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Usurname
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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 Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:28 am Post subject: If you are fired, how much money do you have to give back? |
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I understand you have to give back the airfare and recruiting costs.
How much are the recruiting costs?
I'm wondering if I should apply directly to avoid paying for the recruiting cost in case I get fired or quit early.
Where can I find a job board where a gyopo can apply directly instead of through recruiters? |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:36 am Post subject: |
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You don't have to give back anything. They might try to make you give back something, but tell them to go to the labour board or sue you and see how far that actually goes.
It seems to me that requiring someone to pay back airfare or recruiting fees is akin to setting a specific penalty for not fulfilling your contract, and that's illegal under the labour laws. |
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Usurname
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Do you have successful experience not paying back anything? |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Usurname wrote: |
| Do you have successful experience not paying back anything? |
No, I've never worked for that kind of place or had that kind of contract.
If you are unsure, call the labour board in the morning and ask them, 1350 on your phone, 5 for English if you need it.
They can tell you whether or not you need to actually pay that back. Is it a clause in your contract? if it's not a clause you don't have to pay anything back.
If it is a clause, it may be an illegal clause and you still don't have to pay anything back. |
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Overture1928
Joined: 12 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:55 am Post subject: Re: If you are fired, how much money do you have to give bac |
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| Usurname wrote: |
I understand you have to give back the airfare and recruiting costs.
How much are the recruiting costs?
I'm wondering if I should apply directly to avoid paying for the recruiting cost in case I get fired or quit early.
Where can I find a job board where a gyopo can apply directly instead of through recruiters? |
Nooooooooo. If a school offers you a contract with that sort of clause in it just forget the school all together and move on. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:42 am Post subject: Re: If you are fired, how much money do you have to give bac |
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| Usurname wrote: |
I understand you have to give back the airfare and recruiting costs.
How much are the recruiting costs?
I'm wondering if I should apply directly to avoid paying for the recruiting cost in case I get fired or quit early.
Where can I find a job board where a gyopo can apply directly instead of through recruiters? |
In general:
It is standard in nearly all contracts that if you leave or are fired before the 6 month mark you have to pay back airfare; such paybacks are ususally taken as deductions from your final pay when necessary. Public schools and some hogwans have large deposits to deduct from as well.
You can also be required to pay back recruiter's fees, if it's in your contract. (A recruiter may replace a teacher if he leaves within the first month or two but recruiters do not normally refund the fee paid.) If housing costs were speciifically incurred with regard to your employment, then these too can be deducted from your final pay or deposit.
These deductions can usually be taken from your final pay or deposit. They are legal and accepted by the Labor Office. If you owe more than your final pay or deposits will cover, you can be sued for the balance due (it would have to be a lot to be worth going after).
Predetermined penalties that do not represent an actual cost to the school are not allowed to be deducted by the labor office.
Any damages you may have caused whether physical damages to property or damages - actual losses - incurred due to breach of contract may be pursued by the school in the courts.
Specifically to the OP:
You are too worried about the possibility and ramificatoins of failure.
If you are so incompetent or inexperienced as a teacher, or so unsure about your own abilities, that you are obsessing this much about the possibility of failure in an overseas teaching job, it may be that you should just stay home.
There are risks, no guarantees and no safety net beyond your own resources.
Many people are unfit when they come here even with a university degree, teaching credentials, education major, or one of the varous esl training certificates. These things make little difference. Many people don't have what it takes to teach or live in a very different place. Others have personality problems and personal baggage that follow them wherever they go. All these types fail because of their own defects.
If your own personal limitations and the small defects that everyone has don't get in your way, you then will face a myriad of potential job challenges and general, everyday challenges that come from living in Korea. Even the best hogwan or public school, the best apartment, and the best city will throw up challenges. Finally, there is the small but real chance of facing a truly bad situation in any of the above challenges.
If you're not ready to jump in and go for it, after finding a reasonable opportunity with a reasonable contract, and if you think that you have to plan for every contingency, then it is likely that you don't have what it takes.
| Quote: |
I'm wondering if I should apply directly to avoid paying for the recruiting cost in case I get fired or quit early.
Where can I find a job board where a gyopo can apply directly instead of through recruiters? |
The best way to protect yourself is to look for a contract that does not mention paying back any fees beyond your airfare.
You should use a recruiter to find the best possible school available. Just look for a good contract and talk to a current and former teacher at the school. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Don't listen to Ontheway. He often gives out bad info (intentionally, I suspect).
It is illegal for an employer to withhold part of your pay in order to "pay back" things like this. It doesn't matter if it's in the contract or not because the law trumps contracts. You can't sign away your rights in this case. If your employer wants to claim money from you then he'd have to go to court. Even then, the courts favor the employee. It's a central principal of Korean labor law. It might be possible for them to win that claim in a court but if they just go ahead and take it out of your pay without going to court then THAT will also count against them when the court later decides on whether they owe you that money. It will also go on their permanent record at the labor board because regardless of what the court later decides, the money was still illegally withheld.
Depending on how the contract is worded then there is a chance that the plane ticket might possibly be considered a loan and that it will be written off after 6 months (or whatever time is in the contract) as a bonus. But even then, that would at best be considered a separate contractual agreement. The bonus is part of the labor contract. The "loan" of the airfare is a separate matter (as far as the court would care). The part about paying for the recruiter to find a replacement - no way it would be enforceable. Employers are supposed to cover the cost of finding employees. They are supposed to have a system ready in case an employee quits and even if for if the employee doesn't show up for work on day. That is considered the employers responsibility. Not the employee. The court would not find in favor of the employer if he tried to claim that you owed him that money. Even making such a claim would probably hurt his chances of getting the airfare from you (along with the fact that he illegally withheld your pay).
Will they try to do it? I can't say for sure but there's a very good chance that they will. Any employer who puts a BS clause like that in a contract is generally going to be shady enough to try to enforce it. If you're going to be in Korean for a while, you could fight it in court (or maybe even by simply reporting him to the LB). If he is really stubborn and willing to hurt his reputation and record then it might take a few months to get your money but eventually the court will order his bank to simply take it from his accounts.
BUT... you can avoid all of that hassle by simply avoiding places that put such BS in their contracts. If you do end up in a situation where you think the boss will withhold your last salary then just don't give notice until after you get paid. Then you only have to worry about a week or two of lost salary.
In case you're curious, recruiters generally get paid between 1 and 1.5 million Won. They might get it in a lump sum when you arrive, or a month after you arrive, or they might get it in installments every month for the first 6 months (in case you leave or get fired in that time). |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: If you are fired, how much money do you have to give bac |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Usurname wrote: |
I understand you have to give back the airfare and recruiting costs.
How much are the recruiting costs?
I'm wondering if I should apply directly to avoid paying for the recruiting cost in case I get fired or quit early.
Where can I find a job board where a gyopo can apply directly instead of through recruiters? |
In general:
It is standard in nearly all contracts that if you leave or are fired before the 6 month mark you have to pay back airfare; such paybacks are ususally taken as deductions from your final pay when necessary. Public schools and some hogwans have large deposits to deduct from as well.
You can also be required to pay back recruiter's fees, if it's in your contract. (A recruiter may replace a teacher if he leaves within the first month or two but recruiters do not normally refund the fee paid.) If housing costs were speciifically incurred with regard to your employment, then these too can be deducted from your final pay or deposit.
These deductions can usually be taken from your final pay or deposit. They are legal and accepted by the Labor Office. If you owe more than your final pay or deposits will cover, you can be sued for the balance due (it would have to be a lot to be worth going after).
Predetermined penalties that do not represent an actual cost to the school are not allowed to be deducted by the labor office.
Any damages you may have caused whether physical damages to property or damages - actual losses - incurred due to breach of contract may be pursued by the school in the courts.
Specifically to the OP:
You are too worried about the possibility and ramificatoins of failure.
If you are so incompetent or inexperienced as a teacher, or so unsure about your own abilities, that you are obsessing this much about the possibility of failure in an overseas teaching job, it may be that you should just stay home.
There are risks, no guarantees and no safety net beyond your own resources.
Many people are unfit when they come here even with a university degree, teaching credentials, education major, or one of the varous esl training certificates. These things make little difference. Many people don't have what it takes to teach or live in a very different place. Others have personality problems and personal baggage that follow them wherever they go. All these types fail because of their own defects.
If your own personal limitations and the small defects that everyone has don't get in your way, you then will face a myriad of potential job challenges and general, everyday challenges that come from living in Korea. Even the best hogwan or public school, the best apartment, and the best city will throw up challenges. Finally, there is the small but real chance of facing a truly bad situation in any of the above challenges.
If you're not ready to jump in and go for it, after finding a reasonable opportunity with a reasonable contract, and if you think that you have to plan for every contingency, then it is likely that you don't have what it takes.
| Quote: |
I'm wondering if I should apply directly to avoid paying for the recruiting cost in case I get fired or quit early.
Where can I find a job board where a gyopo can apply directly instead of through recruiters? |
The best way to protect yourself is to look for a contract that does not mention paying back any fees beyond your airfare.
You should use a recruiter to find the best possible school available. Just look for a good contract and talk to a current and former teacher at the school. |
They'll prob keep your last pay. Expect it, let em have it and move on. If they try to demand anything else, tell them to proceed to eff off and move on. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
Don't listen to Ontheway. He often gives out bad info (intentionally, I suspect).
It is illegal for an employer to withhold part of your pay in order to "pay back" things like this. It doesn't matter if it's in the contract or not because the law trumps contracts. You can't sign away your rights in this case. If your employer wants to claim money from you then he'd have to go to court. Even then, the courts favor the employee. It's a central principal of Korean labor law. It might be possible for them to win that claim in a court but if they just go ahead and take it out of your pay without going to court then THAT will also count against them when the court later decides on whether they owe you that money. It will also go on their permanent record at the labor board because regardless of what the court later decides, the money was still illegally withheld.
Depending on how the contract is worded then there is a chance that the plane ticket might possibly be considered a loan and that it will be written off after 6 months (or whatever time is in the contract) as a bonus. But even then, that would at best be considered a separate contractual agreement. The bonus is part of the labor contract. The "loan" of the airfare is a separate matter (as far as the court would care). The part about paying for the recruiter to find a replacement - no way it would be enforceable. Employers are supposed to cover the cost of finding employees. They are supposed to have a system ready in case an employee quits and even if for if the employee doesn't show up for work on day. That is considered the employers responsibility. Not the employee. The court would not find in favor of the employer if he tried to claim that you owed him that money. Even making such a claim would probably hurt his chances of getting the airfare from you (along with the fact that he illegally withheld your pay).
Will they try to do it? I can't say for sure but there's a very good chance that they will. Any employer who puts a BS clause like that in a contract is generally going to be shady enough to try to enforce it. If you're going to be in Korean for a while, you could fight it in court (or maybe even by simply reporting him to the LB). If he is really stubborn and willing to hurt his reputation and record then it might take a few months to get your money but eventually the court will order his bank to simply take it from his accounts.
BUT... you can avoid all of that hassle by simply avoiding places that put such BS in their contracts. If you do end up in a situation where you think the boss will withhold your last salary then just don't give notice until after you get paid. Then you only have to worry about a week or two of lost salary.
In case you're curious, recruiters generally get paid between 1 and 1.5 million Won. They might get it in a lump sum when you arrive, or a month after you arrive, or they might get it in installments every month for the first 6 months (in case you leave or get fired in that time). |
There's something in the culture in this part of the world that makes many become these type of manipulative bullies. So, ignore the phsycological games and stand your ground. It's all a bluff. |
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pattinsons
Joined: 28 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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1. Most contracts say you have to repay airfare if you are employed less than six months.
2. Never sign a contract that makes you responsible for recruiting fees. |
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Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ontheway gives out a lot of bad information. Ignore most of what he posts. He has an agenda to sway things to benefit his purpose. He often goes on a long rant. The rant will contain some cherry picked truths with some false information carefully plugged in. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
Don't listen to Ontheway. He often gives out bad info (intentionally, I suspect).
It is illegal for an employer to withhold part of your pay in order to "pay back" things like this. It doesn't matter if it's in the contract or not because the law trumps contracts. You can't sign away your rights in this case. If your employer wants to claim money from you then he'd have to go to court. Even then, the courts favor the employee. It's a central principal of Korean labor law. It might be possible for them to win that claim in a court but if they just go ahead and take it out of your pay without going to court then THAT will also count against them when the court later decides on whether they owe you that money. It will also go on their permanent record at the labor board because regardless of what the court later decides, the money was still illegally withheld.
Depending on how the contract is worded then there is a chance that the plane ticket might possibly be considered a loan and that it will be written off after 6 months (or whatever time is in the contract) as a bonus. But even then, that would at best be considered a separate contractual agreement. The bonus is part of the labor contract. The "loan" of the airfare is a separate matter (as far as the court would care). The part about paying for the recruiter to find a replacement - no way it would be enforceable. Employers are supposed to cover the cost of finding employees. They are supposed to have a system ready in case an employee quits and even if for if the employee doesn't show up for work on day. That is considered the employers responsibility. Not the employee. The court would not find in favor of the employer if he tried to claim that you owed him that money. Even making such a claim would probably hurt his chances of getting the airfare from you (along with the fact that he illegally withheld your pay).
Will they try to do it? I can't say for sure but there's a very good chance that they will. Any employer who puts a BS clause like that in a contract is generally going to be shady enough to try to enforce it. If you're going to be in Korean for a while, you could fight it in court (or maybe even by simply reporting him to the LB). If he is really stubborn and willing to hurt his reputation and record then it might take a few months to get your money but eventually the court will order his bank to simply take it from his accounts.
BUT... you can avoid all of that hassle by simply avoiding places that put such BS in their contracts. If you do end up in a situation where you think the boss will withhold your last salary then just don't give notice until after you get paid. Then you only have to worry about a week or two of lost salary.
In case you're curious, recruiters generally get paid between 1 and 1.5 million Won. They might get it in a lump sum when you arrive, or a month after you arrive, or they might get it in installments every month for the first 6 months (in case you leave or get fired in that time). |
Are you on drugs? Are you making up stuff just to hurt the newbies? Is it fun for you?
Go ahead. Go through all the contracts in the contract thread. How many do not require paying back airfare?
Now check Labor board decisions. When did a teacher recover for airfare that was deducted according to the contract from final pay?
You are just wrong. These deductions are taken all the time - including by the public schools, for airfare, apartment costs and damages, and recruiters fees if in the contract. Labor will not give you the money back and you will have no luck in court. Labor will not award you this money (unless there are other issues such as a serious contract violation by the employer that came first.) |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
| Ontheway gives out a lot of bad information. Ignore most of what he posts. He has an agenda to sway things to benefit his purpose. He often goes on a long rant. The rant will contain some cherry picked truths with some false information carefully plugged in. |
Get in the real world, I tell it the way it is.
As another poster said above, if you don't want to be responsible for repaying recruiter fees make sure it's not in your contract and you are fine. If you rely on the incorrect advice of the posters above, who don't use their noodles, you may find these deductions made from your final pay when you leave early for some reason.
If you want to help the newbies, you need to make it clear to them that they may end up paying any penalties they have agreed to in their contracts.
The way to be safe is to avoid the bad terms, not to assume that some government agency will be your mommy, hold your hand, dry your tears and get you your money back... They won't. Any you will lose.
Posters like those above who deny reality are the ones who end up having problems with their schools and they are the ones who mislead newbies into taking bad contracts, because (they claim) it's safe and mommy government will help.
Which means, if you want to assign causality, the intentional bad information given by nester and trog would seem to imply that they are trying to help bad schools with bad contracts get teachers, by lying to the newbies. The newbs will take the bad contracts, thinking its OK, because they will be safe, since the bad terms are not enforcable.
Don't listen to troglodyte and nester noodlemon, as they obviously are recruiters who want you to take the bad contracts they are peddling. |
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Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
| Ontheway gives out a lot of bad information. Ignore most of what he posts. He has an agenda to sway things to benefit his purpose. He often goes on a long rant. The rant will contain some cherry picked truths with some false information carefully plugged in. |
Get in the real world, I tell it the way it is.
As another poster said above, if you don't want to be responsible for repaying recruiter fees make sure it's not in your contract and you are fine. If you rely on the incorrect advice of the posters above, who don't use their noodles, you may find these deductions made from your final pay when you leave early for some reason.
If you want to help the newbies, you need to make it clear to them that they may end up paying any penalties they have agreed to in their contracts.
The way to be safe is to avoid the bad terms, not to assume that some government agency will be your mommy, hold your hand, dry your tears and get you your money back... They won't. Any you will lose.
Posters like those above who deny reality are the ones who end up having problems with their schools and they are the ones who mislead newbies into taking bad contracts, because (they claim) it's safe and mommy government will help.
Which means, if you want to assign causality, the intentional bad information given by nester and trog would seem to imply that they are trying to help bad schools with bad contracts get teachers, by lying to the newbies. The newbs will take the bad contracts, thinking its OK, because they will be safe, since the bad terms are not enforcable.
Don't listen to troglodyte and nester noodlemon, as obviously are recruiters who want you to take the bad contracts they are peddling. |
Now you are making up more lies. Trying to claim I'm a recruiter is like most of the other garbage you push. It's an absolute lie. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Now check Labor board decisions. When did a teacher recover for airfare that was deducted according to the contract from final pay? |
Can you point to a decision where the labour board was actually asked to decide that?
Most teachers would never think to ask for that because "it's in the contract"
without considering if it's illegal or not. |
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