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Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
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 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Who cares.... It's korea's problem and if i were in that ship as it was sinking, i would've been the first to jump the ship.
But my sympathy to dead and still missing...... |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| I have addressed the evidence. It's you, Cap't K, who are ignoring it. |
atwood, you haven't addressed crap. You haven't done anything to explain the physical nature of things.
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From the Korea Herald....
"As the investigation unfolds, more irregularities in the ship’s operations and the accounts told by the surviving crew have surfaced.
The claim that the situation had deteriorated to the point that crew members were unable to release lifeboats despite attempting to do so appears to have been false.
Despite such claims from crew members, photographs taken by the Coast Guard during the initial rescue efforts show a Coast Guard officer releasing two lifeboats into the sea."
3 or 4 more crew members were arrested today. Shocking that it turns out the crew has been lying to cover their backsides. |
I already addressed that. It's one thing for a single member of the Coast Guard who has boarded the deck recently to move about. It's quite another for 400 people to move and mass on deck. You do realize that with that kind of list, those 400 people would press up against each other and push each other over, right? Look at the degree of list. It's not like everyone would have had a handhold. That's like saying because a firefighter could get in and out of a burning building, everyone should be able to.
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Read the article again: http://www.aol.com/article/2014/04/20/delay-in-ferry-evacuation-puzzels-maritime-experts/20872295/
Allen said in an email that two things needed to be done simultaneously: "Keep trying to save the ship but mitigate the risk to loss of life by preparing the passengers to abandon ship."
There's a difference between evacuating the ship and preparing the passengers for evacuation, which needed to be done while (not after) they were trying to save the ship. Multitasking may have been too much to expect from the captain individually, but he had a crew. |
At that point, every member of the crew has to attend to their post and try and stabilize their posts. Becomes much more difficult with 400+ panicked people running through the ship.
I'm unsure if the captain gave an order to don lifejackets or not within his order to stay put. If he ordered them to stay put while donning life jackets, then that's irrelevant because people didn't drown from a lack of lifejackets, they drowned because they couldn't move and became trapped.
The captain had about 4 minutes to make the decision to evacuate before it became physically impossible. During this time he was moving from his cabin to the bridge, assessing the situation, waiting for people to report in, and trying to stabilize the ship. The ship had not reached the point of no return, and when it did, that happened within seconds. It was not self-evident that the need to even prepare to abandon ship was necessary during the 4 minutes they were attempting to stabilize.
In retrospect it is obviously the right decision, but at the time, it wasn't so obvious. Again I point out that what if during the stabilization procedure they had ordered people on deck and some had fallen off, or delayed the movement of crew around the ship and compounded the problem.
People are speaking of these decisions as though they are 100% certainties. They are not. Who knows how many times the captain has faced a similar situation? |
More blah, blah, blah. More idiotic conjecture. That no one is buying your story should tell you something about the bill of goods you're offering for sale.
Answer a simple question, if you can. Why do you consider it necessary to derail almost every thread you post on with long-winded off-the-mark opinions that are contrarian merely for the sake of being contrarian?
It's obvious to everyone that you're mistaken. Assuming you have a modicum of intellectual ability, you must realize it too, but argue on you must.
Your posts reflect someone who needs to take over and dominate any conversation he is engaged in.
The obvious answers are for you to find some other outlet or to seek therapy. Barring that, why don't you just start your own threads which everyone else of sound mind can ignore and refrain from highjacking threads.
Show some humanity! |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
The captain had about 4 minutes....
People are speaking of these decisions as though they are 100% certainties. |
I think this is the point people are trying to make to you.
The timeline you have repeated is not certain and there are conflicting reports. The whole 4 minute thing is not set in stone. I've seen timeline pictures in which the list wasn't so severe, beyond 4 minutes.
But you keep going back to that particular timeline.
Once an investigation is carried out fully there is going to be all sorts of information coming out that may completely change opinions. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| cabeza wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
The captain had about 4 minutes....
People are speaking of these decisions as though they are 100% certainties. |
I think this is the point people are trying to make to you.
The timeline you have repeated is not certain and there are conflicting reports. The whole 4 minute thing is not set in stone. I've seen timeline pictures in which the list wasn't so severe, beyond 4 minutes.
But you keep going back to that particular timeline.
Once an investigation is carried out fully there is going to be all sorts of information coming out that may completely change opinions. |
Oh, I agree that the timeline could change, but for now, that's the best record we have of events. The transcript (barring government conspiracy) is the best record we have of events on the ship as they took place. The phone call at 8:52 saying "the ship is sinking" coinciding with its 2nd dramatic turn is another crucial piece of evidence.
If there is additional evidence, not just "well he should have done this", present it. I presented it. I cited it. I posted a timeline and it showed a sequence of events. If someone has an additional timeline to post, post it! If someone can explain how there would be no danger in having a bunch of people on deck while the ship is listing on cargo containers are potentially falling, then post it. Unfortunately posters are saying "he should have had them on deck" without addressing the dangers that such an action might entail.
Here's what I say- The captain could have decided to order people on deck. He could have decided not to. Based on what information was likely available to him at the time and the situation at hand, either choice entailed risks and had benefits. The fact that he chose one and not the other is not sufficient evidence of negligence. He had incomplete information and may have decided that one procedure was more risky at the time than the other. This has been my point all along- it was to show the potential each choice had for danger and that it was not an easy choice.
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| That no one is buying your story should tell you something about the bill of goods you're offering for sale. |
One poster has so far. I notice the calls for lifeboat deployment have quieted since I posted that as it is becoming fairly clear that deploying lifeboats was an impossibility within the sequence of events. Before everyone was saying how they had plenty of time to get people off and move about. That's not being tossed about so much anymore.
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| Why do you consider it necessary to derail almost every thread you post on with long-winded off-the-mark opinions that are contrarian merely for the sake of being contrarian? |
Why do you consider it necessary to turn every post I make into your personal dislike of me?
I am on topic. I am posting the actual timeline and evidence. A lot of other people are just spouting off with a bunch of unfounded accusations and not-fully-thought-out opinions.
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It's obvious to everyone that you're mistaken. Assuming you have a modicum of intellectual ability, you must realize it too, but argue on you must.
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So, my posting of the timeline of events and drawing the conclusion that something dramatic happened at about four minutes in using two separate pieces of evidence, something no one else did on this thread, is me 'derailing' and being 'unnecessarily contrarian'? That's the evidence. If there is something else out there that contradicts that version of events, post it.
If your version of events is so good atwood, why aren't you posting timelines and details of the ships journey and physical evidence and the like? Why instead are you attacking me personally?
So far we've had an alleged mystery phone call, that most people have dismissed as fake, and we've had the photo during the evacuation, the limitations of which I have spelled out. Please atwood, bring some evidence. Rational, scientific evidence. |
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Savant
Joined: 25 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Is it just me or is Steelrails trying to build up the professional and competent actions of the ferry captain in this disaster? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| cabeza wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
The captain had about 4 minutes....
People are speaking of these decisions as though they are 100% certainties. |
I think this is the point people are trying to make to you.
The timeline you have repeated is not certain and there are conflicting reports. The whole 4 minute thing is not set in stone. I've seen timeline pictures in which the list wasn't so severe, beyond 4 minutes.
But you keep going back to that particular timeline.
Once an investigation is carried out fully there is going to be all sorts of information coming out that may completely change opinions. |
Oh, I agree that the timeline could change, but for now, that's the best record we have of events. The transcript (barring government conspiracy) is the best record we have of events on the ship as they took place. The phone call at 8:52 saying "the ship is sinking" coinciding with its 2nd dramatic turn is another crucial piece of evidence.
If there is additional evidence, not just "well he should have done this", present it. I presented it. I cited it. I posted a timeline and it showed a sequence of events. If someone has an additional timeline to post, post it! If someone can explain how there would be no danger in having a bunch of people on deck while the ship is listing on cargo containers are potentially falling, then post it. Unfortunately posters are saying "he should have had them on deck" without addressing the dangers that such an action might entail.
Here's what I say- The captain could have decided to order people on deck. He could have decided not to. Based on what information was likely available to him at the time and the situation at hand, either choice entailed risks and had benefits. The fact that he chose one and not the other is not sufficient evidence of negligence. He had incomplete information and may have decided that one procedure was more risky at the time than the other. This has been my point all along- it was to show the potential each choice had for danger and that it was not an easy choice.
| Quote: |
| That no one is buying your story should tell you something about the bill of goods you're offering for sale. |
One poster has so far. I notice the calls for lifeboat deployment have quieted since I posted that as it is becoming fairly clear that deploying lifeboats was an impossibility within the sequence of events. Before everyone was saying how they had plenty of time to get people off and move about. That's not being tossed about so much anymore.
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| Why do you consider it necessary to derail almost every thread you post on with long-winded off-the-mark opinions that are contrarian merely for the sake of being contrarian? |
Why do you consider it necessary to turn every post I make into your personal dislike of me?
I am on topic. I am posting the actual timeline and evidence. A lot of other people are just spouting off with a bunch of unfounded accusations and not-fully-thought-out opinions.
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It's obvious to everyone that you're mistaken. Assuming you have a modicum of intellectual ability, you must realize it too, but argue on you must.
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So, my posting of the timeline of events and drawing the conclusion that something dramatic happened at about four minutes in using two separate pieces of evidence, something no one else did on this thread, is me 'derailing' and being 'unnecessarily contrarian'? That's the evidence. If there is something else out there that contradicts that version of events, post it.
If your version of events is so good atwood, why aren't you posting timelines and details of the ships journey and physical evidence and the like? Why instead are you attacking me personally?
So far we've had an alleged mystery phone call, that most people have dismissed as fake, and we've had the photo during the evacuation, the limitations of which I have spelled out. Please atwood, bring some evidence. Rational, scientific evidence. |
You are what you post. My comments are based on that.
Again, he should have had them on deck. That's self-evident, and no matter how much conjecture you post, it still holds. That was the rational course of action.
I have no version of events. Neither do you. I posted very early on that it was best to wait until all the facts are in. But you, self-proclaimed expert, sail away on your half-baked timelines and fantasies.
What I'm attacking is your continual efforts to muddy the waters and your refusal to accept the obvious.
As for personal dislike, does anyone like egotistical blowhard self-proclaimed know-it-alls? They do say there is a special someone for everyone, so maybe.
Moreover, IMO your posts suggest someone who'd rather dither about than act and that if you were in command of the ferry, we'd have witnessed very similar results. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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SR
You get an A+ for good intentions (not jumping to conclusions, waiting for facts, etc etc)
But you get a D for execution.
When the captain goes through the public court system, he deserves a fair trial, based on facts.
But in the court of public opinion, we have more than enough information to pass judgement.
Yes: The sh!t hit the fan in a very short amount of time.
Yes: Even the best captain in the world probably couldn't save this ship.
but....
with all the information we have now received regarding the captain, it is just unconscionable to give him the benefit of the doubt.
To even entertain the notion that the announcement to stay in the rooms was a calculated decision by the captain to save the ship is laughable. It's obvious to almost everybody that the order was given because the captain/people in charge had no clue what happened or what to do.
Park Jiyoung spent the last hour of her life trying to save as many kids as possible. If the captain had done the right thing (what all the experts are pointing out), there is a good chance Park Jiyoung wouldn't have been scrambling to pass out life jackets. All the kids would have been prepared to evacuate, with life jackets on, near the decks and not sitting in their rooms.
Park Jiyoung died because of an idiot captain. Park Jiyoung did not die because her captain "made a decision he thought was right". The captain is an idiot who gave the wrong orders and just didn't know what to do. We have established the following:
1. He abandoned ship instead of assisting passengers
2. He passed himself off as a passenger to the rescue boat
3. He was drying off his money after being rescued
Taking all that into account, I can't believe anybody can even try to defend the Captain's initial actions.
The fact that someone like Park Jiyoung (and other people on the ship who sacrificed their lives) died due to the idiot captain is just a tragedy. What's even worse is the fact that you are trying to defend the Captain's idiocy with "what if's" and "conjecture". If the captain didn't show that he was such an idiot after being rescued, maybe you would have a point.
In your blind quest to defend the honour of Korean culture, you have foolishly and inadvertently sided with a man who is more or less a murderer.
There is nothing wrong with Korean culture. But aspects of the culture probably played a role in this.
The bali bali culture (boat was delayed due to weather)
The culture of seniority (was he a captain only due to tenure?)
The culture of saving face
The lax safety regulations (the crew didn't know what to do. the ship was certified safe when maybe it wasn't)
Did all of this play into the sinking? who the Eff knows. Some or all or none could have applied. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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South Korea Ferry Evacuation Delay Puzzles Experts
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/20/korean-ferry-evacuation_n_5182433.html
Oh Yong-seok, a 57-year-old helmsman, said he and four crew members worked from nearby boats to smash windows on the sinking ferry, dragging six passengers stuck in cabins to safety.
He said he and his colleagues remained at sea trying to help until an official who appeared to be from the coast guard asked them to head to land.
As I said on p. 5, the Korean coast guard is also at fault. |
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sweetrevenge
Joined: 24 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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1. He abandoned ship instead of assisting passengers
2. He passed himself off as a passenger to the rescue boat
3. He was drying off his money after being rescued |
I don't wanna take sides in all this fiasco, but its hard to take your post seriously when you list a fault of the captain was drying his wet money on his hospital bed. Really? Cuz thats what got people killed? We should focus on the topic on hand and discuss why the captain did not prepare to evacuate the boat when that should be standard procedure for a sinking ship. But then again this has been discussed to death already in this thread and like somebody else said opinions may change when we get new information on the timeline of events. |
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wanderkind
Joined: 01 Jan 2012
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Additional info-bits:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/south-korea-ferry-body-of-boy-who-raised-alarm-believed-found-1.2620015
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| The body of a South Korean boy whose shaking voice first raised the alarm that a passenger ferry with hundreds on board was in trouble has been found, his parents believe, but a DNA test has yet to confirm the find, media said on Thursday. |
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/south-korea-ferry-divers-feel-for-children-s-bodies-in-dark-1.2618779
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| ...most of the bodies found in the last two days had broken fingers, presumably from the children frantically trying to climb the walls or floors to escape in their last moments, media said. |
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| "We are trained for hostile environments, but it's hard to be brave when we meet bodies in dark water," diver Hwang Dae-sik told Reuters, "We have to touch everything with our hands. This is the most gruelling and heartbreaking job of my career," he said. |
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/23/south-korea-ferry-body-recovery-reveals-horror-that-children-broke-fingers-trying-to-fight-their-way-out/
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| The Ministry of Ocean and Fisheries had released incomplete data on the turn last week because a central station did not receive all the signals the Sewol’s on-board transponder had sent. It released more complete details on Tuesday with data received by another station, and those show that the ferry spent about three minutes making a roughly 180-degree turn shortly before it began to list. |
Elsewhere it's reported as a 45degree turn, but this article sources its info as the Ministry of Ocean and Fisheries.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1285561/south-korea-ferry-toll-hits-150-as-search-gets-tougher/
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School worst affected by ferry sinking prepares to re-open for classes
Staff and students at Danwon High School in the Korean city of Ansan face the grim reality of having to resume classes on Thursday even as the school mourns the deaths of many of its second-year students and teachers in the accident.
Empty classrooms and notes pleading for students to return safely are haunting reminders of what the rest of the student body must face on Thursday.
“There is not just sadness, but also a lot of guilt. There are also a lot of emotions of anger and rage. Also, some students cannot even express their emotions, and are in a dazed state,” said school psychiatrist Hong Hyun-ju.
The school will be doing its best to help the students through their grief and shock while attempting to normalise classes by providing psychiatry sessions.
“(We are trying to help) the children overcome the shock and loss they are going through. And we are providing an intensive psychiatry programme to prevent any second round of after-effects that may occur,” said Hong. |
I expect they're referring to suicides. FFS, give them a little more time. Maybe it's optional though, who knows.
http://time.com/71342/south-korea-ferry-sinks-death-toll-100/
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| On Monday a chief engineer on board attempted suicide but is reportedly in stable condition and will soon be summoned for further questioning. |
http://time.com/73275/sewol-crew-heroes-ferry-korea/
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| Several former crew members have told South Korean media that the 20-year-old ferry, which had an extra deck added after it was acquired in 2012, had stability issues.The crew also spoke of steering problems only two weeks before the incident. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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SR etc. can continue making all the excuses they want but this kind of info is pretty damning in my opinion-
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◆ Fleeing Crew
As rescue ships and other vessels sailing nearby rushed to save the passengers aboard the Sewol, its crew simply told those aboard to remain where they were. The captain and crew continued to tell the frightened passengers to stay put until 9:30 a.m., around 30 minutes after the ferry capsized. Yet the first people to jump ship once rescue boats arrived were the captain and most of the crew.
While the passengers were waiting desperately for further instructions, the crew escaped at 9:37 a.m. and set foot on dry land even before the Sewol had completely gone under.
Out of 29 crew, 20 were rescued. Out of 325 teenagers from Danwon High School in Ansan, Gyeonggi Province, who were on a field trip to Jeju Island, only 75 were rescued. The captain lied to rescue officials, telling them he was an ordinary passenger. |
http://english.chosun.com/svc/list.html?catid=11 |
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AfroBurrito
Joined: 19 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails...Atwood...how do you find the time?
Those divers deserve to be commended. Not enough is being said about the harrowing nature of the enterprise in which they are engaged. Regardless of how the initial rescue did or did not meet expectations, they are doing grueling work. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm at work so I cant respond in detail. I AM NOT DEFENDING THE CAPTAIN. I have REPEATEDLY stated that he was guilty of abandoning the passengers. I even at one point stated that I wished he could be executed. However, I don't like ill-informed assertions and misinformation. I also don't like 20-20 hindsight types judging someone. The fact that the captain is guilty of SOME things does not make him guilty of ALL things. You have to get it right. I would say the same thing about any captain from any country in this situation. To make a risky decision (and yes, putting people on deck would be risky) without proper information is dangerous. Gtg class. TBC |
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radish kimchi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| he was guilty of abandoning the passengers. I even at one point stated that I wished he could be executed. |
Crimes against wearing a superman outfit. His only reprieve is that they didn't have a phone booth to change into his ferry boat superman saving self. Or else, we would be branding him a hero. Boo ya!!!!! |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| sweetrevenge wrote: |
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1. He abandoned ship instead of assisting passengers
2. He passed himself off as a passenger to the rescue boat
3. He was drying off his money after being rescued |
I don't wanna take sides in all this fiasco, but its hard to take your post seriously when you list a fault of the captain was drying his wet money on his hospital bed. Really? Cuz thats what got people killed? We should focus on the topic on hand and discuss why the captain did not prepare to evacuate the boat when that should be standard procedure for a sinking ship. But then again this has been discussed to death already in this thread and like somebody else said opinions may change when we get new information on the timeline of events. |
You'd be a dolt if that's how you interpreted that statement. The drying of the money is to show what type of character he really is. Because he is drying his money, while kids are dying, basically means he does not deserve the benefit of the doubt. The drying of the money had nothing to do with the sinking. It pertains to his character. |
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