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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Sister Ray wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
I wont even start on what its like to be a vegetarian here... |
I didn't have too much trouble maintaining a vegetarian diet in Seoul. It just necessitates a complete avoidance of Korean chefs who often seem to think that blood, lard or a boiled up old bones are acceptable vegetarian fare.
These days there are plenty of places where I can have an Indian, Thai or European cook for me, which results in better tasting food free from animal by product. |
Yeah, unfortunately I have friends and a girlfriend who like Korean food (and so do I now and again to a point). Its a little selfish of me to continually dictate where and what we eat, so I have to compromise and do the 'routine' with the Korean cooks. |
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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
| My coffee of choice is an americano with an extra shot of espresso and a dash of milk. 99% of baristas freeze when i ask as they have no idea how to make a coffee whose name (americano extra shot with milk) is the instruction to make it, and are terrified to make something off menu. They freeze everythime, and after a minute or 2, they ask their supervisor if they are aloowed to do it. The supervisor then comes to me to queery the order. No-one thinks for themselves here, and as such, we are all hamepered by inneficiency and the Korean fear of swallowing the blame. |
That's called going to a chain. That's also called knowing the right input for the store's POS system so that you can keep ensure order accuracy for the customer and track inventory.
Go to an independent coffee shop where the owner is also the barista, orders are written down on paper or not at all, and these things aren't a problem. |
In fairness, my gf told me recently that she never orders tea anymore as they wont put milk in it for her - its not how they are told to make it. I think thats taking it a bit far since they have milk on hand to put in the coffee, and its not as difficult as anything they would have done in a chemistry class at school.
Since weve gone completely off track (and not related to professionalism), I cant count the amount of times Ive had to sit for 5/10 minutes, sometimes with the help of more than one other person, trying to explain to the barman that I 'dont want my whiskey in a shot glass' but something that resembles a tumbler (i dont care about the shape, just something I can nurse) - and 'I dont want any ice in it either!'.
I wont even start on what its like to be a vegetarian here... |
In so many situations, it seems they believe there's only ONE WAY to do things , and anything slightly outside that way causes a complete FREEZE UP.
"DOES NOT COMPUTE!"
You see it with everything here, from fashion to food. I know it's a stereotype by now, but there really seems to be a lot less independent thought going on and not a lot of flexibility. It's either cultural or educational or both.
Now extrapolate that to the ferry disaster, and even if they HAD a manual and training, and protocols... anything slightly outside those parameters likely would have been met with a complete freeze up as well.
(Spot on about the whiskey glass, happens all the time. And the vegetarian thing... ouch. A vegetarian friend came to visit here, and we went to a nice restaurant and they wouldn't simply leave out the beef from the bibimbab. They kept asking us "How do we do that??" and I kept explaining in Korean, "Bring a bibimbab, but don't put in beef. just take it out." Complete with a simple hand movement of removing something. Easy right? They kept shaking their heads, went back and asked the cooks about it, and finally decided they couldn't do it, and our party of eight left, shaking OUR heads. The visitors couldn't understand why they couldn't make something slightly different. I wasn't surprised at all, having been through similar things hundreds of times here.) |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Across from my apartment a man was selling bananas in large bunches. I said I'd like to buy half a bunch. He said no, so I didn't buy anything. About five days later I asked him again, again he said no, so I didn't buy anything.
Another time a guy was selling coffee tables on the roadside. My friend him asked him where they came from. He said they have a factory about 15 minutes out of town. My friend said, he'd like to buy the same design with longer legs (like a regular computer desk height.) The guy said no. He said, but I'll pay you to make it. He said no.
My parents were visiting my town for two weeks, but there are no hotels in my city (just crappy motels/brothels). So I asked several real estate offices to rent me a one room for two weeks - I offered $1000. One called the owner of a unit even. They all said no, only 1 year contract. Even though they have empty units.
WTF? |
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sligo
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
| My coffee of choice is an americano with an extra shot of espresso and a dash of milk. 99% of baristas freeze when i ask as they have no idea how to make a coffee whose name (americano extra shot with milk) is the instruction to make it, and are terrified to make something off menu. They freeze everythime, and after a minute or 2, they ask their supervisor if they are aloowed to do it. The supervisor then comes to me to queery the order. No-one thinks for themselves here, and as such, we are all hamepered by inneficiency and the Korean fear of swallowing the blame. |
That's called going to a chain. That's also called knowing the right input for the store's POS system so that you can keep ensure order accuracy for the customer and track inventory.
Go to an independent coffee shop where the owner is also the barista, orders are written down on paper or not at all, and these things aren't a problem. |
I only ever go to idependent coffee shops. It is worse there, as the supervisor is the owner, and as such the underling is terrified to a higher degree.
But on the original point. This is bang on topic. Professionaism is being competent about your resposibilities, and knowing what to do in case of change. You can't plan for every outcome, but an idea of what to do in the most common scenarios will give a framework that can be adapted to more complex scenarios. Adding milk to coffee is common practice in a coffee shop, so if you can do it to coffee A, then it does not take too much mental energy to do it to coffee B.
As for the Sewol, professionalism is knowing how to do your job to the full extent of your responsibilities. If you are responsible to guiding people around the ship, then guiding people off is next to no different. Yes, it is a change to your usual duty, but do you really need clarification from a senior member of staff to adapt your behaviour? |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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In terms of ordering food, this makes me think of the hot dog situation at CGV. Often, we will go there and try to order regular hotdogs. However, they will say that they are out of regular hot dogs and only have chili dogs which are just average.
So I'm thinking the chili dogs are premade, but all they do is take a regular hot dog, and put chili on it right in front of you. Why not just give me the regular hot dog?! Why not just ask customers if they want a regular hot dog or chili hot dog and act accordingly? |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| sligo wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
| My coffee of choice is an americano with an extra shot of espresso and a dash of milk. 99% of baristas freeze when i ask as they have no idea how to make a coffee whose name (americano extra shot with milk) is the instruction to make it, and are terrified to make something off menu. They freeze everythime, and after a minute or 2, they ask their supervisor if they are aloowed to do it. The supervisor then comes to me to queery the order. No-one thinks for themselves here, and as such, we are all hamepered by inneficiency and the Korean fear of swallowing the blame. |
That's called going to a chain. That's also called knowing the right input for the store's POS system so that you can keep ensure order accuracy for the customer and track inventory.
Go to an independent coffee shop where the owner is also the barista, orders are written down on paper or not at all, and these things aren't a problem. |
I only ever go to idependent coffee shops. It is worse there, as the supervisor is the owner, and as such the underling is terrified to a higher degree.
But on the original point. This is bang on topic. Professionaism is being competent about your resposibilities, and knowing what to do in case of change. You can't plan for every outcome, but an idea of what to do in the most common scenarios will give a framework that can be adapted to more complex scenarios. Adding milk to coffee is common practice in a coffee shop, so if you can do it to coffee A, then it does not take too much mental energy to do it to coffee B.
As for the Sewol, professionalism is knowing how to do your job to the full extent of your responsibilities. If you are responsible to guiding people around the ship, then guiding people off is next to no different. Yes, it is a change to your usual duty, but do you really need clarification from a senior member of staff to adapt your behaviour? |
Thats the problem isnt it - training.
When Ive been taught how to deal with incidents, its always been 'what if...?, what if...?' banged into us so that we can respond to anything. Theres always a period afterward where youre expected to reflect on what youve been taught, collect and log experience, and theres often so some sort of re-test later - its a two stage thing. Its also ongoing through out your career (we love levels in Europe).
I've always taken training very seriously and to be quite frank, I enjoy it and think a lot of other people do, too. A lot of people Ive trained with also see their training as part of their responsibility to others in a situation of overseeing safety. Ive never noticed that here - quite the opposite in fact.
Ive always wondered if Koreans resent any kind of training/further education because of the education system being rammed down their throats for so much of their lives. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Absence of Professionalism as Cause of Sewol? |
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| cmxc wrote: |
A thought provoking piece by a Korean American about Korea's lack of professionalism as a major cause of the tragedy.
"Koreans are, and have remained, wonderfully AMATEURISH in everything: Koreans perceive everything from the heart and emotion. Even the matter of money to Koreans is a matter of the heart, not of the calculus of profit margins. Several years ago a policeman in America ticketed an 82-year-old woman for crossing the street too slowly, thus impeding traffic, and was praised by his captain for doing his "job." Koreans were aghast at the “heartlessness” of the cop. How could he, they would ask, issue a ticket to an 82-year-old woman for crossing the street TOO SLOWLY?"
Why Sewol tragedy occurred
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2014/04/197_156330.html |
The author is Jon Huer. Do a search for that name. He's written some vile anti-foreigner pieces in the past. |
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