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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| this is a supply-side view of the problem. The reason drugs are less popular in some countries vs. others is not so much one of supply, it's one of demand. |
Ha ha, well as I went on to say in the very next sentence of my post "People like to get high". I know the demand is there. It's prohibitionists that think they can erase this fundamental element of nature (not even human nature, plenty of evidence of animals altering their state of mind.) |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Sister Ray wrote: |
Ha ha, well as I went on to say in the very next sentence of my post "People like to get high". I know the demand is there. It's prohibitionists that think they can erase this fundamental element of nature (not even human nature, plenty of evidence of animals altering their state of mind.) |
The demand can vary significantly. An individuals peer group can greatly impact whether they desire to get high. Also, the patterns they develop regarding other behaviors affect this as well.
You can likely alter someones demand to get high by encouraging or discouraging certain things. I don't think that it is a constant. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| Sister Ray wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| this is a supply-side view of the problem. The reason drugs are less popular in some countries vs. others is not so much one of supply, it's one of demand. |
Ha ha, well as I went on to say in the very next sentence of my post "People like to get high". I know the demand is there. It's prohibitionists that think they can erase this fundamental element of nature (not even human nature, plenty of evidence of animals altering their state of mind.) |
Seems rather like a Western point of view. Perhaps you like to get high. I don't think the average Korean wants to do drugs. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Sister Ray wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| this is a supply-side view of the problem. The reason drugs are less popular in some countries vs. others is not so much one of supply, it's one of demand. |
Ha ha, well as I went on to say in the very next sentence of my post "People like to get high". I know the demand is there. It's prohibitionists that think they can erase this fundamental element of nature (not even human nature, plenty of evidence of animals altering their state of mind.) |
Seems rather like a Western point of view. Perhaps you like to get high. I don't think the average Korean wants to do drugs. |
The old frog in the well problem--they don't know what they're missing.  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:59 am Post subject: |
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The more I age, the more I start to dislike the whole freedom fighter movement and the drug evangelists. What happened where to the days where people just went out and got high and didn't care if anyone else did or not?
I mean, its obvious the drug war needs to be done away with, but that doesn't mean we need a bunch of door-to-door Pot pushers and the like and their "your life is empty, man" pitch. |
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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
Seems rather like a Western point of view. Perhaps you like to get high. I don't think the average Korean wants to do drugs. |
So what about booze and cigarettes? Nicotine and alcohol are absolutely drugs, the fact they are not (currently) prohibited does not alter that fact.
It's nothing to do with a "Western" perspective. As I noted, even animals like to alter their mental states. |
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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| The more I age, the more I start to dislike the whole freedom fighter movement and the drug evangelists. |
I've seen you wax lyrical on the wonders of alcohol on several occasions, recommending it as a coping mechanism and a general "good times" conduit. Slightly hypocritical position, is it not?
To reiterate for the third or fourth time, alcohol is a drug too. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Sister Ray wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| this is a supply-side view of the problem. The reason drugs are less popular in some countries vs. others is not so much one of supply, it's one of demand. |
Ha ha, well as I went on to say in the very next sentence of my post "People like to get high". I know the demand is there. It's prohibitionists that think they can erase this fundamental element of nature (not even human nature, plenty of evidence of animals altering their state of mind.) |
Seems rather like a Western point of view. Perhaps you like to get high. I don't think the average Korean wants to do drugs. |
Of course it is. And anything from the West is bad, right?
Last edited by Stain on Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Sister Ray wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| The more I age, the more I start to dislike the whole freedom fighter movement and the drug evangelists. |
I've seen you wax lyrical on the wonders of alcohol on several occasions, recommending it as a coping mechanism and a general "good times" conduit. Slightly hypocritical position, is it not?
To reiterate for the third or fourth time, alcohol is a drug too. |
Yes, we know that. We also know what the term "drugs" means in this context- illegal drugs. We know that alcohol, nicotine, tylenol, viagra, and caffeine are all drugs too. We aren't talking about those. That's obvious.
Our governments and peoples have decided to make certain drugs legal and certain ones illegal. I don't see anything hypocritical about that.
I recommend booze for people who like to drink. I also know its a deeply flawed remedy that should not be taken too seriously. I also have no desire were I in say, the Middle East to suddenly look down on the people there and declare their lives empty and lacking simply because they don't drink. I wouldn't say they need some booze. If drinking was important enough to me as that, then I would choose to live somewhere else. I have no desire to force the people who do not drink to do so, either as my friends or in society.
I also freely recognize alcohols side effects- violence, bad choices, health effects, and criminal activity.
Anyways, the way you reduce demand for illegal things is to reduce their appeal in society. Guns, drugs, prostitution, alcohol, gambling, pornography, etc. all of these things and their rates of activity follow much more closely with how such things are perceived within segments of society and how much individuals value being part of that society, rather than what the law is. That is why alcohol and drug prohibition is a mockery in some places and rather effective in others. Same with guns, same with prostitution, same with gambling.
The supply of drugs in Korea could triple or fall by a 3rd and there would be a minimal change in demand. Casinos open to Koreans on the other hand might have a different effect, likewise with changes in liquor import duties. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Sister Ray wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| The more I age, the more I start to dislike the whole freedom fighter movement and the drug evangelists. |
I've seen you wax lyrical on the wonders of alcohol on several occasions, recommending it as a coping mechanism and a general "good times" conduit. Slightly hypocritical position, is it not?
To reiterate for the third or fourth time, alcohol is a drug too. |
Yes, we know that. We also know what the term "drugs" means in this context- illegal drugs. We know that alcohol, nicotine, tylenol, viagra, and caffeine are all drugs too. We aren't talking about those. That's obvious.
Our governments and peoples have decided to make certain drugs legal and certain ones illegal. I don't see anything hypocritical about that.
I recommend booze for people who like to drink. I also know its a deeply flawed remedy that should not be taken too seriously. I also have no desire were I in say, the Middle East to suddenly look down on the people there and declare their lives empty and lacking simply because they don't drink. I wouldn't say they need some booze. If drinking was important enough to me as that, then I would choose to live somewhere else. I have no desire to force the people who do not drink to do so, either as my friends or in society.
I also freely recognize alcohols side effects- violence, bad choices, health effects, and criminal activity.
Anyways, the way you reduce demand for illegal things is to reduce their appeal in society. Guns, drugs, prostitution, alcohol, gambling, pornography, etc. all of these things and their rates of activity follow much more closely with how such things are perceived within segments of society and how much individuals value being part of that society, rather than what the law is. That is why alcohol and drug prohibition is a mockery in some places and rather effective in others. Same with guns, same with prostitution, same with gambling.
The supply of drugs in Korea could triple or fall by a 3rd and there would be a minimal change in demand. Casinos open to Koreans on the other hand might have a different effect, likewise with changes in liquor import duties. |
You don't know that.
Quit making stuff up just to hear yourself talk, little g.
And you're way off base regarding sex trafficking as well.
I hope that's a Montecristi Panama hat you're talking through. |
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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Yes, we know that. We also know what the term "drugs" means in this context- illegal drugs. We know that alcohol, nicotine, tylenol, viagra, and caffeine are all drugs too. We aren't talking about those. That's obvious. |
Actually, I wasn't talking about "illegal drugs" I was talking about "drugs". In fact, I was talking about how humans have a natural propensity to want to take drugs. The illegality or otherwise was of no relevance to the point I was making.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Our governments and peoples have decided to make certain drugs legal and certain ones illegal. I don't see anything hypocritical about that.
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Actually, that is pretty much the definition of hypocrisy whether you see it or not.
Drug A. is potentially harmful. We will criminalise it.
Drug B. is potentially harmful. We will commercialise it.
Still can't see it? |
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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| And the atwood + steelrails love fest begins. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| optik404 wrote: |
| And the atwood + steelrails love fest begins. |
Or continues. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Actually, I wasn't talking about "illegal drugs" I was talking about "drugs". In fact, I was talking about how humans have a natural propensity to want to take drugs. The illegality or otherwise was of no relevance to the point I was making. |
Well, my point was that illegality and severity of punishment doesn't always have an effect on drug demand and popularity. I don't think humans have a natural propensity to want to take drugs. I don't think they have a natural aversion to them either. I think largely the desire to take whatever drug is dependent much more on how their peers regard such things, rather than the price of drugs or their legalization/decriminalization. If their peers are open to such things, then drug experimentation is much more likely to take place. If not, then it is far more likely they will be reticent to.
This is just anecdotal, but I have seen people who either love/hate drinking or drugs and have completely different reactions to those things based on their peer group that they want to most identify with. I have seen people lay down the bottle and the j because of some girl or they are suddenly off at church camp and its a whole nother vibe. Likewise, I have seem some innocent "I'd never do that" types turn into partiers if they hang around a certain crowd long enough. Now, in all of that booze has been legal and illegal (age) and cheap or expensive and that didn't change their actions. Same with drugs. Heck something can be free and legal and they'll still have different attitudes over it based on their friends.
| Quote: |
Actually, that is pretty much the definition of hypocrisy whether you see it or not.
Drug A. is potentially harmful. We will criminalise it.
Drug B. is potentially harmful. We will commercialise it.
Still can't see it? |
That's not hypocrisy, that's weighing the costs and benefits of each drug, as well as the costs and benefits of their illegality. That some drugs are potentially fine, and others not is not some great hypocritical crime against society. After all, we are free to evaluate the drugs in question and through referendum or elected officials, change those laws. Maybe some things need to be legal. Maybe others not. I for one thing the social costs of making cigarettes, alcohol, and marijuana illegal outweigh their potential benefits. I'm on the fence with some other drugs. However, history has been pretty clear about rampant opium use, and I think a society that has a stringent attitude, both socially and legally, rather than a permissive one is an overall better place, as has been born out by history, see China.
We do that with non-drug activities. Setting off aerial fireworks and shooting your AK in the air on the 4th of July are both potentially dangerous and deadly activities. That one is illegal and the another might not be isn't some example of terrible hypocrisy, it is simply choosing which activities you want to make legal a la carte. I for one would not like to sign up for a simple yes/no package that included a complete ban on anything potentially explosive or incendiary being used for display in any form vs. Legal TNT for everyone. I want to allow my sparklers, hunting, small aerial fireworks, and bonfires, while banning Iraqi-style gun firing in the air, legal hand grenades, Great White concert style pyrotechnics by my next door neighbor, and fireworks that could leave a crater on the moon.
Lastly, the idea that increased consumption of marijuana/peyote/psilocybin/LSD/etc, will somehow lead to a more enlightened society and people is suspect at best. It may produce a positive life-changing experience in some cases. And there's an argument to be made as to whether the benefits in enabling individuals to make that decision for themselves outweighs any costs. However, the evangelistic attitude that some people have regarding these substances and their potential benefits warrants extreme caution.
| Quote: |
| And the atwood + steelrails love fest begins. |
For goodness sakes, he's like stalking me now. Unless he says something preposterous/reasonable, I'm going to not respond. He's no longer addressing the topic ever, just me. Posting on Dave's too much is a fail, which I do. Stalking the guy who posts on Dave's too much and letting him get under your skin to the degree that you post on threads just to go after him and continuously liken him to a Nazi War Criminal is just megapathetic. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Pointing out that a poster is lying is stalking?
Most on here are in the education business. Hopefully, they are combating ignorance, not spreading it. Unfortunately, you are in the opposite camp.
Stop spreading BS across and upon every thread, kind of like a Johnny Appleseed in reverse, and I'll quit pointing it out. Stop droning on like a burnt-out high school history teacher who speaks merely to hear himself speak and lets fly with whatever nonsense just came to mind and I'll stop posting about how there is nothing to support what you post.
It's just that simple, little g. |
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