|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
 Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 3:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| It is also a touch ironic that a man who fleed a country where rival ethnic groups are now hacking each other up with machetes should be lecturing Norwegians, who never engaged in slavery or colonizing Africa, about racism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
Perhaps the more astute among the visitors will notice that not all that much has changed in 100 years in the Congo. |
According to Dr. Lynn in his IQ and the Wealth of Nations, the average of all IQ research re: Congo shows an average IQ in Congo of 65. In less PC times, an IQ below 70 was considered mild mental retardation.
Norway, also according to Lynn, has an average IQ of 98. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 11:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Brainwashing impressionable young children about 'white privilege.' I wonder how common this kind of thing is in American schools.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tlltSlGItY |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| "Pretending!" Well played, 8 year old girl. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
This whole check your privilege thing is weird. White people, like all races, run a range of positions in society, and there is no way that I would tell a poor white person that they are privileged any more than I would tell a rich black person they are not privileged. I think it is worthwhile to look at areas where there is demonstrated disparity, i.e. people with black names on identical resumes getting fewer callbacks, black people committing the exact same crime as white people but getting longer prison sentences, black and whites using drugs at the same rate but one race being jailed at a much higher rate, etc.
I don't see what good this privilege checking does for anyone other than middle and upper middle White people who get some kind of thrill from it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I don't see what good this privilege checking does for anyone other than middle and upper middle White people who get some kind of thrill from it. |
It provides a cover for the failure and dysfunction of non Asian minorities. Ie whites (and east Asians) do not have higher IQ's, have longer future time orientation, have a stronger ability to control impulses/aggression etc etc all of which are heritable traits. No. The whites are benefactors of "privilege", which is like the Force in Star Wars. It is everywhere and all around us. The Europeans built civilizations on the back of privilege. If we take this privilege away the Africans will then start acting like Germans and finally, finally, we will be equal.
In other words, it is a rhetorical shock troop for more aggressive racial preferences, explicit restrictions on white accomplishment, and eventually reparations.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117834/ta-nehisi-coates-atlantic-magazine-slavery-reparations-essay
http://billmoyers.com/2014/05/19/ta-nehisi-coates-on-the-case-for-reparations/
https://ffbsccn.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/atlantic-reparations.png?w=225&h=300
I'm Irish (diaspora). We drink too much b/c of Moor, Arab and Turk slave raids. I want reparations. Slavs need checks from Mongols. Massive guilt there. Icelandic people gonna get paid by Turks. Ukrainians have some cash headed their way from Israel. So much guilt, so little money.
Here's a nice reply: http://www.amren.com/features/2013/10/is-the-west-guilty/ (Leon best not to open that if you're on school server FYI) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 1:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Titus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't see what good this privilege checking does for anyone other than middle and upper middle White people who get some kind of thrill from it. |
It provides a cover for the failure and dysfunction of non Asian minorities. Ie whites (and east Asians) do not have higher IQ's, have longer future time orientation, have a stronger ability to control impulses/aggression etc etc all of which are heritable traits. No. The whites are benefactors of "privilege", which is like the Force in Star Wars. It is everywhere and all around us. The Europeans built civilizations on the back of privilege. If we take this privilege away the Africans will then start acting like Germans and finally, finally, we will be equal.
In other words, it is a rhetorical shock troop for more aggressive racial preferences, explicit restrictions on white accomplishment, and eventually reparations.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117834/ta-nehisi-coates-atlantic-magazine-slavery-reparations-essay
http://billmoyers.com/2014/05/19/ta-nehisi-coates-on-the-case-for-reparations/
https://ffbsccn.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/atlantic-reparations.png?w=225&h=300
I'm Irish (diaspora). We drink too much b/c of Moor, Arab and Turk slave raids. I want reparations. Slavs need checks from Mongols. Massive guilt there. Icelandic people gonna get paid by Turks. Ukrainians have some cash headed their way from Israel. So much guilt, so little money.
Here's a nice reply: http://www.amren.com/features/2013/10/is-the-west-guilty/ (Leon best not to open that if you're on school server FYI) |
You could sum it up for me. If anything my research for my class on terrorism has already put me on lists I don't want to be on and no need to go out of my way to get put on more.
I think that the idea that all whites are privileged is silly because I've seen actual privilege and I don't think that is something most white people even come into contact with in their lives.
I'm ethnic Norwegian, I apologize for my people raiding your people. More seriously, and we don't agree whatever, minorities haven't had equal opportunities, and civil rights is still recent history. Even if you could prove your supposition, it's almost a so what proposition unless you plan on allowing opportunities to be explicitly based on things like race. Not so long ago, your people were considered trash in America, and those Russians you now look up to were considered subhuman at best by Germans, it might be prudent to be a bit slower to rush to conclusions about entire races of people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| I think it is worthwhile to look at areas where there is demonstrated disparity, i.e. people with black names on identical resumes getting fewer callbacks, black people committing the exact same crime as white people but getting longer prison sentences, black and whites using drugs at the same rate but one race being jailed at a much higher rate, etc. |
I agree that justice requires putting these things right.
| Leon wrote: |
| Not so long ago, your people were considered trash in America ... |
The thing is that an entire continent is populated by and governed by Africans. If one is just looking at African Americans, okay, you can invoke civil rights and slavery and so forth and create a narrative explaining why a populace which is otherwise 100% equal in capability is facing hard times, but then you've got to turn to Africa and explain why that away as well. And you can't just play the colonization card; even if we ignore the fact that colonialism was probably a long-term net benefit to Africa from an economic point of view, South Korea was more heavily colonized than the likes of Libera or Ethiopia ever were, yet South Korea today blows both of them out of the water (South Korea's GDP per capita is nearly 50 times higher than either Liberia's or Ethiopia's). Titus' racial position has a lot of explanatory power. I don't think it's necessarily 100% correct, but it's definitely not 0% correct. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The thing is that an entire continent is populated by and governed by Africans. If one is just looking at African Americans, okay, you can invoke civil rights and slavery and so forth and create a narrative explaining why a populace which is otherwise 100% equal in capability is facing hard times, but then you've got to turn to Africa and explain why that away as well. |
You beat me to it.
| Quote: |
| Titus' racial position has a lot of explanatory power. I don't think it's necessarily 100% correct, but it's definitely not 0% correct. |
I'm not an IQ fetishist. IQ is extremely important, and a certain average is a necessary condition for a group to function within modernity. If the sufficient threshold is met, there are then a host of other factors, many of which are heritable (if anything, I'm a time-orientation fetishist). Some are not, though I do note that things tend to stay pretty predicable over time. A good example is the Chinese diaspora. In every single nation where there is a Chinese diaspora in Asia they are utterly dominant. Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia. Is it Chinese privilege? Is the Chinese tendency towards dominating commerce genetic? Surely, in part. We are not a single unified species. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I think it is worthwhile to look at areas where there is demonstrated disparity, i.e. people with black names on identical resumes getting fewer callbacks, black people committing the exact same crime as white people but getting longer prison sentences, black and whites using drugs at the same rate but one race being jailed at a much higher rate, etc. |
I agree that justice requires putting these things right.
| Leon wrote: |
| Not so long ago, your people were considered trash in America ... |
The thing is that an entire continent is populated by and governed by Africans. If one is just looking at African Americans, okay, you can invoke civil rights and slavery and so forth and create a narrative explaining why a populace which is otherwise 100% equal in capability is facing hard times, but then you've got to turn to Africa and explain why that away as well. And you can't just play the colonization card; even if we ignore the fact that colonialism was probably a long-term net benefit to Africa from an economic point of view, South Korea was more heavily colonized than the likes of Libera or Ethiopia ever were, yet South Korea today blows both of them out of the water (South Korea's GDP per capita is nearly 50 times higher than either Liberia's or Ethiopia's). Titus' racial position has a lot of explanatory power. I don't think it's necessarily 100% correct, but it's definitely not 0% correct. |
Korea is really not the country that you should use when arguing this theory. Not very long ago, South Korea was poorer than most African countries and considered to be a lost cause. North Korea is poorer than most African countries. IQ and race cannot explain these things. China also used to be dirt poor in very recent history, Singapore, Malaysia, the list goes on. Korea received massive benefits from the U.S. and received massive reparations from Japan.
Some explanations I've heard for Africa is the presence of diseases that aren't in other places, or occur much less frequently. A major one is that despite the long coastline there are very few natural ports or navigable rivers, combined with desert and jungle mean less culture being transmitted along the continent. There is also the resource curse, or the tribal culture being pushed into the westphalian nation-state system without a real sense of identity, and having tribes cut in half by artificial borders. Africa is a mess, but it is not from any one reason, but a multitude. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Korea is really not the country that you should use when arguing this theory. Not very long ago, South Korea was poorer than most African countries and considered to be a lost cause. North Korea is poorer than most African countries. IQ and race cannot explain these things. China also used to be dirt poor in very recent history, Singapore, Malaysia, the list goes on. Korea received massive benefits from the U.S. and received massive reparations from Japan. |
Koreans have sufficiently high IQ to do very well in modernity. Other conditions then have to be met. I note that the DPRK has managed to build nuclear weapons, btw. Also the DPRK has put their IQ to work at destroying the lives of their citizens. It can work both ways. Korea was incredibly backwards and dysfunctional before the Japanese occupation. Something was missing. It wasn't intelligence.
That said, it is possible for IQ to rise a limited amount within a given population in a very short period of time. There are numerous external factors that can impact it. For Africa, hope is lost, for the time being. African Americans are going to become a more dysfunctional group over time, given the birthrates differential between the right and left side of the cognitive spectrum. In Wade's book (highly recommended) he argues that the industrial revolution in England was largely a function of who was having babies. We're headed to idiocracy now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8
I guess the summary is this: All men are not created equal, there is no creator to endow them with anything, and a massive chunk of humanity, if given the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, will ruin their own lives (and the neighborhood). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Titus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Korea is really not the country that you should use when arguing this theory. Not very long ago, South Korea was poorer than most African countries and considered to be a lost cause. North Korea is poorer than most African countries. IQ and race cannot explain these things. China also used to be dirt poor in very recent history, Singapore, Malaysia, the list goes on. Korea received massive benefits from the U.S. and received massive reparations from Japan. |
Koreans have sufficiently high IQ to do very well in modernity. Other conditions then have to be met. I note that the DPRK has managed to build nuclear weapons, btw. Also the DPRK has put their IQ to work at destroying the lives of their citizens. It can work both ways. Korea was incredibly backwards and dysfunctional before the Japanese occupation. Something was missing. It wasn't intelligence.
That said, it is possible for IQ to rise a limited amount within a given population in a very short period of time. There are numerous external factors that can impact it. For Africa, hope is lost, for the time being. African Americans are going to become a more dysfunctional group over time, given the birthrates differential between the right and left side of the cognitive spectrum. In Wade's book (highly recommended) he argues that the industrial revolution in England was largely a function of who was having babies. We're headed to idiocracy now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8
I guess the summary is this: All men are not created equal, there is no creator to endow them with anything, and a massive chunk of humanity, if given the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, will ruin their own lives (and the neighborhood). |
Things are actually improving markedly in Africa, granted they are starting from a very low spot, but then again so did large parts of Asia.
I agree with your last point, except that I feel that statement is true for a disappointingly large swath of people of all races.
Titus, I feel like you don't understand the plight of others and need to check your privilege. I am only 76% privileged, but I can only imagine what somebody with your kind of thoughts would be. http://privilegechecker.neocities.org/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
Korea is really not the country that you should use when arguing this theory. Not very long ago, South Korea was poorer than most African countries and considered to be a lost cause. North Korea is poorer than most African countries. |
When African countries start regularly approximating South Korea's success, I'll concede the gun was jumped. When that never happens in your entire lifetime, will you concede otherwise? You've got this weird mix of honesty and delusion going on; you seem to know in your heart just how stupid the narratives excusing observed results here are, yet you won't just come out and concede that the narratives are wrong.
I'm completely willing to admit that errors in judgment can occur. When you've got a single country to work with, circumstances can cloud true potential. When you've got a single country + disaspora, circumstances can still cloud potential. When you're working with a billion+ people spanning the entire globe, it's becomes much harder.
| Leon wrote: |
| IQ and race cannot explain these things. |
It can't explain them entirely on its own, but a matrix of IQ, culture, and means of production certainly explains a lot.
| Leon wrote: |
| China also used to be dirt poor in very recent history, Singapore, Malaysia, the list goes on. Korea received massive benefits from the U.S. and received massive reparations from Japan. |
The key word here is "history." These countries were poor, until an influx of western technology and knowledge. A similar influx of western technology and knowledge hasn't turned things around in Africa. Yes, Korea has received foreign assistance. So have African countries. You need to explain why the results are so incredibly disparate if you want to maintain the fiction of perfect genetic equality.
| Leon wrote: |
| Some explanations I've heard for Africa is the presence of diseases that aren't in other places, or occur much less frequently. |
Europeans suffered from diseases which Native Americans did not (at least before contact). Somehow that didn't hold them back. This is narrative; reach a conclusion, desperately try to find some factor, however questionable, to explain it.
| Leon wrote: |
| A major one is that despite the long coastline there are very few natural ports or navigable rivers, combined with desert and jungle mean less culture being transmitted along the continent. |
Perhaps relevant several centuries ago, completely irrelevant now. Africans may be poor, but they've got cell phones and trucks just like anyone else.
| Leon wrote: |
| There is also the resource curse ... |
... which, again, is bullshit narration. Norway has natural resources and gets rich, we get told, "Oh, Norwegians aren't special, it's just the oil." Some African nation has natural resources and stays poor, we hear the "resource curse" nonsense. How well natural resources are brought to bear for the sake of the broader populace depends on which populace we're talking about. But that would imply actual, meaningful differences between people, so instead we get the dishonest rhetoric.
| Leon wrote: |
| or the tribal culture being pushed into the westphalian nation-state system without a real sense of identity, and having tribes cut in half by artificial borders. |
Sudan shows Africans can reformat their borders if they like, and it's not like tensions between ethnic groups is unique to Africa. I concede this is an issue, but it's an issue driven by Africans failing to come up with their own non-violent solutions first and foremost.
| Leon wrote: |
| Africa is a mess, but it is not from any one reason, but a multitude. |
I'm fine with that, so long as the specific reasons are at least remotely based in reality, and some reasons aren't a priori excluded because they might hurt someone's feelings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I scored 116. Affluent, straight, white, male, North America, no disability, ciswhateverthefk, normal height (prolly cost me a few points), put my profession at engineer, cause it seems a close approximation. Gave myself an 8 on attractiveness cause I'm jacked like a mofo. Apparently I'm privileged. And humble. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've been playing with that survey.
Jewish is more privileged than Christian. I'm surprised they had the balls. I figured they'd think a doctor is more privileged than an engineer, though an engineer to a leftist studies-major might as well be a mystical wizard who makes things happen with a magic wand (and privilege). Needs more categories. Huge spectrum between a Japanese male and an Indonesian male (or a Sicilian and a German). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
