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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| r2b2ct wrote: |
Where did you get the idea that the X-men subplot was about the couple circumventing the scorn of society through court action? |
That's the broad status of homosexual marriage in our society, which in turn is the context in which these comic books are being written and published. There's nothing subtle here.
| r2b2ct wrote: |
| Or gay pride? |
You're confused about what a gratutious gay marriage in a mainstream children's comic book has to do with "gay pride?"
| Leon wrote: |
| It has been a long time since you were back in the states, though, right? |
Yes, years. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
The Archie stuff, it makes sense from a marketing perspective. I didn't know they still made them, and would not have known if they didn't pull some stunt like this. |
Back when I lived in the States, I remember there being Archie comics in the impulse purchase shelves in front of nearly every grocery store cash register in town. Was that just a Wisconsin thing? Because I thought, perhaps erroneously, that that was how Archie comics were generally distributed. It's certainly why I know of them (though admittedly I've never purchased one). |
I was a big Archie fan when I was younger. They were the only comic books I'd read. Not a big fan of superhero comics and the like. Same with the manga I'd read- Maison Ikkoku or Lum or Nodame Cantibile. No thanks to robots, mecha, ninjas, and all that.
Archie comics were usually pretty devoid of any social or political commentary. The exception was when they'd publish special issues around a big current event. I know they did a special one for Desert Storm (this shows how long ago it was when I read them) and there was the whole 'Riverdale and Back Again' in the future thing, which would go a little deeper. They would sometimes look at things like sexism, body image, adolescence, bullying, and being greedy.
With gay and guns being such a big issue, I don't see it as much of a surprise that they'd do a special issue with those themes. Certainly Archie and all the characters don't seem like the type that would want anything to do with guns. Only Reggie seems like the kind of person who would have a problem with someone being gay, maybe Moose too. As long as they developed the friendship well between Archie and the guest character, I see no problem with it.
The only part I object to is that while Archie can be self-sacrificing, usually they inject a humorous element in it. I'm not a big fan of the darkening of everything these days. He could still die taking a bullet, but there should be something 'funny' in it. Like him not being able to decide between Betty and Veronica with his last breath and his organs being donated and certain people taking up characteristics of Archie. |
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r2b2ct
Joined: 14 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| r2b2ct wrote: |
Where did you get the idea that the X-men subplot was about the couple circumventing the scorn of society through court action? |
That's the broad status of homosexual marriage in our society, which in turn is the context in which these comic books are being written and published. There's nothing subtle here.
| r2b2ct wrote: |
| Or gay pride? |
You're confused about what a gratutious gay marriage in a mainstream children's comic book has to do with "gay pride?" |
Yes, the comics are written to roughly match modern context. Gay people exist and get married. Including a gay character in a story is not necessarily gratuitous or political.
I happen to know the actual subplot. The couple has deep-seated problems with persecution in their relationship (only part of which is their sexual orientation) and one proposes marriage as a dubious solution to their problems. It actually does run well with X-Men themes. You claimed that the subplot represents circumventing the scorn of society through court action and culminates in a feel-good celebration of pride. This is not the case. It is actually much closer to your suggested version.
Also, your point about dumping identity politics on kids is wrong. The average age of comic book readers these days is mid-late 20s. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
The Archie stuff, it makes sense from a marketing perspective. I didn't know they still made them, and would not have known if they didn't pull some stunt like this. |
Back when I lived in the States, I remember there being Archie comics in the impulse purchase shelves in front of nearly every grocery store cash register in town. Was that just a Wisconsin thing? Because I thought, perhaps erroneously, that that was how Archie comics were generally distributed. It's certainly why I know of them (though admittedly I've never purchased one). |
I was a big Archie fan when I was younger. They were the only comic books I'd read. Not a big fan of superhero comics and the like. Same with the manga I'd read- Maison Ikkoku or Lum or Nodame Cantibile. No thanks to robots, mecha, ninjas, and all that.
Archie comics were usually pretty devoid of any social or political commentary. The exception was when they'd publish special issues around a big current event. I know they did a special one for Desert Storm (this shows how long ago it was when I read them) and there was the whole 'Riverdale and Back Again' in the future thing, which would go a little deeper. They would sometimes look at things like sexism, body image, adolescence, bullying, and being greedy.
With gay and guns being such a big issue, I don't see it as much of a surprise that they'd do a special issue with those themes. Certainly Archie and all the characters don't seem like the type that would want anything to do with guns. Only Reggie seems like the kind of person who would have a problem with someone being gay, maybe Moose too. As long as they developed the friendship well between Archie and the guest character, I see no problem with it.
The only part I object to is that while Archie can be self-sacrificing, usually they inject a humorous element in it. I'm not a big fan of the darkening of everything these days. He could still die taking a bullet, but there should be something 'funny' in it. Like him not being able to decide between Betty and Veronica with his last breath and his organs being donated and certain people taking up characteristics of Archie. |
Hmm. I'm reasonably familiar with X-Men, but like I said, I've never bought Archie in my life. If an evident Archie fan like you wants to tell me this kind of theme fits into the Archie series, I'll take your word for it. But, what you've described here seems to me to reinforce my main point. If special issues of Archie are expressions of big cultural trends and events, then this is surely indicative of such a trend as well. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| r2b2ct wrote: |
| The couple has deep-seated problems with persecution in their relationship (only part of which is their sexual orientation) and one proposes marriage as a dubious solution to their problems. |
This actually sounds reasonably close to my description. A couple, scorned by society, seek to deal with that through recourse to a ceremony only recognized at a national level in our country due to court action. But I like the way you've phrased it here, especially that word "dubious." Exactly, it's dubious. It seems -- at least to me -- a painfully contrived justification to get the issue of gay marriage onto the pages. If you as an X-Men reader want to say you personally think it fits the comic well, I'll accept that reasonable people can disagree on matters of thematic appropriateness, but the way you're describing this to me makes me feel my impression was correct.
| r2b2ct wrote: |
| culminates in a feel-good celebration of pride. |
An on-page gay marriage seems like quite a celebration of gay pride to me. I suppose we all see things differently.
| r2b2ct wrote: |
| Also, your point about dumping identity politics on kids is wrong. The average age of comic book readers these days is mid-late 20s. |
That's a fair point, but they are still rated for and sold to younger readers, aren't they? What's this one rated? T? |
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r2b2ct
Joined: 14 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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I don't agree that it is gratuitous or contrived, but I do think it has to do with the fact that gay marriage is a popular issue. The character in question has always been gay according to his creator (since the early 80s), and was openly gay in the early 90s. Now that gay marriage exists, why not have him get married? If you can write it well and naturally it makes sense.
I feel like you are presupposing that it is contrived simply because it is a gay marriage in a mainstream comic.
I do think the story was written with more thought and care than you give it credit, but that's my opinion. The subplot is not a one-dimensional homophobic persecution story leading to a happy gay pride celebration, but of course the comic explores homophobia a little and uses it to amplify the difficulty. The general issues are traditional relationship problems, residency issues, and the usual mutant - non-mutant issues(one is a regular human). It seemed like a natural progression for the character and a thematic match for the series. I think it works and is not contrived. Maybe you disagree.
/nerd |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| r2b2ct wrote: |
| I think it works and is not contrived. Maybe you disagree. |
That's fine. Reasonable people can disagree, and contrary to what someone suggested in another discussion recently, I'm not here to tell people what to think. I understand why you see it the way you do. Thanks for challenging me in a polite, productive fashion. I'll give your position some thought. |
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