|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
|
 Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 8:36 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Died By Bear wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Died By Bear wrote: |
| Maybe they don't like western scumbags of all colors coming into their bars, tearing them up fighting, and harrassing the girls. |
You have GOT to be joking.
. |
OF course I'm kidding  |
At the risk of attracting some heat, I think there is at least a few grains of truth in this. There are a minority of foreigners here who seem to think this is Thailand or the Philippines, and the local girls are fighting to to get at them. I have witnessed some creepy white guys totally bothering girls in bars here - some right in front of their boyfriends - leading to altercations.
It is these clueless halfwits that give the majority of foreigners a bad name, and unfortunately Koreans tend to tar us with the same shitty brush. |
And what do you mean by "bothering" girls? Talking to them? That can't be worse than what the local guys do; grabbing, physically restraining, intimidating the girls, and unable to take a hint.
|
This is exactly what I have witnessed drunk white guys doing. Just making drunken ill-judged attempts at wooing girls with their sexy bump 'n' grind, but not knowing when the girls aren't digging their vibe. I think that constitutes as 'bothering'. Any females care to weigh in on this? Would you be bothered in that situation?
There is a creepy white-guy mentality that exists concerning Asian girls. Some times they need to keep the Yellow fever in check. |
Big double standard going on here. Are you a Korean bar owner by chance? Sounds like you are happy about the bans.
So basically you are looking right past when the local guys do much worse. Even the bump and grind is mild compared to what a lot of them do. Anyway, what you've described is fairly "normal" club/bar behavior, but you seem to have a problem if a white guy is doing it, like we are all supposed to sit at the bar not looking at anyone and chatting about stocks or something. That would be ok with you, correct?
"Creepy" comes in all colors. And from your response it's easy to see that you think that if a white guy happens to be interested in an Asian girl, it's automatically some kind of perversion; "Yellow Fever". |
Try to take off the hater goggles occasionally. I already said that it is the minority of foreigners with the creepy white-guy attitude. I know that most foreigners are well-adjusted enough people, but unfortunately it is the bad behaviour that gets the headlines. I never said the ban was justifiable, but someone out there acted like a big enough tool to warrant such a reaction. |
"Hater goggles" ... says the guy who is hating. Nice spin. Ok, try telling that to the bar owners.
Of course there are some bad examples out there; there are always some douche-bags in clubs. The problem I had with your posts is that they reek of the same mentality and bias as the bar owners:
Singling out foreigners (specifically "white" foreigners, in your case) for hitting on a few girls and doing what is normal in clubs, while the locals do the same and worse. Double standard.
The whole "creepy white-guy attitude"... what is that exactly? A desire to talk to women and dance with them at the club, and a belief the women might actually like them back? How dare they! Is there a "creepy black-guy attitude" too, for when they are attracted to a woman? Or are they all infected with "yellow fever" too since the women at the clubs here are mostly Asian?
If you want to see "creepy", check out the next time you see a girl passed out at the table, and watch how many local guys try to scoop her up and get her out of there. That's basically like rape, and worse than a few "bump and grinds" on the dance floor. |
You are right. No foreigners have ever acted badly ever in Korea and Korean men are all basically rapists. My mistake.
I have seen so many CWGs scoping bars and clubs trying to find the most drunk girl in the place. In fact, I had to tell one odious Kiwi scumbag to *beep* off before he lost some teeth. These guys definitely exist.
Yes I know there are horrible predatory Korean guys too, but as this is Korea - and we all know it is a bit racist - their actions won't attract so much ire.
You sound like an embittered little *beep* with entitlement issues. I am as critical of Korea as anyone and I have been accused of being a basher many times. Now, you are basically trying to label me as an apologist. |
You tried to label me a hater, so I'd call it even. But not really, because now you've tried to label me an "embittered little _____ with entitlement issues". Well, thanks for trying to get personal, but you don't know me; I'm not little or bitter, and I don't believe I'm entitled to anything. In fact, I don't even view clubs as a decent place to meet women, and the scumbag behavior we sometimes see there bothers me too. But from the posts above you do seem to have a bit of bias going on against white men, as the anger in your post and the term "CWG" shows. Or maybe it's just a different emphasis than mine.
But you've basically said it: the locals are guilty too but don't attract so much ire. Double standard. We agree on that, but I can certainly sense a healthy dose of "ire" coming from you as well. That's what I don't get, and that attitude sort of plays into the hands of the bans. It comes of as: "I don't support bans, but hey, white guys are creepy, so ..."
Whatever. I'm sure if we were both in a club, we'd be in general agreement... that is IF we were allowed to enter the place! |
I have no idea what you are like in person, so I didn't make a direct personal attack. I meant the tone of the post makes you seem embittered. I am sure you are a sound fella in real life. |
Thanks. It was direct enough, so I had to respond. I didn't like your tone either so naturally things can escalate on the Internet. No worries though.
I've been denied entry into places several times here as a foreigner, and yes it can be maddening to be judged as scum before you even enter a place, so I can't get on board with a position that even hints that banning is acceptable, no matter how "creepy" a few white foreigners may have acted.
And I hate double standards and the elitist attitude that goes along with a ban. But this being Korea, it's no longer surprising. I think it will be interesting if this becomes an issue during the Winter Olympics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mix1 wrote: |
NOBODY mentioned stereotypes of ajosshis.
He likes to twist words and make stuff up to muddy the waters. It's just what he does.
The other thing he'll do is create a bunch of hypothetical situations where it's magically the foreigner's fault when something happens, then write three pages on it.
The basic theme: "It's the foreigner's fault" for getting banned. |
What, is there some rule that some word has to be mentioned now before it can be brought up in conversation? I brought up the drunken ajosshi stereotype to parallel it to the drunken foreigner stereotype and to show how BOTH are bad and people don't care for them. I think anyone who is against stereotyping would agree with this statement: It is wrong to generalize foreigners and "creepy guys at the bar" and it is wrong to stereotype middle aged Korean men as a bunch of drunk wife-beaters.
This isn't about twisting or muddying, its about all of us confronting stereotypes and prejudice. In order to combat prejudice against ourselves we must also be mindful of past prejudices which we have allowed to slip into ourselves. That's how we move forward.
The situations I listed were not hypothetical. They are situations I have actually experienced. Case in point- Three weeks ago when I went clubbing with some Korean dudes, I was denied entry to a club. I had no idea why at first. Now, I could have assumed that it was because I was foreign. However, it turned out that the reason I was denied was because I was "dressed too nice". It was a hip hop club and they wanted a certain look. If I hadn't had Korean speakers there to explain it, I might not have known the cause. I might have just assumed it was racism.
Unfortunately, these situations don't always get explained. A foreigner might (rightfully) feel that they are being denied service because of their race. The bouncer is just being too lazy and impatient to give the explanation the person deserves. He then compounds the problem by deciding to just ban foreigners rather than looking at the root cause.
The point of this is, is that these types of miscommunications can result in the Korean owner making a bad choice and choosing a discriminatory policy. They should take more steps to educate people about the customs and vibes each bar has. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
|
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
SteelRails,
Why would you assume racism? You've told us before that you're Korean-American.
Or you made up that story to prove a point no one was arguing against in order to distract from the topic at hand. But I'm sure you would never do that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
|
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Steelrails, my response to you was in no way to be rude or to take away the points of stereotyping and was specific enough in what I addressed towards you but you haven't responded to me - instead you took a stance to what Mix1 wrote... I think it's pretty rude to just brush me off like that, no?
It's easy to take a viewpoint against stereotypes towards Koreans or foreigners and most people in this thread are up to speed, but what we are also doing is engaging in the reasons behind is at a social level about clubs/bars in Korea.
Debate isn't always about arguing your points, so from my point of view it'd be nice if you could respond in the direct manner in which I have questioned you... this could lead to a good debate that even if we didn't agree on certain things, could leave people with other things to consider that they may not have otherwise. If not, it just becomes exhausting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 12:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| If I hadn't had Korean speakers there to explain it, I might not have known the cause. I might have just assumed it was racism. |
While I'm with ya on the stereotypes and over-generalizations... this part makes no sense to me.
Sorry, mate - always thought you were ethnically Korean. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 1:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
NOBODY mentioned stereotypes of ajosshis.
He likes to twist words and make stuff up to muddy the waters. It's just what he does.
The other thing he'll do is create a bunch of hypothetical situations where it's magically the foreigner's fault when something happens, then write three pages on it.
The basic theme: "It's the foreigner's fault" for getting banned. |
What, is there some rule that some word has to be mentioned now before it can be brought up in conversation? I brought up the drunken ajosshi stereotype to parallel it to the drunken foreigner stereotype and to show how BOTH are bad and people don't care for them. I think anyone who is against stereotyping would agree with this statement: It is wrong to generalize foreigners and "creepy guys at the bar" and it is wrong to stereotype middle aged Korean men as a bunch of drunk wife-beaters.
This isn't about twisting or muddying, its about all of us confronting stereotypes and prejudice. In order to combat prejudice against ourselves we must also be mindful of past prejudices which we have allowed to slip into ourselves. That's how we move forward.
The situations I listed were not hypothetical. They are situations I have actually experienced. Case in point- Three weeks ago when I went clubbing with some Korean dudes, I was denied entry to a club. I had no idea why at first. Now, I could have assumed that it was because I was foreign. However, it turned out that the reason I was denied was because I was "dressed too nice". It was a hip hop club and they wanted a certain look. If I hadn't had Korean speakers there to explain it, I might not have known the cause. I might have just assumed it was racism.
Unfortunately, these situations don't always get explained. A foreigner might (rightfully) feel that they are being denied service because of their race. The bouncer is just being too lazy and impatient to give the explanation the person deserves. He then compounds the problem by deciding to just ban foreigners rather than looking at the root cause.
The point of this is, is that these types of miscommunications can result in the Korean owner making a bad choice and choosing a discriminatory policy. They should take more steps to educate people about the customs and vibes each bar has. |
Hard to believe that a fashion maven such as yourself, who was declaiming on another thread about when to wear sneakers and vice-versa, would be dressed inappropriately for any occasion or setting.
The way you preach, you really should set up one of those storefront churches here. You'd make a killing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
SteelRails,
Why would you assume racism? You've told us before that you're Korean-American.
Or you made up that story to prove a point no one was arguing against in order to distract from the topic at hand. But I'm sure you would never do that. |
| Quote: |
While I'm with ya on the stereotypes and over-generalizations... this part makes no sense to me.
Sorry, mate - always thought you were ethnically Korean. |
Racism wasn't the right word. I should have said xenophobia. Anti-foreigner.
| Quote: |
Steelrails, my response to you was in no way to be rude or to take away the points of stereotyping and was specific enough in what I addressed towards you but you haven't responded to me - instead you took a stance to what Mix1 wrote... I think it's pretty rude to just brush me off like that, no?
|
My bad...I do get accused of writing too much. I wanted to respond to Mix's point first and wait for some more replies before I got to you.
| Quote: |
Sorry maybe I need to go back and read the first page again on my tiny screen... but in this thread I didn't get the impression that people were discussing stereotypes of ajosshi's and those same people then talking about only a minority of foreigners. Could you enlighten me as to where/who has been doing this?
I also think you misunderstood my question... I was asking about etiquette specific to Korea that you've come across that can be the cause of an altercation/fight.
What I'm after are examples b/c I can't come up with any situations I have seen (I have seen a fair few fights/arguments here but nothing I could identify as anything specific to Korean etiquette) that suggest what you are saying is the case. |
Well the ajosshi stereotype is a common theme on these boards- The drunken, wife-beating, racist ajosshi. It's at the point where the term "ajosshi" is used in a borderline derogatory fashion.
As for etiquette, I gave a list of things that can go down at various clubs that arise from miscommunication and poor choices by the Korean management during and in response to the events. As I said, a lot of Korean bars have unwritten rules that foreigners aren't usually aware of. Arguments and misunderstandings can happen because of these. The anju thing that most of us know about is one of the most basic ones.
Anyways, didn't mean to blow you off. Sorry about that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
|
| Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Well the ajosshi stereotype is a common theme on these boards- The drunken, wife-beating, racist ajosshi. It's at the point where the term "ajosshi" is used in a borderline derogatory fashion.
As for etiquette, I gave a list of things that can go down at various clubs that arise from miscommunication and poor choices by the Korean management during and in response to the events. As I said, a lot of Korean bars have unwritten rules that foreigners aren't usually aware of. Arguments and misunderstandings can happen because of these. The anju thing that most of us know about is one of the most basic ones.
Anyways, didn't mean to blow you off. Sorry about that. |
Okay, so from your first paragraph, would it be fair then to say that it has not been a theme of this particular thread and in fact your point was casting a wider net which didn't really have anything to do with the OP?
I'm sure misunderstandings do happen and you have indeed given examples, however that was not my question. I'm not sure if you are purposely avoiding it or you just misunderstood what I wrote.
I was not asking about possible scenario's that could take place but examples of when something specific to misunderstandings of Korean etiquette have lead to a fight/altercation. The reason I ask is b/c I have seen a lot of fights and it had nothing to do with differences in etiquette but just someone being an idiot. So I'm interested to hear from your experience as I am trying to be open minded about it... atm, I'm struggling to find any example of such situation and I would rather not assume you're fabricating such scenario's but it's something you have come across in order to reach the conclusion you have. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 3:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cam83 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Well the ajosshi stereotype is a common theme on these boards- The drunken, wife-beating, racist ajosshi. It's at the point where the term "ajosshi" is used in a borderline derogatory fashion.
As for etiquette, I gave a list of things that can go down at various clubs that arise from miscommunication and poor choices by the Korean management during and in response to the events. As I said, a lot of Korean bars have unwritten rules that foreigners aren't usually aware of. Arguments and misunderstandings can happen because of these. The anju thing that most of us know about is one of the most basic ones.
Anyways, didn't mean to blow you off. Sorry about that. |
Okay, so from your first paragraph, would it be fair then to say that it has not been a theme of this particular thread and in fact your point was casting a wider net which didn't really have anything to do with the OP?
I'm sure misunderstandings do happen and you have indeed given examples, however that was not my question. I'm not sure if you are purposely avoiding it or you just misunderstood what I wrote.
I was not asking about possible scenario's that could take place but examples of when something specific to misunderstandings of Korean etiquette have lead to a fight/altercation. The reason I ask is b/c I have seen a lot of fights and it had nothing to do with differences in etiquette but just someone being an idiot. So I'm interested to hear from your experience as I am trying to be open minded about it... atm, I'm struggling to find any example of such situation and I would rather not assume you're fabricating such scenario's but it's something you have come across in order to reach the conclusion you have. |
Hi cam83. I don't know if you're sincerely using the Socratic method to reel SR in, or if you're just much more patient and determined than the rest of us. Either way, kudos to you.
However, I feel like I have to explain the situation. SteelRails is an expert in everything, real or imagined. He will either avoid your questions, post 1000 word essays or misquote you until your original queries are long forgotten. After the Asiana crash last year he suddenly became an experienced pilot. After the Sewol tragedy he suddenly became an expert sailer. He grew up in the hood, he grew up surrounded by only whites, he grew up around eskimos. He's declared himself educated in political science, history, math, science, biology, chemistry...you get the point. Whatever fits the conversation at the time. Even here, he claimed that racism could have been a factor and when some of us brought up the fact that he has said he's ethnically Korean he backtracked. Not that I believe his ethnicity plays a role in this ruse. That's the thing, it is a ruse and I don't know what to believe from him anymore. I could talk about Putin tomorrow and he'd probably claim to be a former Russian president. Boy George has nothing on this chameleon.
I often tell others to just ignore him, but I myself am probably more guilty than others at letting him play out his narcissistic role play here. I used to think he was an intelligent, yet misguided, individual. Ever since he spammed several threads defending the captain of the Sewol I feel like he's either an elaborate troll or a desperate narcissist. Either way, same thing. You're not going to get a straight answer. You're going to get double speak and another confession of specialization in whatever topic we're talking about. It's not worth the time.
Like I said, maybe you're doing your own thing here to out SR. But it's not going to work. He's very good at what he does. I'll give him that. He had me going for years. But it's not worth the time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I was not asking about possible scenario's that could take place but examples of when something specific to misunderstandings of Korean etiquette have lead to a fight/altercation. The reason I ask is b/c I have seen a lot of fights and it had nothing to do with differences in etiquette but just someone being an idiot. So I'm interested to hear from your experience as I am trying to be open minded about it... |
Oh, I wasn't talking about any fights or altercations, just misunderstandings and difficulties that come with clubbing and being foreign in Korea. I've been in a couple where I didn't understand what was going on until I had it further explained. Nothing that resulted in a fight. I'm saying these things might cause some clubs or bars to make a bad choice and take the path of least effort and courtesy and just say "no foreigners".
But yeah, every fight I've witnessed has been because one party or another or both were drunk and acting stupid. Nothing to do with those bar rules.
| Quote: |
| After the Asiana crash last year he suddenly became an experienced pilot. After the Sewol tragedy he suddenly became an expert sailer. |
BlackCat- I NEVER SAID I WAS A PILOT. I SAID MY PARENTS WERE PRIVATE PILOTS AND I AS A CHILD HAD GONE FLYING WITH THEM VIRTUALLY EVERY WEEKEND.
I NEVER SAID I WAS AN EXPERT SAILOR. JUST THAT I THOUGHT THAT A SINGLE DECISION WAS MORE COMPLICATED THAN PEOPLE WERE MAKING IT
| Quote: |
| He grew up in the hood, he grew up surrounded by only whites |
You do realize its possible for someone to spend years on a farm and spend years in a crummy neighborhood over a 30 year period, right?
Your statement makes it seem some statement like "I grew up in a small town" "I grew up in New York City" is some sort of impossibility. People do move, you know that, right? Should I call you a BSer because you say "I've lived in Canada" "I've lived in Korea". That's what you're accusing me of.
BlackCat, you are saying I said things that I didn't say, and you are saying things that have happened in my life are lies. You are also saying that someone living in a farm and later living in a crappy neighborhood is some kind of impossibility.
I don't know what to say when you cannot even accurately process what I've written and remember it clearly.
| Quote: |
| Even here, he claimed that racism could have been a factor and when some of us brought up the fact that he has said he's ethnically Korean he backtracked. |
Yes, I said racism when I should have said xenophobia. It was a mistake and I corrected it. I'm sorry I blended those two together.
| Quote: |
| Ever since he spammed several threads defending the captain of the Sewol |
ARGGGHHH- Why can't you grasp the concept of me NOT defending the captain, but pointing out how one decision was not as easy as people were making it out to be.
By your logic someone who agrees with ONE of George W. Bush's decisions, or even just says "well, it's complicated", is suddenly a card carrying Republican who thinks Bush did no wrong and was the greatest president ever. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Blackcat, my patience these days is partially due to me learning to be more understanding of others' thought process on this site but also having seen the way others respond to SR, which usually ends up in a debate that has little to do with the OP
Anyway back on topic... thanks for your reply SR and you have confirmed that you were not even talking about altercations/fights, which is why in my first response, I was confused by the first paragraph:
| Quote: |
| I'd say the one big thing that causes a lot of these conflicts is the double-edged error of foreigners not knowing some of the etiquette and customs and Koreans unreasonably expecting foreigners to or being too lazy/irritable to explain things. |
If I'm being honest, I still don't understand what you meant by 'conflicts' but have to assume you simply meant 'arguments'. This is all fine, but when everyone else is discussing altercations/fights involving foreigners, do you honestly think that what you brought to light has anything to do with the OP?
As in, owners banning foreigners from a club b/c they were arguing too much? That's insane IMO... whereas foreigners fighting and making a mess is a legit concern.
If you look back at this thread, it's easy to see why certain ppl get annoyed with you - it's taken 3 or 4 exchanges just for you to answer a simple question to which your response doesn't justify your original post.
Also Captain, my mistake... I was under the impression that they all had to move out of HBC/KYD areas due to the base moving - I just haven't seen them around in anywhere near in the numbers of 18 months ago... could you shed any light on this? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
NOBODY mentioned stereotypes of ajosshis.
He likes to twist words and make stuff up to muddy the waters. It's just what he does.
The other thing he'll do is create a bunch of hypothetical situations where it's magically the foreigner's fault when something happens, then write three pages on it.
The basic theme: "It's the foreigner's fault" for getting banned. |
What, is there some rule that some word has to be mentioned now before it can be brought up in conversation? I brought up the drunken ajosshi stereotype to parallel it to the drunken foreigner stereotype and to show how BOTH are bad and people don't care for them. I think anyone who is against stereotyping would agree with this statement: It is wrong to generalize foreigners and "creepy guys at the bar" and it is wrong to stereotype middle aged Korean men as a bunch of drunk wife-beaters.
|
Yes, both of those things are wrong. I'm with you on that.
It's also wrong to stereotype blondes as dumb, but that isn't what we are discussing here, is it?
Of course there's no "rule", but the "ajosshi" thing was completely random, and you brought it up AS IF someone made a bunch of scathing remarks about them, and yet nobody did.
It's like a derail and straw man all rolled into one, and it seems to be a habit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cam83 wrote: |
Blackcat, my patience these days is partially due to me learning to be more understanding of others' thought process on this site but also having seen the way others respond to SR, which usually ends up in a debate that has little to do with the OP
Anyway back on topic... thanks for your reply SR and you have confirmed that you were not even talking about altercations/fights, which is why in my first response, I was confused by the first paragraph:
| Quote: |
| I'd say the one big thing that causes a lot of these conflicts is the double-edged error of foreigners not knowing some of the etiquette and customs and Koreans unreasonably expecting foreigners to or being too lazy/irritable to explain things. |
If I'm being honest, I still don't understand what you meant by 'conflicts' but have to assume you simply meant 'arguments'. This is all fine, but when everyone else is discussing altercations/fights involving foreigners, do you honestly think that what you brought to light has anything to do with the OP?
As in, owners banning foreigners from a club b/c they were arguing too much? That's insane IMO... whereas foreigners fighting and making a mess is a legit concern.
|
What he does in many cases is basically refocus the blame back onto foreigners (right or wrong). There may be multiple reasons why some Korean bar owners want to ban foreigners, but I doubt it has much to do with foreigners not ordering the correct whiskey set or wearing the wrong shoes. It's mostly down to prejudice/racism.
Fighting is a legit concern, but in that case, what caused the fights and who ended up getting the blame for it in the form of a ban? There is still likely some prejudice going on in that decision process.
If a group of people are going into a place and trouble starts every night, then I can see the rationale for an owner wanting a ban, but in lots of the cases I've seen where they don't allow foreigners, their explanation was "just because" or "this is only for Koreans". It was obvious it was just simple prejudice, and the other common thread was... WOMEN went there. If it was just a bunch of guys inside watching sports, does anyone really think there'd be any problem letting foreigners in? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
cam83, thanks for being patient and hearing me out. I'm sorry I didn't make things more clear. When I made my original post, it seemed people were talking generally "creepy guys" or bar discrimination. I didn't address fighting and didn't intend to, as discrimination doesn't always involve fights.
I mentioned those things because a lot of potential for misunderstanding that might get chalked up to foreign patrons blaming racism, and Korean bar owners becoming impatient and wrongheaded and posting "no foreigner" signs might be cases like I mentioned. It's not always because of "creepy guys" (which is a ridiculous reason- a lot of drunk guys at clubs are potential creepers) or fights. Sometimes it can revolve more around style, price, and customs. How many new arrivals realize that "dance club" and "night club" are not synonymous and how many difficulties might this cause because of the extreme difference in pricing and customs involved? It's ridiculous to expect foreigners to know the difference so I don't blame them. I blame the Korean operators who are too impatient to take the time to try and explain things. BUT it is important to recognize that it might not just be because of "creepy guys" or fights or prejudice.
For example, someone might visit a nightclub and order a bottle of whiskey with "45" next to it, assuming its 45,000 won. Reasonable assumption. Unfortunately, this is one of those uber-expensive table places and "45" means 450,000. Foreigner gets the bill and thinks they're being taken for a ride. Korean bar manager didn't make things clear and should have maybe let this one slide. Korean bar owner lazily puts up a "no foreigners" sign to avoid this. This is not some ridiculous example as I've had something very similar happen. Foreigners are in no way shape or form to blame. It's just one of those things that happens.
| Quote: |
| it's taken 3 or 4 exchanges just for you to answer a simple question to which your response doesn't justify your original post. |
I'm sorry, I thought I had responded the first time, but I was confused by what you meant. Trust me, I do try to answer things. It may be wordy, it may be rambling, it may be moronic, you may not like the answer, but I do try to answer things.
I sincerely thought that what I'm bringing up might be relevant and certainly would have added something more beyond people arguing over "creepy guys" and drunken fights. I think a lot of things that happen often have more complex reasons than people initially assume.
| Quote: |
Yes, both of those things are wrong. I'm with you on that.
It's also wrong to stereotype blondes as dumb, but that isn't what we are discussing here, is it?
Of course there's no "rule", but the "ajosshi" thing was completely random, and you brought it up AS IF someone made a bunch of scathing remarks about them, and yet nobody did. |
Well, plenty of people have on these boards. I don't think its unreasonable to point out how in plenty of threads ajosshis are stereotyped, to the point where the term has a derogatory undertone to it, and how its similarly wrong to stereotype foreigners as drunk and violent. I mean the basic ajosshi stereotype is that he's drunk on soju and beating his wife. That's pretty much on par with "drunken foreigners getting into fights".
It's like if someone made a comment about black people being banned from clubs because they get in drunken fights, and someone pointing out how a common stereotype of rural whites is that they get in drunken fights, even though no one brought up rural whites. That would seem pretty pertinent to me.
| Quote: |
| but I doubt it has much to do with foreigners not ordering the correct whiskey set or wearing the wrong shoes. It's mostly down to prejudice/racism. |
It's really easy to cry racism. But as I said, its not always the case.I'd generally say, that if its a common hof/bar/dance club, then that's racism. If it's some random "business room" place or one of those expensive table night clubs, its far more likely that miscommunication over pricing and style is to blame.
Heck, it might not even be because of English teachers or westerners that they ban foreigners. Wasn't it alleged that a few foreigner-friendly bars in Itaewon had bans against Nigerians? Foreigner is not always synonymous with westerner or English Teacher or GI. That doesn't make it right- anybody and everybody, regardless of race or ethnicity should be allowed in. Just that things might be more complex and its risky business to assume what someone's motives are, even if they are engaged in poor actions and choices.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 12:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
SR WAS A PILOT? You learn something new every day.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
