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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Your "rapid modernization" apology fails. Modernization does not have to be accompanied by corruption, cronyism or graft. Besides, there's nothing very modern about a ferry. |
It isn't an "apology." Rule of law developed in the west over a period of hundreds of years so it developed along with econonmic modernization. In places like Korea, where rule of law is a new foreign concept, economic development came first with "laws" being second. We saw this all the time in the Park Chung Hee era, where the government blatantly ignored labor laws and encouraged violations of it in the name of "progress." This is pretty common in every country that follows this method.
That has nothing to do with confucionism. People seem to forget that Korea has been bombarded with many ideas over the last two hundred years that saying "Confucionism" is just being hackish.
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| Human selfishness was at fault, and in Korea they happen to use Confucianism as their defence for this selfishness. |
That is a perfect way to put it. |
Again, there's nothing forcing any country to follow that method, hence it's an apology.
Rule of law didn't develop along with economic modernization. Laws and the concept of laws have a very long history.
So if Korea didn't have rule of law, what did it have in its place?
Confucianism. |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| The problem is lack of enforcement of laws/rules. |
Which is directly related to Confucianism--the authority, to earn and maintain filial piety, has to be seen as kind and generous, which leads to a lack of enforcement. |
And what does family relations have to do with a boat captain not following his duty? Confucionism also applies to civil servants and they are held responsible to remain order and laws. They are not expected to ignore the laws because some family member wants otherwise.
The lack of enforcement of laws is a by product of the Park Chung Hee era and rapid development. The government blatantly encouraged skirting and ignoring the law in the name of "progress," most notably in labor and anti-corruption laws. This type of stuff is actually pretty common in any country that is going or recently went under rapid modernization. |
You're being overly literal; family is a metaphor for the nation or the community.
Civil servants obviously ignored the laws in letting the ferry sail at all. The boat captain was not a civil servant, so I'm unsure of what you're trying to say in regards to him.
The laws in SK have been, for the most part, very fluid and open to interpretation. That was so civil servants could collect stuffed white envelopes for giving favorable interpretations.
Your "rapid modernization" apology fails. Modernization does not have to be accompanied by corruption, cronyism or graft. Besides, there's nothing very modern about a ferry. |
You keep saying this in almost very thread you post in, but it is just a stupid argument so just stop.
You have yet to post any examples of a country adapting to new standards quickly and without trial and error. |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Again, there's nothing forcing any country to follow that method, hence it's an apology. |
Noone is saying Korea was being forced. I don't get how saying "It isn't because of ancient culture but because they were ran by a dictator for 40 years!" is exactly making an excuse. Hell, I'd call that a harsher generalization.
| Quote: |
| Rule of law didn't develop along with economic modernization. Laws and the concept of laws have a very long history. |
Laws have existed for ages, Rule of Law (the idea that laws are supreme and noone is above them) are not. While Rome is considered the "founder" of Rule of Law, most of Europe followed divine law and it wasn't until the Enlightenment and some dude name Napoleon that Rule of Law became accepted.
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So if Korea didn't have rule of law, what did it have in its place?
Confucianism. |
No, they had a military dictatorship who was influenced by a mix of Japanese nationalism, Marxism and fascism. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Again, there's nothing forcing any country to follow that method, hence it's an apology. |
Noone is saying Korea was being forced. I don't get how saying "It isn't because of ancient culture but because they were ran by a dictator for 40 years!" is exactly making an excuse. Hell, I'd call that a harsher generalization.
| Quote: |
| Rule of law didn't develop along with economic modernization. Laws and the concept of laws have a very long history. |
Laws have existed for ages, Rule of Law (the idea that laws are supreme and noone is above them) are not. While Rome is considered the "founder" of Rule of Law, most of Europe followed divine law and it wasn't until the Enlightenment and some dude name Napoleon that Rule of Law became accepted.
| Quote: |
So if Korea didn't have rule of law, what did it have in its place?
Confucianism. |
No, they had a military dictatorship who was influenced by a mix of Japanese nationalism, Marxism and fascism. |
How would you describe France under the rule of Napoleon? He was an emperor, basically a dictator. Was corruption necessary for him to make reforms in France? And while the industrial revolution was happening, how exactly did that influence what Napoleon did and how did it help him to avoid corruption, etc.?
Good points about the military dictatorship, but Confucianism was/is still the basis of any Korean ethics. And it certainly helped in the acceptance of a dictator, as it does today in NK.
You want to see differences, and I understand that. You've read a lot and people have to find differences to write about. But Confucianism has been at the core of Korean thought and ethics for a long time.
Putting the blame on one man, as you are doing, is an easy answer, the same one people are looking for by blaming the captain of the Sewol. They should instead be looking in the mirror and wondering what part their thinking and the actions that spring from such thought enabled the ongoing corruption surrounding the ferry and its cult owners. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| 3DR wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| The problem is lack of enforcement of laws/rules. |
Which is directly related to Confucianism--the authority, to earn and maintain filial piety, has to be seen as kind and generous, which leads to a lack of enforcement. |
And what does family relations have to do with a boat captain not following his duty? Confucionism also applies to civil servants and they are held responsible to remain order and laws. They are not expected to ignore the laws because some family member wants otherwise.
The lack of enforcement of laws is a by product of the Park Chung Hee era and rapid development. The government blatantly encouraged skirting and ignoring the law in the name of "progress," most notably in labor and anti-corruption laws. This type of stuff is actually pretty common in any country that is going or recently went under rapid modernization. |
You're being overly literal; family is a metaphor for the nation or the community.
Civil servants obviously ignored the laws in letting the ferry sail at all. The boat captain was not a civil servant, so I'm unsure of what you're trying to say in regards to him.
The laws in SK have been, for the most part, very fluid and open to interpretation. That was so civil servants could collect stuffed white envelopes for giving favorable interpretations.
Your "rapid modernization" apology fails. Modernization does not have to be accompanied by corruption, cronyism or graft. Besides, there's nothing very modern about a ferry. |
You keep saying this in almost very thread you post in, but it is just a stupid argument so just stop.
You have yet to post any examples of a country adapting to new standards quickly and without trial and error. |
Korea could have learned from what you term "trial and error." Other countries, as you post, had already tread that path. But they didn't. They took/take shortcuts.
The "we are poor" crocodile tears are just an excuse.
It's not a stupid argument. Think about it.  |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
How would you describe France under the rule of Napoleon? He was an emperor, basically a dictator. Was corruption necessary for him to make reforms in France? And while the industrial revolution was happening, how exactly did that influence what Napoleon did and how did it help him to avoid corruption, etc.? |
The point was that rule of law didn't become widespread until Napoleon brought the French Revolution and it's love for securalism and republicanism over divine right. I ain't going to comment on French corruption because that is not my expertise, but I can tell you about the gilded age, machine local politics and other corruption in the USA.
| Quote: |
| Good points about the military dictatorship, but Confucianism was/is still the basis of any Korean ethics. And it certainly helped in the acceptance of a dictator, as it does today in NK. |
Synghman Rhee wasn't accepted because of Confucianism. He was accepted by some groups because he was pro-western, anti-communist, willing to work with collabrators and wasn't tainted with Japanese collobration. He never was really accepted at large and his tenure was filled with civil unrest.
Park Chunghee wasn't accepted because of Confucianism. He was part of a group of military minds who were influenced by Imperial Japan and other non-Confucionist doctrine. He had acceptance among some groups because he brought order and progress, but always had some dissent and his final ten years was full of protests. His successors were never accepted by Koreans at large.
I should also note that a Confucionist military dictatorship is an oxymoron by anyone who is familiar with Confucionism. Confucionism is anti-military and Korean military culture is pretty much a straight import from Imperial Japan.
| Quote: |
| You want to see differences, and I understand that. You've read a lot and people have to find differences to write about. But Confucianism has been at the core of Korean thought and ethics for a long time. |
Confucionism is one aspect of Korean thought. Saying the core of Korean thought and ethics is just being ignorant. For craps sake, ethnic nationalism is probably one of Korea's most infamous traits which is something that goes against Confucionism.
| Quote: |
| Putting the blame on one man, as you are doing, is an easy answer, the same one people are looking for by blaming the captain of the Sewol. They should instead be looking in the mirror and wondering what part their thinking and the actions that spring from such thought enabled the ongoing corruption surrounding the ferry and its cult owners. |
I'm not putting the blame on one man unless you think Park Chunghee was President for a hundred years. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
How would you describe France under the rule of Napoleon? He was an emperor, basically a dictator. Was corruption necessary for him to make reforms in France? And while the industrial revolution was happening, how exactly did that influence what Napoleon did and how did it help him to avoid corruption, etc.? |
The point was that rule of law didn't become widespread until Napoleon brought the French Revolution and it's love for securalism and republicanism over divine right. I ain't going to comment on French corruption because that is not my expertise, but I can tell you about the gilded age, machine local politics and other corruption in the USA.
| Quote: |
| Good points about the military dictatorship, but Confucianism was/is still the basis of any Korean ethics. And it certainly helped in the acceptance of a dictator, as it does today in NK. |
Synghman Rhee wasn't accepted because of Confucianism. He was accepted by some groups because he was pro-western, anti-communist, willing to work with collabrators and wasn't tainted with Japanese collobration. He never was really accepted at large and his tenure was filled with civil unrest.
Park Chunghee wasn't accepted because of Confucianism. He was part of a group of military minds who were influenced by Imperial Japan and other non-Confucionist doctrine. He had acceptance among some groups because he brought order and progress, but always had some dissent and his final ten years was full of protests. His successors were never accepted by Koreans at large.
I should also note that a Confucionist military dictatorship is an oxymoron by anyone who is familiar with Confucionism. Confucionism is anti-military and Korean military culture is pretty much a straight import from Imperial Japan.
| Quote: |
| You want to see differences, and I understand that. You've read a lot and people have to find differences to write about. But Confucianism has been at the core of Korean thought and ethics for a long time. |
Confucionism is one aspect of Korean thought. Saying the core of Korean thought and ethics is just being ignorant. For craps sake, ethnic nationalism is probably one of Korea's most infamous traits which is something that goes against Confucionism.
| Quote: |
| Putting the blame on one man, as you are doing, is an easy answer, the same one people are looking for by blaming the captain of the Sewol. They should instead be looking in the mirror and wondering what part their thinking and the actions that spring from such thought enabled the ongoing corruption surrounding the ferry and its cult owners. |
I'm not putting the blame on one man unless you think Park Chunghee was President for a hundred years. |
You certainly seem to be putting all the responsiblities on the shoulders of whomever was president. That is very Confucionist, relying on the father figure/great man.
The social and moral fabric of SK comes straight out of Confucianism. The family is at the center and within the family there are ranks. All that still holds true.
As to ethnic nationalism, it's easy to see how that would originate form a heirarchy where the norms for how we treat others change--for the worse--as the person becomes more distant from "our family." That's easy to see in Korean everyday life.
But Confucianism as it was practiced and taught was an authoritative, hierarchical system. which seems to be a good starting place for a dictatorship. It favored rule by moral charisma and moral education over rule of law. The weakness of rule of law in Korea is greatly influenced by that view.
Earlier you mentioned officials' duties to speak up. That's a bit misleading.
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| Consider political speech. It’s true, as Daniel says, that Confucianism calls for officials in certain positions to remonstrate with superiors to prevent policy mistakes. But this is not Millian free speech. The speech in question is highly circumscribed. Only those in certain official posts are expected to speak, and only in certain circumstances. Their speech is not directed to the public, but to their superiors in the hierarchy. |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
You certainly seem to be putting all the responsiblities on the shoulders of whomever was president. That is very Confucionist, relying on the father figure/great man. |
TIL Hitler, Stalin and Hugo Chavez were secret Confucionists!
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| The social and moral fabric of SK comes straight out of Confucianism. The family is at the center and within the family there are ranks. All that still holds true. |
It definitely is the dominate factor in family relations. Does it dominate the entire social fabric? No. There are other things forming that as well.
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| As to ethnic nationalism, it's easy to see how that would originate form a heirarchy where the norms for how we treat others change--for the worse--as the person becomes more distant from "our family." That's easy to see in Korean everyday life. |
You don't know jack **** about Confucionism or Korean history. Confucionism is explicity anti-Nationalist because it believes in the superiority of China among all others. Ethnic Nationalism in Korea originates from Japan (Funfact: The first Korean nationalists were also pro-Japanese) which in turn was borrowed from the west.
Stop being an orientalist.
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| But Confucianism as it was practiced and taught was an authoritative, hierarchical system. which seems to be a good starting place for a dictatorship. It favored rule by moral charisma and moral education over rule of law. The weakness of rule of law in Korea is greatly influenced by that view. |
Once again: The Dictatorships in Korea got their main influence from imperial Japan, Fascism and Communism. Confucionism was probably pretty low on their influences. If you want to see how a modern Confucionist dictatorship would probably look NK would be a better example. Furthermore, it did not make them "more accepted" considering none of them were exactly accepted by the Korean populations.
Seriously, half the stuff your describing to Confucionism aren't actually unique Confucionist traits. Hiearchy and authoritarianism? 95% of ideologies can be described as that. Emphasis on moral charisma and moral education? You know how many famous dictators or political ideologies that explains? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
You certainly seem to be putting all the responsiblities on the shoulders of whomever was president. That is very Confucionist, relying on the father figure/great man. |
TIL Hitler, Stalin and Hugo Chavez were secret Confucionists!
| Quote: |
| The social and moral fabric of SK comes straight out of Confucianism. The family is at the center and within the family there are ranks. All that still holds true. |
It definitely is the dominate factor in family relations. Does it dominate the entire social fabric? No. There are other things forming that as well.
| Quote: |
| As to ethnic nationalism, it's easy to see how that would originate form a heirarchy where the norms for how we treat others change--for the worse--as the person becomes more distant from "our family." That's easy to see in Korean everyday life. |
You don't know jack **** about Confucionism or Korean history. Confucionism is explicity anti-Nationalist because it believes in the superiority of China among all others. Ethnic Nationalism in Korea originates from Japan (Funfact: The first Korean nationalists were also pro-Japanese) which in turn was borrowed from the west.
Stop being an orientalist.
| Quote: |
| But Confucianism as it was practiced and taught was an authoritative, hierarchical system. which seems to be a good starting place for a dictatorship. It favored rule by moral charisma and moral education over rule of law. The weakness of rule of law in Korea is greatly influenced by that view. |
Once again: The Dictatorships in Korea got their main influence from imperial Japan, Fascism and Communism. Confucionism was probably pretty low on their influences. If you want to see how a modern Confucionist dictatorship would probably look NK would be a better example. Furthermore, it did not make them "more accepted" considering none of them were exactly accepted by the Korean populations.
Seriously, half the stuff your describing to Confucionism aren't actually unique Confucionist traits. Hiearchy and authoritarianism? 95% of ideologies can be described as that. Emphasis on moral charisma and moral education? You know how many famous dictators or political ideologies that explains? |
Here we go again with the it has to be unique to matter argument, an argument that has more holes than a colander.
A Said devotee? A lot of what he's written has been debunked.
The hierarchy that forms family relations also informs the society as a whole. You're being short-sighted. But you're in a country full of optometrists, so you're in luck.
So China is superior to all other nations and that's not nationalism? And didn't the idea of pure blood, still very strong in Korea originate in Confucianism?
That NK is a better example doesn't mean SK isn't an example as well.
And back to the thread's title--late Joseon was Confucian and was beset by corruption and cronyism. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Can someone who points to culture and Confucianism be bothered to set up a standard of objective criteria and detail its philosophy and application to Korea in detail? I would also like them to explain how such criteria are unique to Korea and how such criteria are universal throughout Korea.
I've been saying it before and I'll say it again- The more you look at the culture argument, the more you realize it is just a bunch of creative writing to explain something and not a logical, testable, verifiable explanation of things. It's like violent video games or Marilyn Manson (what basically amount to culture arguments). It's pseudoscience. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Can someone who points to culture and Confucianism be bothered to set up a standard of objective criteria and detail its philosophy and application to Korea in detail? I would also like them to explain how such criteria are unique to Korea and how such criteria are universal throughout Korea.
I've been saying it before and I'll say it again- The more you look at the culture argument, the more you realize it is just a bunch of creative writing to explain something and not a logical, testable, verifiable explanation of things. It's like violent video games or Marilyn Manson (what basically amount to culture arguments). It's pseudoscience. |
Why don't you? You think you've got all the answers.
Violent video games doesn't support your argument, no matter how many times you say it.
http://www.soc.iastate.edu/sapp/VideoGames1.pdf
A type of culture doesn't have to be unique or universal to have a strong effect or influence. That's a non-starter as an argument.
This dude doesn't seem to think it's pseudoscience:
http://faculty.mu.edu.sa/public/uploads/1360755606.0279organizational%20cult76.pdf
A better question might be why some so heatedly wish to refute the role of Confucianism in Korea. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I've never read the book described here but have lived in Korea for several years. What I see in Korea more in extreme than Canada is that you always do what your ajossi says. Some ajossis can be smug and arrogant, though that does seem to be changing somewhat nowadays and is less so than before. But they are almost unquestionably right like a religion. Not saying it doesn't happen to some degree in the west, but older people are less entitled and feel less entitled. Add in the whole if you're not in my group, then it's all about me. Me, me, me. It's why, until recently, everyone ran for the exit trying to first rather than standing in line and being considerate of other people. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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So the hallmarks of Confucianism are nepotism, gender inequality, wealth and status, "family like" work environments, and "the boss is always right" and kissing the butt of big shots.
Is this Confucianism or an episode of Mad Men? I mean doesn't that pretty much describe every culture on the planet until, say the 1960s? It's like people who describe Korean dating as being focused on getting married and having children, family approving of the husband, and wealth and status being a big concern. Is that Korea or a Jane Austen novel?
As for collectivism and valuing the group, I love how people flip flop between declaring Koreans zombies who follow everyone else, and then declaring them the most selfish and "living in a bubble" people on the planet.
As for violent video games, violent crime has dipped significantly beginning in the 1990s in the United States. And if there is one thing that the 1990s-2000s are definitely not known for it is violent video games and hardcore gangsta rap. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
So the hallmarks of Confucianism are nepotism, gender inequality, wealth and status, "family like" work environments, and "the boss is always right" and kissing the butt of big shots.
Is this Confucianism or an episode of Mad Men? I mean doesn't that pretty much describe every culture on the planet until, say the 1960s? It's like people who describe Korean dating as being focused on getting married and having children, family approving of the husband, and wealth and status being a big concern. Is that Korea or a Jane Austen novel?
As for collectivism and valuing the group, I love how people flip flop between declaring Koreans zombies who follow everyone else, and then declaring them the most selfish and "living in a bubble" people on the planet.
As for violent video games, violent crime has dipped significantly beginning in the 1990s in the United States. And if there is one thing that the 1990s-2000s are definitely not known for it is violent video games and hardcore gangsta rap. |
Zombies don't share. Man is there nothing you can't get wrong?
Do you have any research regarding your claims about video games?
Thanks, however, for the brevity of your post. |
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