. |
I had swimming lessons in Canada - which school did you go to?!
It is true that ocean waves can be quite massive - then again, ocean was relatively quiet during the sinking. |
Somewhere in Alberta near Calgary. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
Here's what I want to know. Is the organization that issued the safety certificate for the ship being investigated? Shouldn't ships carrying passengers be constructed in such a manner that a tilt can be corrected? Also, would that same organization be responsible for ensuring the crew were adequately trained? If not, who was responsible for that? The ferry company itself? Perhaps, but surely the crew had to be certified. There must be a course one takes before working on a ship. They can't just hire someone off the street. Whose job was it to ensure the crew was competently trained, and why didn't they do it?
There's an awful lot of people who need to be held accountable here.
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Exactly. It could also be a systemic failure of not being strict or thorough enough regarding training/certification. Those types of questions were raised with the airline crashes as well, and one trainer wrote a critique that the Korean pilot training program was not a very serious training program and/or the Korean pilots didn't take it very seriously, doing too much of their training hours on autopilot, having them watch BS entertainment movies instead of training movies, etc.
Related to training, how about the whole idea of "MT" ... "Membership Training" camps Koreans love to do? There is little to no training there... they are just excuses for drinking parties and bonding. Could that be an issue here too? That training just isn't looked at in a serious way?
The captain has to take some blame, but they have to look at the entire issue as well, including rescue ops, communications, wait times, and every single thing that was potentially botched and why. The problem with putting ALL the blame on the captain (not that he doesn't deserve the bulk of it) is that they may just blame ONE guy and say: case closed, that's the end of it... when in reality the captain could be the product of a system that allowed him to be there in the first place. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| radish kimchi wrote: |
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| They were players in an overarching culture of a lack of safety training and preparedness. |
Well, we live in a world where inventions replace common sense. The maps and compasses used during Columbus' time were not good enough inventions. Someone had to invent sonar.
However, it doesn't matter what these inventions can do. It doesn't matter how fancy your car is and you can find out when your car's engine is malfunctioning because you have the latest computer technology installed on your "boat".
We can build roads with signs. We can add traffic lights at intersections. We can drive on the same road with other drivers. We can put pit stops along the way.
These are all doable on sea as well. Two or more boats can go along the same route. You should be able to mark the route in a way the driver can see out to navigate. To have to wonder if something is underwater or even if cargo was not properly placed/secure on the boat by underpaid workers is opening yourself up for disasters like this (pull the cargo instead, http://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/tow1.jpg and kites? http://inhabitat.com/transportation-tuesday-wind-powered-cargo-ship-takes-sail/mv-beluga-kite-sail-wind-power-sail-ship-cargo-ship/ ).
The whole business of transporting people by boat needs to be revamped. Titanic wasn't enough? We need mini titanic episodes to get the crazy idea to mark territory instead of finding out where a driver should go? |
radish kimchi, do you smoke crack? |
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Mikejelai
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| One foot in the rice paddy, and one foot in the Chairman sedan (aka "farmers in suits")..... Just remember that Korea is a developing country, and all developing countries go through these learning curves... Even developed countries like the USA don't always get it right.... Remember when Little Bush was flying over New Orleans after Katrina a few years ago trying to figure out what to do?? |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:22 am Post subject: |
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There is another Korea forum which I am not a member of but I have read at times. It starts with expat. One of the posters there says he was told by a Korean friend/acquaintance that most of the ferry's lifeboats were for show - they could not be moved or used. That certainly could explain partly why the Captain and crew dithered, losing precious time.
As for the normalcy of the 3rd Mate getting practice at steering a ferry in the fog through waters with many rocks, I'd say the time to give a relatively inexperienced crew member experience is not on such a night. Various UK newspapers (sorry, no link) have reported hearing that it was considered a tricky and difficult navigation area and other vessels were warning about the fog.
The buck stops with the Captain. That poor young woman who steered the ship will also never be able to escape the mobs baying for vengeance. I personally am disturbed by a few of the posts on here calling for violence against the Captain even though the man is a coward. As for the joy expressed that the Vice Principal hung himself, that is also disturbing.
We have no idea of what he tried to do and delighting in suicide is disgusting. I think what he did was no reasonable response especially as he hanged himself near the gym where traumatised studensts, parents and members of the public were. But to be so callous about his death is not right. |
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radish kimchi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| radish kimchi, do you smoke crack? |
No, I use common sense. We only use GPS to get the quickest route when driving, but the roads are constant. We can't change them.
This is not the same with water. If I am smoking crack to come to this realization, then I wonder what other wonderful things I can think of under the influence.
I think however I simply don't blindly trust inanimate objects to tell me where to go. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| So, those in the Laconia incident who ignored advice and tried to paddle to the nearest shore were ignoring the advice of an idiot? |
Whose advice? The captain of the Laconia made sure the ship's women and children were on lifeboats, then went to his cabin and went down with the ship. That's the exact opposite of what the captain and crew of the Sewol did.
40% of the Laconia's passengers survived while only 36% of the Sewol's did. That is amazing considering the Laconia's crew and passengers had to deal with a lot of major issues the people on the Sewol didn't.
1. The Laconia was struck by a torpedo and the explosion was enormous. Nearly 1800 of the 2725 people on the Laconia were Italian POWs. As low men on the totem pole, they were riding on the part of the ship that was on the waterline, the area the torpedo struck. This would've instantly killed many of them.
2. A second torpedo hit the ship.
3. The Italians, being POWs, were locked in. Only around 400 managed to survive the torpedo blasts and also break out of their holding cells. As they were trying to get on lifeboats, some were shot by Polish guards and had to just jump into the water.
4. The blood attracted sharks and barracudas, which killed some of the passengers and POWs.
5. Big ships like the Laconia and the Titanic, when they sink, cause a big hole that pulls water into the abyss, which pulls everything within a certain diameter in. Some of the people who managed to make it off the ship were sucked into the hole as the Laconia sank.
6. Aerial bombardment. The same U-boat crew who sank the Laconia attempted to rescue hundreds of the survivors. While these survivors were on the U-boat, it was attacked by Allied aircraft, resulting in the death of many Laconia passengers, and destruction or damage to some of the lifeboats. The U-boat was damaged in the attack and had to abandon the Laconia survivors back to their remaining lifeboats.
7. The Laconia survivors were 1,000 miles from nowhere with no means of communication. The captain and crew had screwed the pooch by not having the lifeboats properly prepared with fishing nets and line, and water. Some died of dehydration.
The Laconia sank in 36 minutes. In that amount of time, the people who did survive were already in lifeboats and a safe distance from the ship. In 36 minutes, most passengers on the Sewol weren't even on the ship's deck. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: |
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A lot of these disaster situations are situations where an outcome one way or the other is not guaranteed. Sometimes someone might sound a premature evacuation. Sometimes its good to stay at the crash site and wait for rescue, other times it might be best to move and try and locate help. Sometimes you bail out. Sometimes you try and keep it together. |
You seem to be under the impression that there is no set protocol in a situation like the Sewol's. You are incorrect. The captain should have ordered all the kids to the muster stations. The reason he did not is because none of the crews have any safety training (I assume the captain had none as well)
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| No one has perfect information and the gift of hindsight. If there was a reasonable rationale at the time for the captain to delay evacuation and to restrict passenger movement, then he should not be pilloried for it. It may turn out that there wasn't, but there isn't enough information at present. |
The captain wasn't hemming and hawing over what to do; he had no idea what the EFF to do at all.
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Add on the fact that most were students, and thus he might not have the same confidence in their ability to swim, be steady on deck, and maintain calm and order, and one can see a rationale, though perhaps not the right one behind his actions. |
That's utterly ridiculous.
You're just doing whatever you can now to blindly defend this Captain. The reason you're spitting on Park Jiyoung's grave is that if this incident occurred in another country (another developed one), her death could have been avoided. The Costa Concordia had 32 fatalities out of 4500, the Queen of the north had 2 fatalities out of 100.
Keep on spitting SR.
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Well the captain seems pretty adamant, both from the transcripts during the sinking and from his statements afterward, that he wasn't prepared to abandon ship without other vessels there to pick up people. Unfortunately it seems his genuine care for the passengers at that time, suddenly abandoned him and he at the sight of a rescue vessel he got it in himself to scamper off ship.
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The transcripts do not contain any conversations with the Captain. From the articles I have read, it is the mate who is having those conversations |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:02 am Post subject: |
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I'm not comparing the whole of the Laconia incident, only that where people were told to wait for rescue in the lifeboats by the German U-Boat commander and some chose to do so and some chose not to. It's understandable why some didn't. Conditions, its an enemy captain, etc. etc. But it was the wrong thing to do. Simply reflexively saying you should run to safety is a poor decision.
Fortunately we have a timeline emerging of things. This is a partial transcript
Full one here-
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/18/world/asia/south-korea-ferry-transcript/index.html?iid=article_sidebar
8:48- The situation begins. Something causes the ship to dramatically turn to the right.
8:55- First distress call received by Jeju. They are informed "the ship is rolling right now".
8:56 "The ship rolled over a lot right now."
9:00 Jeju is informed that containers have fallen over. "It is impossible to move as the ship is tilted" they are told. Jeju tells Sewol to have people "put on life vests and be ready to abandon ship" Sewol responds again about the difficulty in movement.
9:07 Sewol tells Jindo Center that "We are sinking, please send the Coast Guard as soon as possible".
9:12-9:18 while in contact with Jindo, Sewol informs them on four separate occasions that it is impossible for passengers and crew to move and to deploy life boats or conduct an evacuation, repeating what had been said at 9:00. At this point the crew is hanging from the wall. Jindo is repeatedly requesting information about the situation and the Sewol emphasis with nearly every transmission about the impossibility of movement and the need to hurry.
9:23 Jindo Center tells the ship to broadcast that passengers should don life jackets and prepare for evacuation and that the nearest vessels ETA is 15 minutes. Sewol informs Jeju center that it is unable to broadcast an abandon ship notice.
9:24 Jindo Center directs the crew to send someone to inform the passengers to don life jackets and thick coats. Sewol responds with a query as to how soon the vessels will arrive. Jindo responds directly- "Dispatch the lift (life?) ring. Quickly!"
9:25 From Jindo center- "The captain should make decision to make people escape. We do not know the situation so captain make final decision on passengers' escape."
9:26 Sewol responds "That's not what I meant. If passengers escape, can they be immediately rescued?" Jindo responds that the rescue vessel should arrive in 10 minutes.
9:27 Jindo informs Sewol that a helicopter will arrive within 1 minute. The crew responds that a helicopter will not be enough.
9:37 Last transmission- Sewol reports that vessels have arrived, they cannot confirm the extent of flooding and that only passengers on the port side have escaped. List is reported at 60 degrees. In an apparent discrepancy, the ship says they sent out a broadcast.
==================================
From these, a few things can be gleaned. First, whatever happened was catastrophic and happened quickly. Within 7 minutes (8:55) the SOS was received (what time it was first broadcast is not clear). At which point the ship is said to be rolling. It seems the ship is starting to rapidly list. 1 minute later, at 8:56 the crew informs Jeju that movement is impossible. It is not clear whether this refers to people or the ship. By 9:00, 12 minutes after the incident began, it is unambiguously clear that movement within the vessel is impossible/extremely hazardous. It also indicates that there might have been the view that the order to abandon ship would not be given until the rescue vessels arrive, given that everyone would probably be tumbling and jumping into the sea.
For comparison's sake, this is about the same amount of time between the impacts of the two planes on the WTC.
There is a 5 minute gap from 9:00 to 9:05- What was happening then? Obviously, some attempt was being made to contact rescue vessels and notify authorities, but a 5 minute gap?
This is followed up by a 3 minute gap from 9:07-9:10 which immediately follows the announcement that the vessel is sinking. More questions.
Another 5 minute gap follows from 9:18 to 9:23.
Last, there's a 9 minute gap from 9:28-9:37 after the captain is told that the nearest vessel is 10 minutes away.
Other odd notes-
There might be some issue at 9:25 The crew seems to be trying to say, but not directly saying "Hey, aren't you listening? No one can move and if we abandon ship, everyone is going into that cold water. Are we going to have people to pick us up?"
9:28 "There are too many passengers. A helicopter may not be enough.' Understatement of the century.
And most importantly, there is that issue of the broadcast. At one point it is declared not to work and then the crew says that they sent out the broadcast. This is the key issue of the transcript. What happened there? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
The captain should have ordered all the kids to the muster stations. The reason he did not is because none of the crews have any safety training (I assume the captain had none as well)
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Really? None of the crew has ANY safety training?
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| The reason you're spitting on Park Jiyoung's grave is that if this incident occurred in another country (another developed one), her death could have been avoided. |
What the heck? Dude, chill. No one is spitting on anyone's grave. If you're going to throw that at me, I'm going to say that you're being a hypocrite by only selecting her to throw up the narrative of the "wicked Korean man" and that you are willfully ignoring the male crew members who did the exact same thing.
http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2988187&cloc=joongangdaily|home|newslist1
And again YOU ARE AN IDIOT if your analysis of survival in ship sinkings amounts to "two ships sank, one had a lot more people die. It's because of culture". You're not taking into account the radically different physical nature of the accidents. That's like me saying "Hey at least they aren't in America. In America they would have been lost with all hands because of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Must be because of American culture". How did you even graduate college with such shoddy reasoning and analytical skills?
Read the transcript. It becomes clear why there was such a loss of life, the sheer difficulty of an evacuation, and how rapidly the situation deteriorated.
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| The transcripts do not contain any conversations with the Captain. From the articles I have read, it is the mate who is having those conversations |
Yes, the captain is not the simultaneous helmsman, radio officer, lifeboat-deployer, and watch officer. He gives orders and information is relayed back to him. Apparently the peanut gallery out there thinks he should have been physically doing all of those things at the same time while also searching the ship for people and somehow coordinating the evacuation with the coast guard. That's not to excuse him for his hasty abandoning of the ship. Just, don't blame people for something that isn't wrong. |
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AfroBurrito
Joined: 19 Dec 2013
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:34 am Post subject: |
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This will blow holes in Steelrail's previously posted timeline
http://www.arirang.co.kr/News/News_View.asp?nseq=161239
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"Jeju Coast Guard called Danwon H.S. at 8:10 AM Wednesday"
And fresh speculations are rising as a personnel from Danwon Highschool claims that he or she received a phone call from the Jeju Coast Guard at around 8:10 a.m. on the day of the accident.
For the details, we now go to our Laah Hyun-kyung standing by at the news center.
Hyun-kyung, what is this about?
Daniel, the Gyeonggi-do Provincial Office of Education held a press briefing
earlier in the day.
It said the person received a call from someone who claimed to be from the Jeju Coast Guard. The caller asked for a phone number of a teacher that went on that field trip with more than 300 Danwon High School students, that they could reach saying they lost contact with the Sewol-ho ferry.
The time of the call is said to be around 8:10 a.m. Wednesday -- that's about 40 minutes before the Sewol-ho ferry is recorded to have first contacted the marine traffic service at its destination, Jeju Island.
With this development, questions about whether Jeju Coast Guard officials knew if there was something wrong with the ferry well in advance, are being raised.
If that is the case, it looks like Jeju officials might face heavy criticism for not taking emergency measures promptly.
An official investigation will determine that.
But the Jeju Coast Guard initially denies having made that call saying there is no reason for the Jeju Coast Guard to be involved since the ferry was sinking at an area that is controlled by the Coast Guard's West Regional Headquarters. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Really? None of the crew has ANY safety training? |
I will assume a good majority have not had any safety training. From the articles that have been printed so far, it is looking that way. If I am wrong, then so be it. If they had any safety training, then it hasn't really shown in this case.
Why don't you tell all those parents sitting in Jindo that the Captain did the right thing? Why don't you tell all those parents that Park Jiyoung's death was un-avoidable? Go and explain to the assembled masses that the captain did the right thing. To continue to defend this captain blows my mind. And this is entirely separate from the issue of Korean culture.
You are definitely misinterpreting my entire point. You seem to think that I am taking shots at Korean culture. That's not what I am doing. I said that Korean culture played a role in this. I didn't say Korean culture is "bad". Korean culture is why Korea is the 4th largest economy in Asia and the 11th largest in the world. But Korean culture comes into play for incidents like the daegu subway fire, the sampoong department store collapse and this sinking. |
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