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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| r2b2ct wrote: |
| Are you retarded? In your attempts to be so constrained and logical you miss everything. |
Combinging egalitarian ideology and the term "retarded" as an insult, are we? |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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People outside of a culture love telling people within a culture what is and isn't offensive.
Lol at people desperately trying to find the few occasions where white-face has been used, as if it's even a thing. Would any of you posters care to let me know what you find offensive/dehumanizing about white-face? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| cam83 wrote: |
| People outside of a culture love telling people within a culture what is and isn't offensive. |
Like people outside of Korean culture telling people within Korean culture what is or isn't offensive? Telling them what their cultural norms should be?
| cam83 wrote: |
| Lol at people desperately trying to find the few occasions where white-face has been used, as if it's even a thing. Would any of you posters care to let me know what you find offensive/dehumanizing about white-face? |
A Black man putting on white make up and acting out ridiculous White stereotypes is precisely the same as a White man putting on black makeup and acting out ridiculous Black sterotypes. I'm not personally offended by it because I'm not a child. Then again, I'm not offended by black face either, or by yellow face, or by more or less anything of that kind; it's all just stupid joking. I'm completely consistent, which is probably why I'm able to take it all in stride. You want to make fun of my big Jewish nose? Or make jokes about how Jews are cheap? Go for it, I don't care, and I won't try to use the Holocaust to shame you. If I'm able to laugh off absurd stereotypical representations of my ethic group, why aren't you? |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| cam83 wrote: |
| People outside of a culture love telling people within a culture what is and isn't offensive. |
Like people outside of Korean culture telling people within Korean culture what is or isn't offensive? Telling them what their cultural norms should be?
| cam83 wrote: |
| Lol at people desperately trying to find the few occasions where white-face has been used, as if it's even a thing. Would any of you posters care to let me know what you find offensive/dehumanizing about white-face? |
A Black man putting on white make up and acting out ridiculous White stereotypes is precisely the same as a White man putting on black makeup and acting out ridiculous Black sterotypes. I'm not personally offended by it because I'm not a child. Then again, I'm not offended by black face either, or by yellow face, or by more or less anything. I'm completely consistent, which is probably why I'm able to take it all in stride. You want to make fun of my big Jewish nose? Go for it, I don't care, and I won't try to use the Holocaust to shame you. If I'm able to laugh off absurd stereotypical representations of my ethic group, why aren't you? |
Sorry I don't follow you here, in this topic we are discussing black-face and how it's offensive (particularly towards black people). I'm not sure how this is is about non-Koreans telling them what to find offensive. I think you missed the point.
The bolded part is pretty much why a previous poster asked you if you were a retard... and whilst I don't think you are, it clearly demonstrates that you either lack the knowledge to differentiate between the two, or are simply ignorant to it. Either way, that type of thinking is pretty much impossible to debate/argue with. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| cam83 wrote: |
| Sorry I don't follow you here, in this topic we are discussing black-face and how it's offensive (particularly towards black people). I'm not sure how this is is about non-Koreans telling them what to find offensive. |
This thread is not about how black face is offensive. Nothing is offensive in and of itself, people only find certain things offensive. In this thread, Koreans are being (vigorously and in some cases even hatefully) attacked for performing and laughing at blackface jokes. In other words, people are outraged that Koreans are not offended by blackface in the same way they have been trained to be offended by it. That is what's happening in this thread: people telling Koreans, "Blackface is never okay, and you should be offended by it just as are we."
| cam83 wrote: |
| The bolded part is pretty much why a previous poster asked you if you were a retard... and whilst I don't think you are, it clearly demonstrates that you either lack the knowledge to differentiate between the two, or are simply ignorant to it. Either way, that type of thinking is pretty much impossible to debate/argue with. |
"Agree with me or you are retarded/ignorant/etc." That's a fairly effective tactic from a societal perspective, but it's not going to work on me. If you can't defend your case in a rationally persuasive fashion, entirely independent of emotional appeals or threats against my perceived social status, then you aren't saying anything. How about instead of that you just answer my question: "If I'm able to laugh off absurd stereotypical representations of my ethic group, why aren't you?" |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| cam83 wrote: |
| Sorry I don't follow you here, in this topic we are discussing black-face and how it's offensive (particularly towards black people). I'm not sure how this is is about non-Koreans telling them what to find offensive. |
This thread is not about how black face is offensive. Nothing is offensive in and of itself, people only find certain things offensive. In this thread, Koreans are being (vigorously and in some cases even hatefully) attacked for performing and laughing at blackface jokes. In other words, people are outraged that Koreans are not offended by blackface in the same way they have been trained to be offended by it. That is what's happening in this thread: people telling Koreans, "Blackface is never okay, and you should be offended by it just as are we."
| cam83 wrote: |
| The bolded part is pretty much why a previous poster asked you if you were a retard... and whilst I don't think you are, it clearly demonstrates that you either lack the knowledge to differentiate between the two, or are simply ignorant to it. Either way, that type of thinking is pretty much impossible to debate/argue with. |
"Agree with me or you are retarded/ignorant/etc." That's a fairly effective tactic from a societal perspective, but it's not going to work on me. If you can't defend your case in a rationally persuasive fashion, entirely independent of emotional appeals or threats against my perceived social status, then you aren't saying anything. How about instead of that you just answer my question: "If I'm able to laugh off absurd stereotypical representations of my ethic group, why aren't you?" |
Again, you miss the point and refuse to acknowledge what other poster in a the last two pages have mentioned. So it's not a tactic at all. We have agreed and disagreed about various things on this board and really don't feel the need to use such tactic. It's simply the fact that when you have a position and refuse to budge, regardless of what's being said... it does make serious debate very difficult.
As for your question, the reason why you can laugh and I can't is because of the history and pain behind those actions. Black-face doesn't mean to me, what white-face means to you. In your mind they are exactly the same thing because you are either unaware of the historical context or seem to be perfectly ok with it. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| cam83 wrote: |
It's simply the fact that when you have a position and refuse to budge, regardless of what's being said... it does make serious debate very difficult. |
I'm willing to budge, at least hypothetically, but not in response to allegations of "ignorance" or "retardation."
| cam83 wrote: |
| As for your question, the reason why you can laugh and I can't is because of the history and pain behind those actions. Black-face doesn't mean to me, what white-face means to you. In your mind they are exactly the same thing because you are either unaware of the historical context or seem to be perfectly ok with it. |
The historical context of the Jewish people has been centuries of persecution, violence, at at least one genocide within living memory. My own grandfather had to change his last name when he moved to America in order to avoid that persecution. Works like Jud Süß, the Eternal Jew, or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were far more harsh and vicious in their portrayal of the Jewish people than minstrel shows ever were of Blacks. So I'll ask again, why can I get over all of this, even laugh it off if some fool tries to use it as a point of mockery, and you cannot? Do not vaguely insinuate lack of understanding; if my understanding is deficient, correct it with precision and clarity. If you cannot, ask yourself why you cannot. If you wish me to be willing to budge, be willing to budge yourself. |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| cam83 wrote: |
It's simply the fact that when you have a position and refuse to budge, regardless of what's being said... it does make serious debate very difficult. |
I'm willing to budge, at least hypothetically, but no in response to allegations of "ignorance" or "retardation."
| cam83 wrote: |
| As for your question, the reason why you can laugh and I can't is because of the history and pain behind those actions. Black-face doesn't mean to me, what white-face means to you. In your mind they are exactly the same thing because you are either unaware of the historical context or seem to be perfectly ok with it. |
The historical context of the Jewish people has been centuries of persecution, violence, at at least one genocide within living memory. My own grandfather had to change his last name when he moved to America in order to avoid that persecution. Works like Jud Süß, the Eternal Jew (or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion) were far more harsh and vicious in their portrayal of the Jewish people than minstrel shows ever were of Blacks. So I'll ask again, why can I get over all of this, even laugh it off if some fool tries to use it as a point of mockery, and you cannot? Do not vaguely insinuate lack of understanding; if my understanding is deficient, correct it with precision and clarity. If you cannot, ask yourself why you cannot. If you wish me to be willing to budge, be willing to budge yourself. |
I'm not here to educate you on the history of black-face... Google can help you with that. What I'm saying is that you are not part of the culture in question and have no right to say what should and shouldn't be offensive to them. Likewise I don't know enough about the Jewish culture in regards to media portrayal, so I would never say what you should/shouldn't find offensive. You not being offended is not a reason as to why another person from a different culture shouldn't be.
All I can say is that if in 2014 some anti-Jewish stuff was being portrayed as entertainment by a non-Jew and you didn't take issue with it then I can only put it down to a personal choice to not care enough to be offended. But I'm not sure if I asked 100 Jews if the majority would feel the same way (or your parents/grandparents). On the other hand, I can't think of a single back person who would look a black-face in 2014 and not have an issue with it.
The part I bolded is interesting bcos I'd like to know what type of portrayal you speak of. I say this bcos black-face alone (without any type of acting of a stereotype) was seen as less than human... literally just the colour of your skin was enough to get that message across. If I understand correctly, being a Jew is religious and can be hidden. You do see how this is different right? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| cam83 wrote: |
I'm not here to educate you on the history of black-face... |
As you will, but if you cannot tell me with precision and clarity exactly of which aspects or elements of the history of blackface I am unaware, you've no place insinuating my ignorance regarding that topic.
| cam83 wrote: |
| What I'm saying is that you are not part of the culture in question and have no right to say what should and shouldn't be offensive to them. |
You're half correct. Obviously none of us can stop anyone from taking offense at anything they'd like; if you want to be offended by something, you'll be offended by it, and if some group collectively wishes to be offended by something, they will be so offended as well. But if an individual or group then demands that their sense of offense be taken as normative -- that our standards of conduct be bound by it -- then of course it's legitimate for us to demand an accounting of precisely why; many people and even many groups are offended by things which we do not accept as normative. So when I ask you, "If I'm able to laugh off absurd stereotypical representations of my ethic group, why aren't you?" what I'm doing is offering you a chance to provide such an account. You've rejected that opportunity twice now, so what am I to think except that you cannot?
I think we all recognize, deep in our hearts, that the man who transcends offense is better than the man who takes offense. I don't use slurs; I don't wear black face; I don't tell racial jokes; I don't antagonize my fellows over accidents of their birth. But when someone else antagonizes them, or jokes at their expense? I think I'm doing the best thing to suggest that one better himself before he demands that others better themselves; that one change oneself before insisting the world change itself. When one is subject to genuine oppression -- violence or denial of access to the basic means of livelihood -- then of course we should stand with them, but when it's petty matters like face paint, or crude words, or denial of access to silly cakes, or pictures of Mohammed? We're doing them a disservice if we indulge their base emotions. Consider my point carefully here if you would, and explain to me how the man who feels anger or offense in response to words or jokes is superior to the man who feels no such thing, such that we should encourage and support the former response rather than the latter.
| cam83 wrote: |
| All I can say is that if in 2014 some anti-Jewish stuff was being portrayed as entertainment by a non-Jew and you didn't take issue with it then I can only put it down to a personal choice to not care enough to be offended. But I'm not sure if I asked 100 Jews if the majority would feel the same way (or your parents/grandparents). |
There are some Jews who would go into hysterics over such a thing. My position regarding them is the same as my position towards the people in this thread.
| cam83 wrote: |
| On the other hand, I can't think of a single back person who would look a black-face in 2014 and not have an issue with it. |
That would be extremely shameful if it were true. I hope it's not.
| cam83 wrote: |
| The part I bolded is interesting bcos I'd like to know what type of portrayal you speak of. I say this bcos black-face alone (without any type of acting of a stereotype) was seen as less than human... literally just the colour of your skin was enough to get that message across. If I understand correctly, being a Jew is religious and can be hidden. You do see how this is different right? |
Being a Jew is not merely religious. I am not religious, yet that does not change my ethnicity (nor my appearance, which has some of the common marks of Ashkenazi Jews). That said, you're speaking here of the history of black face, something you just told me you would not do. Are you playing games with me here? I'm trying to be polite and take you seriously. |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Ok well let's say 'lack of knowledge' as opposed to 'ignorance'. The thing is, to give you an account or address your question (why I can't laugh at blackface), I would have to give a historical account about it and I sort of feel like if people wanted to know, they'd look it up. Yet as you pointed out, in my efforts to not discuss it's historical context, I did mention the fact that it represented being less than human. If that fact alone and a 5min Google search doesn't convince you that it's offensive, then I guess not much will.
You can't look at someone and know that they're a Jew and therefore my point is they are not comparable as being the exact same thing. You can be any race and still be a Jew and you can hide it. Or am I missing something here? I did a quick Google search but it was mainly using props (Jewish hat with the side curls of hair or about Jewish mentality).
As for the man being superior, well.... he isn't. But if something is put on as entertainment that is a reminder of the struggles and pain that their ancestors had to endure for the sole purpose of making another person laugh, whilst also portraying by colour alone, then you have to wonder why?
It's not like you can't do comedy on a stereotype without using blackface. I recall a while back Miley Cyrus dressed up as Nicky Minaj... but no blackface was needed to show who she was trying to look like. I have seen white stand up comics do impressions of black people... but they didn't need blackface. I have seen a white guy dress up as Michael Jordan using a wig, again, no blackface.
Blackface is deeply rooted in black culture. As time went on, it was banned in most western developed countries... as I mentioned earlier in the thread I'm pretty sure you can be arrested or lose your job if you did this in the US/Europe, yet the people who make these laws/policies aren't black people. The people who own the TV networks and media outlets aren't either. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| cam83 wrote: |
I'm not here to educate you on the history of black-face... |
As you will, but if you cannot tell me with precision and clarity exactly of which aspects or elements of the history of blackface I am unaware, you've no place insinuating my ignorance regarding that topic. |
Fox - did you watch the video of the Korean black face skit? It's not just the black face, but the clothing and the "ooga booga" screeching that dehumanizes the whole of the black race.
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| I think we all recognize, deep in our hearts, that the man who transcends offense is better than the man who takes offense. |
I don't think you should be making assumptions about the rest of us. Stereotypes and caricatures can be used to devastating effect when used to dehumanize or marginalize a group. That's why people are so quick to express outrage. They realize by allowing small insults or actions to go unchallenged the cumulative effect can actually influence peoples attitudes. Without people speaking out against injustice, negative cycles are allowed to continue and snowball into hideous actions.
It's not your place to decide what matters are petty, and which are befitting of action.
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| I think I'm doing the best thing to suggest that one better himself before he demands that others better themselves |
This isn't the first time you've come on here with a condescending attitude. You're telling Cam83 to better himself, yet your attitude remains as condescending as it was on the homosexual pride parade thread. You take great offense when people tell you how to think, yet that is exactly what you are doing in this thread. |
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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:16 am Post subject: |
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Latest News: (late) Michael Jackson's family members are coming to Korea! Remember what they said at the Grammy about the blackface tribute to Michael? I think Korean people better line up for serious whoop arses.  |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| cam83 wrote: |
| If that fact alone and a 5min Google search doesn't convince you that it's offensive, then I guess not much will. |
See, but there you go again; "it's offensive" rather than "I find it offensive." The language you're using is not describing the actual phenomenon. You're looking at the fact, "Fox isn't offended by blackface" and concluding, "Fox doesn't know about blackface," based on your belief that, "Blackface is intrinsically offensive, so anyone who knows about it will find it offensive." That's not sound.
| cam83 wrote: |
| You can't look at someone and know that they're a Jew ... |
Millions of Jews have been exterminated and many more have been persecuted. I don't see any profit whatsoever in continuing to discuss the knowability of other people's status as Jews. I mentioned my ethnicity to show that there's plenty of "pain" to be found in my heritage as well and show that I live by my own standards, nothing more.
| cam83 wrote: |
| As for the man being superior, well.... he isn't. |
I'm glad we can agree on that, because it's the core of my position. If the man who transcends offense is better, then surely we should all want to be that man, and surely we should do what we can to help our fellows likewise be that man. This may be harder for some that others, I'll admit that, but encouraging and supporting a sense of offense seems to me to only make such efforts more burdensome.
| cam83 wrote: |
| But if something is put on as entertainment that is a reminder of the struggles and pain that their ancestors had to endure for the sole purpose of making another person laugh, whilst also portraying by colour alone, then you have to wonder why? |
Sometimes there may be a sinister motive at work, but more often I suspect it's simple foolishness, as it almost certainly was in the example which started this thread. It's not as if I'm defending the character of the people involved after all, but malice and foolishness are bad in different ways and to different degrees. Perhaps more importantly, whether it's malice or foolishness at the core of it, the best remedy is to simply not watch.
| cam83 wrote: |
| It's not like you can't do comedy on a stereotype without using blackface. I recall a while back Miley Cyrus dressed up as Nicky Minaj... but no blackface was needed to show who she was trying to look like. I have seen white stand up comics do impressions of black people... but they didn't need blackface. I have seen a white guy dress up as Michael Jordan using a wig, again, no blackface. |
Well, I agree with you that costumes are often not necessary to make your point, but as you can see here, the Internet outrageosphere has already decided that such things also count as "blackface" as well. The more you pamper a sense of offense, the more sensitive it becomes.
| cam83 wrote: |
| Blackface is deeply rooted in black culture. |
Exactly, this is what I'm getting at here. It's not some objective feature of blackface about which we're talking, it's a subjective, cultural view on it. And I'm not entirely unsympathetic to that, which is why I don't do such things, nor admire them. But will outrage over matters like this make Koreans better appreciate Black people and less receptive to such humor? I don't think so. What will make Koreans change is nothing but this: positive, non-confrontational experiences with Black people. This is precisely why I agreed with you in this thread. Korean behavior will be better moderated through gentlemen like yourself spending time here, not by angry fist shaking over gag shows.
| cam83 wrote: |
| As time went on, it was banned in most western developed countries... as I mentioned earlier in the thread I'm pretty sure you can be arrested or lose your job if you did this in the US/Europe, yet the people who make these laws/policies aren't black people. The people who own the TV networks and media outlets aren't either. |
Blackface is not illegal in America. You might lose your job over it if an activist notices you and starts a Twitter campaign against you though. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Jazzmaster, I'm sure someone will be interested in your no doubt valuable contribution to this thread. I'm not that someone, and I strongly suspect I never will be that someone. Have a nice day. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| cam83 wrote: |
Blackface is deeply rooted in black culture. As time went on, it was banned in most western developed countries... as I mentioned earlier in the thread I'm pretty sure you can be arrested or lose your job if you did this in the US/Europe, yet the people who make these laws/policies aren't black people. The people who own the TV networks and media outlets aren't either. |
cam, ya seem like a nice enough guy, but I often cringe when you seem to speak for THE WORLD WIDE BLACK CULTURE. We've had this sort of discussion before, and no doubt will arrive at the very same place - you think I (and apparently now, Fox) are ignorant of certain aspects of history, and I think that you should chill in trying to speak for all black people. Now, that's obviously an oversimplification of our stances, but eventually that's sort of how we look at each other.
As to this issue, I lean towards Fox's stance - to me, Black face is comparable to White face is comparable to Yellow face... or any number of racial/ethnic stereo types that seem to have some need to use props/coloring. I cringe when I see that type of humor. It really doesn't appeal to me. In fact, given the choice, I turn it off, right quick. But to me, they're pretty much the same - all cheap tricks designed to degrade another group of people. I can see why some nations have banned it for historical reasons, and I can see why others haven't... for lack (?) of historical reasons. |
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